Halo of the Sun

[Soulless-Shadow]

^
But why have 2 different names for Incubator? It must mean something else.....

Incubator and Incubus are two different things. One is the Lady in White, the other is the monster-thingo. Hence the two different names; two forms, two names.

[The Adversary]

Exactly. One version is worshiped by Dahlia; the other, idealized by Alessa. Alizer being anything else just doesn't make sense to me.

[alone in the town]

No guys, Incubator totally transforms into Incubus. The shower of blood and gore is just theater designed to make you think they're different.

[Kenji]

That's what an Incubator is, right? Something that transforms into an Incubus!

[Naomi]

Found it:
Go around anti clock wise on the Halo and you've got yourself the world's most screwed up family tree;

EDIT: FIXED (Idiot):
Dahlia + Alessa/Cheryl = Incubus/ Heather (Latin for "one who lies upon"*) + AZRIEL (aka Azrael)

Azriel (anagram out of Alizer) the Angel of death is in opposition to Samael also an angel of death.

Azriel was being hidden from the cult as Cheryl was. We just had to unlock that name one step further.

The good half of Alessa has kicked Samael out of play, a secret weapon if you like.
So where Samael should have taken that place, Azriel has moved in instead.

Azriel rules the astrological sign of Libra, one of the symbols shown on the Halo.

Metatron, Azrael ans Samael are often mention in the same texts together.

A combination of theological beliefs intertwine to make up the cult's faith.
Judaism (Samael evil Angel of death), Islamic (Azrael good angel of death) etc etc.

Sidenote: Samael's ruling Olympic spirit is Phaleg(c) (War, Mars). I need to do more resarch but Azrael's ruling Olympic spirit points to Hagith (Love, Venus)

More on the Olympic spirits (On the doors in SH1):
http://www.jwmt.org/v2n18/olympic.html

[Soulless-Shadow]

Found it:
Go around anti clock wise on the Halo and you've got yourself the world's most screwed up family tree;

Incubus Demon (Latin for "one who lies upon") + Dahlia = Alessa + Cheryly/Heather = AZRIEL (aka Azrael)

I might just be having a slow day, but what are you suggesting? Are you saying that Dahlia and an Incubus "had relations" and thus created Alessa?

The good half of Alessa has kicked Samael out of play, a secret weapon if you like.
So where Samael should have taken that place, Azriel has moved in instead.

As I recall, Samael is only ever mentioned in-game by Dahlia when she's trying to trick Harry, and then completely forgotten about in later games. Basically, Samael doesn't actually have any place in the Order's religion. Samael is just a red herring.

A combination of theological beliefs intertwine to make up the cult's faith.
Judaism (Samael evil Angel of death), Islamic (Azrael good angel of death) etc etc.

Again, I'm pretty sure Samael isn't a part of the Order's beliefs. As for Azrael... *shurgs* I wouldn't have a clue. The Order could have adopted Azrael into their beliefs, but changed it to suit them, while ignoring Samael.

[Naomi]

Wrong way round....Unless Dahlia had a lesbian relationship with an Incubus (Female Demon) that we don't know about. Thanks for pointing it out.

Dahlia + Alessa/Cheryl = Incubus/ Heather (Latin for "one who lies upon"*) + AZRIEL (aka Azrael)

Like all other dieties mentioned throughout the games, Samael wouldn't be mentioned at all if it didn't count.
The developers went to alot of trouble with all these details and making the dots connect.

The cult's idea of 'Paradise' is clearly not of the norm. And dark Alessa's determination to make sure Heather doesn't bring about hell on earth supports it.

Dahlia wants Harry to help bring them together. She knows he won't agree to "Look I'd like our kid to join together and bring in the Angel of Death, help a gal out?"
The cult worships many deities, not just the one. But I'm keeping the history relevant to the Halo itself and how it relates to the names and symbols found in it.

The evidence via many, many texts supports the connections no matter how subtle.

I prefer to go with the many solid connections over "I dunno...but I'll disagree anyway" or "Alizer is Alessa....twice... for no reason"

Anyway, I'm not finished and I'm not one to shy away from knocking down a theory if it doesn't stack up well.

[The Adversary]

>"Alizer is Alessa....twice... for no reason"<
Aside from the core concept, what about this are you not getting? No one is saying they're the same thing. Because, you know, Alessa isn't the Incubator.

>The evidence via many, many texts supports the connections no matter how subtle.<
This isn't evidence. It's a series of tenuous links, at best.

>I'm keeping the history relevant to the Halo itself and how it relates to the names and symbols found in it.<
The name Samael doesn't really exist in terms of the Order. Unless the characters spelled out SAMAEL, which it doesn't, its inclusion in the discussion has little-to-no relevance.

The biggest problem with saying "ALIZER" must be an anagram for something else is that none of the other names are written as anagrams. Consistency.

Certainly the name itself, Alizer, is derived from an anagram of Azriel or more likely Raziel, but ALIZER itself is not an anagram for something else. It's not a code, it's not a cipher. It's a name for the holy woman in white, the Incubator.

[KingCrimson]

The problem with that is no course of events exists in the first game leading to BOTH the Lady in White and the Incubus appearing (if I am remembering correctly). So, how did whoever made the Halo of the Sun even know about the Incubator, if the Incubus ending is canon?

[The Adversary]

Prophecy? The idea that all of this—god, Paradise, everything—is a manifestation, and can therefore follow what the people believe.

Not to mention we don't know what has and hasn't happened in the past.

[alone in the town]

The problem with that is no course of events exists in the first game leading to BOTH the Lady in White and the Incubus appearing (if I am remembering correctly). So, how did whoever made the Halo of the Sun even know about the Incubator, if the Incubus ending is canon?

Incubus appears by tearing itself out of Incubator's back in a mess of blood and gore. Incubus never appears by itself. Incubator must manifest first.

[KingCrimson]

^Right. Thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember if the Incubus came from wheelchair-bound Alessa or the Lady in White.

[Naomi]

Raziel?
I'll look into it. Cheers.

The consistency is admittedly annoying the hell out of me.
But then Incubus is technically misspelled and inverted, so I'm trying all angles till they're exhausted.

I WANTED it to be Cheryl. That would be canon, that would be perfect. But I cannot fit this square peg into it's round hole.

I'm a dog with a bone. I know.

EDIT:
Alizer = Alessa...many peope say it. That was my point. You said it yourself, the woman in white is Alessa ("Saint Alessa").

It can't go both ways. Names mentioned in game = Irrelevant. Names never mentioned = Miraculously the answer.

I'm not relying solely on the names themselves. It's not enough. Other symbols and texts have to be relevant. The links I provided were only a handful of what I've gone over, and frankly I think you're being a killjoy over a couple of names and a bit of fun.

[Soulless-Shadow]

Warning: long post is loooooong.

Wrong way round....Unless Dahlia had a lesbian relationship with an Incubus (Female Demon) that we don't know about. Thanks for pointing it out.

An incubus is a male demon. Succubus is the female equivalent.

Dahlia + Alessa/Cheryl = Incubus/ Heather (Latin for "one who lies upon"*) + AZRIEL (aka Azrael)

That's still kind of confusing. Dahlia > Alessa > Incubator (Alizer) > Incubus would be a simpler way of conveying it.

Like all other dieties mentioned throughout the games, Samael wouldn't be mentioned at all if it didn't count.

Like I said, Dahlia is trying to trick Harry. Notice she gives up the whole "Samael" thing once she has Alessa and God is born? No mention of Samael is ever made again after that. Well, that's not entirely true... There is one note in Origins. But given that it's the only other example of "Samael" compared to all the other notes in all the other games that talk about the Order's beliefs but don't mention Samael in any way... It's not enough proof to say "yeah, Samael is a part of their beliefs".

Dahlia wants Harry to help bring them together. She knows he won't agree to "Look I'd like our kid to join together and bring in the Angel of Death, help a gal out?"

Their God isn't the Angel of Death. She's the...what is it again? The something of Serpents and Reeds? Claudia believes Her to be benevolent and loving, despite the whole killing everyone.

The cult worships many deities, not just the one. But I'm keeping the history relevant to the Halo itself and how it relates to the names and symbols found in it.

They really only worship the one God. Yeah, She created other angels and gods (to lead people to her or something), but they're lesser gods (like Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith) who serve Her. It's not that much different to Christianity in that sense; many beings, but one main deity.

I prefer to go with the many solid connections over "I dunno...but I'll disagree anyway" or "Alizer is Alessa....twice... for no reason"

Just going by the Halo of the Sun itself, it would seem more likely that it would be Incubator than anyone/thing else. Everyone/thing else is named already (Dahlia, Alessa, and Incubus).

Anyway, I'm not finished and I'm not one to shy away from knocking down a theory if it doesn't stack up well.

I prefer to discuss than "knock down".

I WANTED it to be Cheryl. That would be canon, that would be perfect. But I cannot fit this square peg into it's round hole.

It's most likely Incubator.

I'm a dog with a bone. I know.

Nothing wrong with that. If people didn't obsess over the minor details, then this site probably wouldn't exist.

EDIT:
Alizer = Alessa...many peope say it. That was my point. You said it yourself, the woman in white is Alessa ("Saint Alessa").

The Woman in White isn't Alessa; it's Alessa's idea of God.

[The Adversary]

>You said it yourself, the woman in white is Alessa ("Saint Alessa").<
I have not. You have repeatedly claimed I said it when I've explicitly said otherwise. You're being a "killjoy" by not reading what I've said probably three times by now in this single thread.

>But then Incubus is technically misspelled and inverted, so I'm trying all angles till they're exhausted.<
Well, all the names are spelled backwards, and none of them are inverted when you read it counter-clockwise from DAHLIA.

[Naomi]

Alizer is not Alessa in any form.
The woman in white is Alessa as she would have been as an adult had she not been corrupted.
See painting of "Saint Alessa" holding a baby. See countless stills of alessa as an adult. She's not a representation of any God. She's finally herself.

I wasn't referring to any one person on Alzer being Alessa, but people generally.
But if you refer to the woman in white as Alizer, then that's incorrect.
Only Claudia produced a likeness to Alessa as a God.
Alessa only revealed her best self.
Heather is the true incubator which Alessa wants destroyed once and for all.
If Samael is the "totem" of Alessa, then perhaps Azrael is Heathers'. Opposing Angels but both meaning death at the end

Incubus = Male. I had it right the first time round. I initially wanted to look into mention or references of Alessa's father to see where it took this idea.

So I'm not allowed to mention Samael (connected to Metatron and Azral countless times in texts), but apparently Alizer as an incubator can just come out of thin air with no supportive meaning other than through Harry's one incubus/incubator choice. I was simply trying to use new ideas other connections to elaborate and tie it all together.

The "Incubas" mispelling looks to be aesthetic only. A longer word using the rune for "U" twice may have thrown off the balance of the pattern.

When I say I can throw out a theory that doesn't pan, it means I can move on to other ideas and admit errors. If by "discussion" you mean talk in circles, hold on to shakey theories for dear life and condescend. I'll pass.

I'm clearly upsetting some people because I've been misunderstood so I'll let it go.

[Soulless-Shadow]

Alizer is not Alessa in any form.

No-one is saying Alizer is Alessa. Some people have suggested that Alizer was Incubus, but that's about it.

The woman in white is Alessa as she would have been as an adult had she not been corrupted.
See painting of "Saint Alessa" holding a baby. See countless stills of alessa as an adult. She's not a representation of any God. She's finally herself.

No, the woman in white is Alessa's idea of God. God has only been shown to look like Alessa in SH3, and that's because that's what Claudia believed. Alessa is simply Mother of God. Sort of like the Virgin Mary is to Jesus; Mother and Child, but separate people.

But if you refer to the woman in white as Alizer, then that's incorrect.

How is it incorrect? I'm looking at the name "Alizer" in the context given; the Halo of the Sun, which bares the names of Dahlia, Alessa, and Incubus. They're shown, in counter-clockwise, in order of mother and child, and then Alizer followed by the being that comes from the Incubator.
Dahlia > Alessa > Alizer > Incubus.
Basically, Dahlia gave birth to Alessa, Alessa died to summon/create the woman in white, and the woman in white was replaced with Incubus after it ripped itself out of Her. So, logic dictates that Alizer would be Incubator, seeing as the names on the Halo of the Sun are given in order of who bore whom.

Only Claudia produced a likeness to Alessa as a God.

That's because Claudia believed God would look like Alessa. God's form changes depending on the person who summons or births it.

Alessa only revealed her best self.

Alessa ceased to exist once the woman in white appeared. Dahlia refers to Alessa as Alessa prior to the woman in white's appearance, then refers to the woman in white as God (just before she dies >_> ). They're not the same person.

Heather is the true incubator which Alessa wants destroyed once and for all.

Mother of God would be the correct term. Heather is only an appropriate vessel for God's birth because she's the complete form of Alessa. Alessa would be appropriate if she hadn't split herself in two.

If Samael is the "totem" of Alessa, then perhaps Azrael is Heathers'. Opposing Angels but both meaning death at the end

Like I've said, Samael isn't a part of their religion. It's just something Team Silent took from the real world and added into their game. As for Alizer (or "Azrael" as you're calling her), she's the Incubator - the Woman in White.

Incubus = Male. I had it right the first time round. I initially wanted to look into mention or references of Alessa's father to see where it took this idea.

Alessa's father hasn't been mentioned. He's not important to the story or the birth of God, though I'm also interested in knowing more about him (probably won't ever happen though).

So I'm not allowed to mention Samael (connected to Metatron and Azral countless times in texts), but apparently Alizer as an incubator can just come out of thin air with no supportive meaning other than through Harry's one incubus/incubator choice. I was simply trying to use new ideas other connections to elaborate and tie it all together.

In the context of the game, Samael is not important as he's not a part of the Order's beliefs. I've already stated that numerous times, and only because you keep saying he is. Where the name Alizer came from is an interesting topic, but just because it's an anagram of something-or-other that's taken from real world beliefs, doesn't mean the Order believed in that being in the same context. For example; Incubus. The real world meaning of incubus is completely different to the game counterpart. Besides, religions change all the time. Many incorperate bits and pieces from other religions. It's very likely that if Alizer is taken from Azral or whomever, doesn't mean it's all in the same context. Just look at real world religions as an example. Many Pagan Gods where turned into demons in some religions.

When I say I can throw out a theory that doesn't pan, it means I can move on to other ideas and admit errors.

As can I, and many of the other people here.

If by "discussion" you mean talk in circles, hold on to shakey theories for dear life and condescend. I'll pass.

Please don't put words in my mouth. By "discussion", I don't mean "talk in circles". I mean "an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate".
That's how sound theories are sorted from the tenuous ones, and said sound theories evolve. Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't realise I was being condescending. My apologises if I've come across that way.

I'm clearly upsetting some people because I've been misunderstood so I'll let it go.

I'm not upset. Like I said, I'm merely discussing. A random discussion on a random forum isn't really something worth getting upset about.

[Naomi]

No need to apologise. I get defensive and have a filthy temper...even in print. Sorry.
Ask Vixx...she's been putting up with it for years.

3 things:
Claudia, Alessa's frenemy. I call her this because she's the lousiest best friend in the world. Loves Alessa so much she'll swallow a parasite to create her likeness.
Like most people in Alessa's life, she just won't let the girl rest in peace.

Harry: There's a message scrawled on a wall that has always stayed with me. For most people it's "There's a HOLE here, it's gone now." But that's just indicating that other people experience the shift in SH reality. For me it's the message "who are you? This is a direct message to Harry from Alessa, she knows who Cheryl is, it's her other half, but here comes this new person at the same time running around town and chatting with Dahlia every now and again. Alessa is naturally nervous.
At the end Harry makes his intentions clear. He's a good guy, probably the first Alessa has ever encountered. And she rewards him with what she never had and what he can provide; a normal life.

Alessa: Here's why she's not a God/ Angel or whatever in white.
Nothing good ever came out of Silent Hill. Not supernaturally at any rate. SH is littered with good intentions. Even Alessa's final burst of power, used for good (creating Heather) is going to be doomed to fail.
As powerful as Alessa was, she wasn't all knowing, she didn't know who Harry was and she didn't know Heather was going to be dragged back into the Cult's hot mess.
We've seen Alessa in many ways; as an adult. In school uniform, in white, in torment and in the process of healing. All are perceptions, but all are her at her best and worst.
Heather contains the God, it's been passed down like a virus (which is how I perceive Silent Hill, like a disease or tumour). It left Alessa at Harry's actions and Alessa using her last burst before winking out, she passed it into the baby unintentionally.
Otherwise it'd be like Godmother part 1 and 2. Alessa the God, Heather the God 2. There's only the one being passed along, it's purpose and appearance is what's up for grabs.
Dahlia refers to her differently to what or who she truly is because Dahlia is a single minded whack job.

Perception: I'm all about it. Which is why the red herring (which it is) is so important. First deity mentioned? Samael. It set up the whole she-bang. Dahlia's perception is different to to Harry's the same way Claudia's is different to Heather's. They want hell on earth. claudia's just more forthright about it.
Dahlia knows an outsider would be horrified at this, but rather than lie..she tells the truth. She simply omits the fact that this hellish result is what she's leading him too.

Samael is a perfect example of duality. In Judaism he's a fallen Angel. In other faiths he isn't.
I'm not saying it has to be Samael/Azriel in the Halo, I'm saying that the connections I've discovered when including the other symbols so far make it that much more interesting.
(eg:Astrology, ruling colours, planets, days, animals, Olympic spirits, purposes, elements etc)

The fact that so many opposing deities are scattered throughout SH means the team wanted us to take notice of all of them even when it's a lie. The Halo of the Sun, the Seal of Metatron etc, these symbols are designed with purpose. They want us to make connections.

The cult is clearly not playing with a full deck, especially with the factions and infighting. So what I tend to focus on is the literal interpretation of these deities against their perception of them. Valtiel, the Red God, the Yellow god etc

The incubus thing is doing my head in. But the lore behind it is pretty interesting. Way back when superstition reigned supreme, a woman's accusation of sexual assault against someone would often be dismissed as a "demon attack" especially the accused was within the family. It was considered easier to blame an "Incubus" then face the fact that there were serious criminal issues.
Like you said, it doesn't make much immediate sense in the game (incubator / Incubus).

I'm going to concentrate on all the symbols. Other members have put in the hard yards working most out. Some even suggest there might be a mathematical equation to it.

The problem to is that even the Olympic spirits have different interpretations depending on the time and faith they were written in.
I may just have add all interpretations and let people take from it what they want from it.

Ideally I'd like to also finally getting around to updating my SH character connections guide (I'm only up to SH4.), a deities guide (not theoretical, just text / faith based) and an icon and symbol guide (fire, ice, wheelchairs etc)

I like to play with connections in this game, even with the remote, trivial or silly:
White Claudia Drug / Claudia Wolfe
Black Dahla case / Dahla Gillespie.
See?

I'm off to put up a Christmas tree for my son.
This day is so weird.

[KingCrimson]

Regarding Samael:

Dahlia never mentions Samael as a god, or any other being for that matter. She tells Harry the symbol being spread around town is "the Mark of Samael." We know that's a lie, since the symbol was later revealed by Dahlia to be the Talisman of Metratron (also called Seal of Metatron in Silent Hill 3).

They want hell on earth. claudia's just more forthright about it.
Dahlia knows an outsider would be horrified at this, but rather than lie..she tells the truth. She simply omits the fact that this hellish result is what she's leading him too.

Things Dahlia tells Harry regarding Samael:

1. The symbol being made around town is the Mark of Samael.
2. When the symbol is finished, a demon will be born.
3. She wants Harry to stop the birth of the demon.

All of those things are lies.

1. The symbol is the Seal of Metatron.
2. The Seal of Metatron is a protective barrier and has nothing to do with birthing a demon.
3. Dahlia WANTS her demonic vision of God to be born.

How was Dahlia being truthful in any of her communication with Harry?

[Soulless-Shadow]

3 things:
Claudia, Alessa's frenemy. I call her this because she's the lousiest best friend in the world. Loves Alessa so much she'll swallow a parasite to create her likeness.
Like most people in Alessa's life, she just won't let the girl rest in peace.

Claudia honestly thought she was doing what Alessa wanted. She says as much in SH3. She also honestly believes the thing within Heather is God, not a parasite. What she's doing might be screwed up, but she had good intentions, even if they were twisted. She wanted to bring God into the world so as to stop all suffering, or something like that. Remember, both Claudia and Alessa had miserable childhoods.

Harry: There's a message scrawled on a wall that has always stayed with me. For most people it's "There's a HOLE here, it's gone now." But that's just indicating that other people experience the shift in SH reality. For me it's the message "who are you? This is a direct message to Harry from Alessa, she knows who Cheryl is, it's her other half, but here comes this new person at the same time running around town and chatting with Dahlia every now and again. Alessa is naturally nervous.

Isn't the "HOLE" message from SH2?

At the end Harry makes his intentions clear. He's a good guy, probably the first Alessa has ever encountered. And she rewards him with what she never had and what he can provide; a normal life.

Alessa didn't reward anyone with anything.

Alessa: Here's why she's not a God/ Angel or whatever in white.

No-one's saying Alessa is. The Woman in White, or Incubator, isn't Alessa. She ceases to exist once Incubator is born. Alessa is simply a tortured little girl with a lousy mother.

Nothing good ever came out of Silent Hill. Not supernaturally at any rate. SH is littered with good intentions. Even Alessa's final burst of power, used for good (creating Heather) is going to be doomed to fail.
As powerful as Alessa was, she wasn't all knowing, she didn't know who Harry was and she didn't know Heather was going to be dragged back into the Cult's hot mess.

There's been debate about who created the baby before, but the general consensus is that it was God - the Woman in White. Alessa wanted to die. Creating Heather would directly conflict with that. Heather is all of Alessa too, not a fragment like Cheryl, but all of Alessa reborn. Also, judging by Memory of Alessa, Alessa still wanted to die, all to prevent the birth of God. Alessa clearly didn't care what happened to her so long as God's birth was prevented.

Heather contains the God, it's been passed down like a virus (which is how I perceive Silent Hill, like a disease or tumour). It left Alessa at Harry's actions and Alessa using her last burst before winking out, she passed it into the baby unintentionally.

God reincarnated all of Alessa and gave her to Harry in an attempt to ensure Her birth in the future. Why would Alessa risk God's birth just to give a baby to a strange man, even if he was the only person ever nice to her (Cheryl)? It conflicts with everything she did in-game. She called Cheryl back to Silent Hill just so she could have the power to spread the Virun VII Crest and destroy herself and the God.

Dahlia refers to her differently to what or who she truly is because Dahlia is a single minded whack job.

I agree about Dahlia being a whack job, but despite her being a whack job, she still knew what she was doing, and what was happening. She was a cunning whack job.

Perception: I'm all about it. Which is why the red herring (which it is) is so important. First deity mentioned? Samael. It set up the whole she-bang. Dahlia's perception is different to to Harry's the same way Claudia's is different to Heather's. They want hell on earth. claudia's just more forthright about it.
Dahlia knows an outsider would be horrified at this, but rather than lie..she tells the truth. She simply omits the fact that this hellish result is what she's leading him too.

Samael was a lie to trick Harry. Claudia only wanted to end the world's suffering. I'm unsure of Dahlia's desires. I've read conflicting theories.

I'm not saying it has to be Samael/Azriel in the Halo, I'm saying that the connections I've discovered when including the other symbols so far make it that much more interesting.
(eg:Astrology, ruling colours, planets, days, animals, Olympic spirits, purposes, elements etc)

I'm not saying it's not interesting. I love reading about mythology and theology. I'm just saying that while the information you've found is interesting, it doesn't all fit in with the Order's beliefs.

The fact that so many opposing deities are scattered throughout SH means the team wanted us to take notice of all of them even when it's a lie. The Halo of the Sun, the Seal of Metatron etc, these symbols are designed with purpose. They want us to make connections.

There are no opposing deities in-game. There's just the one God who's trying to be born, and then there are Her servants (Valtiel).

The incubus thing is doing my head in. But the lore behind it is pretty interesting. Way back when superstition reigned supreme, a woman's accusation of sexual assault against someone would often be dismissed as a "demon attack" especially the accused was within the family. It was considered easier to blame an "Incubus" then face the fact that there were serious criminal issues.
Like you said, it doesn't make much immediate sense in the game (incubator / Incubus).

I'm aware what an incubus is, and I'm sure many members are as well. Sure, it doesn't make sense, but a lot of things have been taken from real world stuff and changed for the game. Many religions do this.

I'm going to concentrate on all the symbols. Other members have put in the hard yards working most out. Some even suggest there might be a mathematical equation to it.

I would like to know more about the symbols. I think that would be a great idea.