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RESPECT
 Post subject: Valtiel & Metatron [spoilers, kind of]:
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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This underwent some editing on June 7th, 2010.

I almost don't want to post this because it's something I've written just now, without any notes made or outlines scripted or rough drafts conceived—just something scrawled together here in the New Topic box of a new topic, an idea I've been lingering on lately, inexplicably, without just cause, but mostly because I've been going through my books on angelology, researching unrelated matters for unrelated matters, though I've already acclimatized myself with this concept months ago, it seem'd as good'a'time as any to share—whatever of it I have to share.

Valtiel, our angel of rebirth, the "valet of God" (val = valet; el = of God), is Metatron, the "greatest of all the heavenly hierarchs."

The Virun VII Crest—also known as the Seal of Metatron—is tattooed on our hosts shoulder(s)—which is discussed in another thread, I believe, though I forget the name of it. The sigil itself is one of great power, most notably used by Alessa Gillespie in the early eighties to disrupt the power of God and ultimately destroy It. To her chagrin, it didn't work. The sigil’s power, however, does work—depending on its conjurer—as witnessed by Dahlia's concern and Alessa's use of it: If anyone could've gotten it to work, it would be her.

Now, this is only one instance of the Virun VII Crest's use, and as is noted in Otherworld Laws, found in the Chapel's library, "it will bring results regardless of whether the target is good or evil. . . ." The implication: Alessa used the Virun VII Crest to destroy God, a powerful sigil bearing the name of Metatron, "the greatest of all the heavenly hierarchs," the second-most powerful being next to God Itself.

As noted in Victim Files, provided by Team Silent, Valtiel is referred to as "the one closest to God," a title reserved for an entity so powerful it, too, is venerated as a god on its own. Selfsame with Metatron—also revered as "the lesser YHWH," and the single most powerful angel, seated alongside God.

Too much to be coincidence: That Valtiel shares the same importance to The Order as Metatron does in basic angelology and Judeo-Christian mysticism.

Another thing to note is in Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles in which it is mentioned, in some beliefs, Samael & Metatron "share the same existence"—as though they are one entity with two names; as though they are two sides of the same coin.

So, in short: Valtiel is Metatron, and the Virun VII Crest's [othername] is after Valtiel.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Last edited by The Adversary on 25 Aug 2010, edited 3 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Whoa whoa whoa there, hombre. Run on sentence!

And as I've commented on last night with my sneak peek preview of this topic, I find it all incredibly fascinating, and even less so of the "much ado about nothing" comment I previously made. So I guess all this fanboy/girlism over Valtiel is justified. :)

However, I don't doubt that the last paragraph, regarding Samael and Metatron, is bound to confuse the less observant people out there into thinking that Samael really does exist and is therefore acceptable to use its name in factual association with the games.. But oh well. Wouldn't be the first time people got turned 'round.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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The idea that the name Samael is relevant should further disprove that God is Samael. If the Seal of Metatron/Mark of Samael/Virun VII Crest is named after Valtiel's "true name," and that Incubus from Silent Hill 1 is God, then Samael/Metatron is clearly not God--because, after all: Metatron/Samael is Valtiel.

So there. God still isn't Samael.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Heh, just when I'd carved "Samael is not real" onto my brain... Now I have to scratch it out.

This is all terribly interesting, and I'd like to know which books you used as reference for this sort of thing. My knowledge of angelic lore is limited to a few History Channel specials...


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 Sep 2006
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I agree... if the hierarchy in the game is being modeled after the hierarchy in heaven, then it is entirely possible, if not likely, that Valtiel = Metatron.

Another thing to note is that Metatron is known as the angel that sustains the human race. This gives him the power to manipulate our thought processes and physical events... think of Valtiel turning the valves to change the overall environment. The only reason I faltered a little on this theory is that there is such an emphasis placed on Valtiel's ability to resurrect the dead. Metatron IS known as the highest "angel of death", actually receiving orders from God as to the souls that need to be taken on a certain day, which he then delegates to two angels that act as his subordinates. However, I guess beggars can't be choosers... this angel has pretty much unlimited range as to what he can impose on the human race. Certainly we can conclude that he definitely could, if it is God's will, breathe life back into the dead.

I will think about this a little bit more and if I come up with anything else, I will post. I examined the various roles of the seraphim angels and concluded that this theory of Metatron was the most logical.

With Valtiel having Metatron's powers of manipulation, it makes one wonder about the full role of this creature in the game! Nice post St. Thomas!

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Just Passing Through
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I made this theory along time ago (or you could say we came to similar conclusions) I will say my theory was posted completely diffrent however.


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Well, it's all about two sides of a coin, which would therefore lead one to the conclusion that they're the same, but then again, one may realize that it's also two opposite forces at play.

However, none of the two plausible deductions happen to be good enough for me--ergo, it is a coincidence as the names being coined in such a case happened to be alluding to the power of the crest (in Metraton's case) and the dissidents of the cult's naming of God (in Samael's case).

A disclaimer, though: I do accept the logic implied in the symbolism of the names--the fact that they happen to have the same strengths--gives way to such a denouement, therefore making moot my point that it's not a coincidence. It's just the fact that the creators' inconsistency in pinning down the facts (a lot has sure as hell changed since the first game) about the deities on the SH hierarchy that makes me think otherwise.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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St Thomas,

Have you picked up on any of the texts that say that Metatron is the angelic form of the Prophet Enoch?

I've studied angelology for 13 years, and the status that is given to Metatron (i.e. the way that he is seen apart from the archangels) is often attributed to the idea that he used to be human.

Enoch was the one who chastised the sinful in the days before the Flood. He therefore has similarities to the priests of the Order, who chastise the sinful and prophecise the apocalypse.

If you accept that Metatron and Valtiel are the same, then what do think of the idea that Metatron/Valtiel and Enoch are the same?

i.e. can it be claimed that Valtiel was once human, and that aspiring members of the Order have the potential to achieve the same transfiguration?

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Historical Society Historian
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Well, Walter had Valtiel implanted in his consciousness when he was doing the first 10 Sacraments, so, Walter, if anything, would be the closest to Enoch I can imagine.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Abdiel wrote:
St Thomas,

Have you picked up on any of the texts that say that Metatron is the angelic form of the Prophet Enoch?

I've studied angelology for 13 years, and the status that is given to Metatron (i.e. the way that he is seen apart from the archangels) is often attributed to the idea that he used to be human.

Enoch was the one who chastised the sinful in the days before the Flood. He therefore has similarities to the priests of the Order, who chastise the sinful and prophecise the apocalypse.

If you accept that Metatron and Valtiel are the same, then what do think of the idea that Metatron/Valtiel and Enoch are the same?

i.e. can it be claimed that Valtiel was once human, and that aspiring members of the Order have the potential to achieve the same transfiguration?

I could easily see this, especially in SH. Despite arguement if the monsters are really real, some are lead to believe that at least in certin instances that the town transformed some into monsters. However,on the other side it could all be perception, and the valtiel is said o take diffrent forms, to those it appears too.


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Quote:
So I guess all this fanboy/girlism over Valtiel is justified.

And here I was thinking I was the only Valtiel fangirl out there...

This is a great idea, St. Thomas. I think it really works, especially with Metatron in the Christian bible acting almost as God's hand in the realm man understands. It parallels Valtiel acting as God's hand outside the womb.

..."God's hand" may not be the correct phrasing here, but I'm too lazy to go find my books just now.

I wonder, though: if Metatron/Valtiel is only 2nd highest next to God, it doesn't seem right that the name of the 2nd most powerful should destroy the most powerful. Or is this because this "God" was a perverse and incomplete form, or because it was not not the "almighty Christian and true" God?

@Abdiel: to what texts do you refer? I can't say I've heard that before... interesting. I'd like to see this text.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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The Alphabet of Ben Sira by M. Steinschneider
The Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg
The Epic of Izdabur
Encyclopaedia of Religions by Forlong
Pirke Rabbi Eliezer by Freidlander


There has been an ongoing struggle between Talmudic and non-Talmudic authorities about the connection between Enoch and Metatron. The idea of a man becoming an angel was just one of the many reasons why the Book of Enoch was deemed a non-canonical text.

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A roleplay about the Valtiel Sect? Preposterous!!


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I wonder, though: if Metatron/Valtiel is only 2nd highest next to God, it doesn't seem right that the name of the 2nd most powerful should destroy the most powerful. Or is this because this "God" was a perverse and incomplete form, or because it was not not the "almighty Christian and true" God?


Or it could be because Alessa (godlike in her Otherworld) believed it had the power to do so :P

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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...Touche. However, even in those conditions, I still find it odd that she would believe God could be killed by his/hers/it's second in command. The very word "God" brings to mind an individual or power that is immortal and all-powerful. She was a child, and children kinda have this view about things that is simplistic, that wouldn't bring such complicated notions into their beliefs. To a child, especially one who had been raised in such a highly religious society, God would be defined as that all-powerful being, above all others. You've listened to the track "Prayer" from SH3, no doubt. God, according to the religion, created all things, including subserviant angels. Surely that would imply that a mere angel, no matter how high up it's position, shouldn't have the ability to take down it's master?

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BACK FROM THE DEAD, BITCHES


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RESPECT
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>God could be killed by his/hers/it's second in command.
Alessa wasn't using "Metatron" to destroy God--she's using the symbol named after "Metatron" to destroy God. There's, still, a huge difference.

>You've listened to the track "Prayer" from SH3, no doubt.
Wrong track, but right idea.

>Have you picked up on any of the texts that say that Metatron is the angelic form of the Prophet Enoch?
Yes, I have, but I don't necessarily believe it really applies to Valtiel's role: one could attribute Valtiel's human characteristics as having been a human, apotheosized as a demi-god/angel, if you will, but then there's nothing in-game, or via supplementary material, to suggest that.

But, then, I have a hard time believing that any human could transcend to angel--one instance out of three million is a bit too much. Sorry, Enoch. On top of that: Humans were revered, by God, as, fundamentally, more important--why would a human transcend to something beneath itself. I'm sure Azazel would be pissed about that, too...

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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...Touche. However, even in those conditions, I still find it odd that she would believe God could be killed by his/hers/it's second in command. The very word "God" brings to mind an individual or power that is immortal and all-powerful. She was a child, and children kinda have this view about things that is simplistic, that wouldn't bring such complicated notions into their beliefs. To a child, especially one who had been raised in such a highly religious society, God would be defined as that all-powerful being, above all others. You've listened to the track "Prayer" from SH3, no doubt. God, according to the religion, created all things, including subserviant angels. Surely that would imply that a mere angel, no matter how high up it's position, shouldn't have the ability to take down it's master?


Alessa didn't want God to be born, so it would be reasonable to assume Alessa didn't believe she was pregnant with the real god.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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That doesn't make sense. Alessa knew she was pregnant with God, otherwise she never would've "birthed" Cheryl, nor would she have gone to such lengths to destoy It.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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>God could be killed by his/hers/it's second in command.
Alessa wasn't using "Metatron" to destroy God--she's using the symbol named after "Metatron" to destroy God. There's, still, a huge difference.

Yes, but that makes it worse... why would the symbol with but his name and mark upon it be enough to kill God, then? I suppose, though, I may be over-analyzing: Heather, (arguably) a mere human, is able to kill the god in the end, too, so...
Quote:
Wrong track, but right idea.

Bah. You know what I meant.
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Humans were revered, by God, as, fundamentally, more important
Oh, I had all but forgotten about that- that's why Satan got so pissed and rebelled, wasn't it? At least, in Paradise Lost, anyway... not really a scholarly book, nor a guide to angelology, but...

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That doesn't make sense. Alessa knew she was pregnant with God, otherwise she never would've "birthed" Cheryl, nor would she have gone to such lengths to destoy It.


No, I mean that Alessa didn't believe that she was pregnant with a real god like the one in the Bible, possibly even knowing it's true metaphysical nature, thus thinking that maybe the power of Metatron would destroy a false idol like the Order's God.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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>Yes, but that makes it worse...
You're still missing the point. The Seal of Metatron was only given a name; it is not a representative of the deity. It could be called The Seal of Blueberry Muffins and it would have the same potency--albeit a more delicious potency. Remember: Its real name is the Virun VII Crest--it is only referred to as the Seal of Metatron, and that doesn't change the fact that it's only a name.

>that's why Satan got so pissed and rebelled, wasn't it?
Not so much Samael as Azazel--thus my previous reference. Azazel stood before God and said "Why should a Son of Fire bow before a Son of Clay." Angels are the Children of Fire, and humanity are the Children of Clay.

>thus thinking that maybe the power of Metatron would destroy a false idol like the Order's God.
But "Metatron," in this instance, is just another one of The Order's gods/angels.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Last edited by The Adversary on 12 Dec 2007, edited 1 time in total.

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