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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 16 Jul 2008
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If not omnipotent, then how goes god change the enviroment into the otherworld? I mean where does her power stop?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
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To Mockingbird: Satan was what I meant. So many names to remember, get them confused sometimes.

How can she be using a "nuetral source" if it is called, "the one closest to god"? If it is closest to god, then it means it is a very good being. If it was to be a nuetral source, mankind is the most nuetral you get. I don't understand why it would take so much power to destroy herself?

I gotta stop asking questions, I am just getting farther from understanding a damn thing.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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She's not using Valtiel. She's using the Virun VII Crest. The Virun VII Crest is not Valtiel.

From what I can tell, you're making the same mistake lain of the wired made on the 1st or 2nd pages. You should reread them.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Ok, I read every sinple post, twice. Still got questions :oops:

You stated that Valtiel is Metatron, & the Virun VII Crest's (othername) is after Valtiel, and again that The Seal of Metatron/Mark of Samael/VirunVII Crest is named after Valtiel's "true name", on the first page...so Vriun VII Crest IS Valtiel? Or at least Valtiel's "true name".

Also, I confused as to why they call it the Seal of Metatron when it is refering to "the one closest to god", so by that, why not call it The Seal of Lobsel Vith or Xuchilbara, because they are the beings closest to Xuchilpaba, the cheif deity. After all Valtiel is only an angel under these supporting gods. Why not use the power of one of the supporting gods to annilate the cheif deity within her body?

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>so Vriun VII Crest IS Valtiel?
No. The Virun VII Crest is nicknamed after the power of Metatron. It has nothing to do w/ Metatron/Samael, only a reference to the angel's power.

The power of an angel is not the same thing as the angel itself. You have to learn to differentiate if you want to understand. I went over this w/ lain of the wired. The exact same thing.

I wrote:
The Seal of Metatron was only given a name; it is not a representative of the deity. It could be called The Seal of Blueberry Muffins and it would have the same potency--albeit a more delicious potency. Remember: Its real name is the Virun VII Crest--it is only referred to as the Seal of Metatron, and that doesn't change the fact that it's only a name.
>because they are the beings closest to Xuchilpaba
Clearly they aren't because from what we've seen they don't do much of anything, whereas Valtiel is responsible for keeping god alive.

>Why not use the power of one of the supporting gods to annilate the cheif deity
Because the Virun VII Crest isn't using the power of Valtiel to destroy god. It's amplifying the prestidigitator's own power.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
If not omnipotent, then how goes god change the enviroment into the otherworld? I mean where does her power stop?


God doesn't change the Otherworld's environment, human minds do, and we're anything but omnipotent.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 16 Jul 2008
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Yes I understand that the town uses the minds of humans to morph the world we see in the game. But isnt that power harnessed by the god of the Order?

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Historical Society Historian
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Mockingbird wrote:
No. The Virun VII Crest is nicknamed after the power of Metatron. It has nothing to do w/ Metatron/Samael, only a reference to the angel's power.

The power of an angel is not the same thing as the angel itself. You have to learn to differentiate if you want to understand. I went over this w/ lain of the wired. The exact same thing.

I got that. I am having a problem putting my question the right way, I guess what I am trying to ask is why do they call it the Seal of Metatron if it only refers to powers like the powers of Metatron? Why not give it a different name, a name of an angel of their own faith, instead of an angel of the Christian faith? I understand that the Oreder is not real, but the developers named the seal, why name it after a Christian angel with a specific duty when they could have made something else up?Why not create a new name, like the angel Bob, who is the closest to god, and say that the the Seal of Bob uses the powers that Bob has, but is not the same thing as Bob? The same thing with the Mark of Samael, shouldn't they have anticipated that people where bound to get confused and think that the Incubus was a demon (Samael)? Did they just assume that people would be smart enough to understand that it was not the same thing?

Mockingbird wrote:
Because the Virun VII Crest isn't using the power of Valtiel to destroy god. It's amplifying the prestidigitator's own power.

Ok, I get that as well. The Crest is not giving Alessa powers to destroy god, but amplifying the powers she already had and intended to...what? She is using the same source of power that Valtiel is using to ensure god's birth, correct? That is what you mean by calling it a "Neutral Source". The power of the Virun VII Crest is nuetral, only given direction by it's user. When Valtiel uses it ,he/it (not sure if it has a sex) uses it for the birth of god and when Alessa uses it, she uses it as a destructive force, to essentially destroy herself to keep the god within her from being born.
So, the Virun VII Crest/Mark of Samael/Seal of Metatron is the power that the respective beings using it wish it to be, similar to how the appearance of the god looks like Alessa in SH3, but isn't Alessa. Alessa was reincarnated and is no longer a sperate being. I am beging to think this is a red herring treasure hunt... :roll:

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
>Why not create a new name, like the angel Bob, who is the closest to god
Why not call the god Bob then? They did what they did and we can't change that.

>She is using the same source of power that Valtiel is using to ensure god's birth, correct?
No.

>That is what you mean by calling it a "Neutral Source".
No it's not.

>When Valtiel uses it
Valtiel doesn't use it.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
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What the crap? :?

I give up. There is power being drawn, but I have no clue from who. There is a seal named after an angel, but not the same as the angel. Nevermind.... I liked it better when I was ignorant and happy. Now I am more lost than before. :evil:


I am going to go do soemthing else, carryon amongest yourselves.

EDIT: No, you know what, I am not going to give up. I am going to reread every single post again and ask more questions.



Mockingbird wrote:
>She is using the same source of power that Valtiel is using to ensure god's birth, correct?
No.

I though you said that Metatron=Valtiel, and the Seal of Metatron/Virun VII Crest was a nuetral source, so where am I going wrong?

Quote:
>When Valtiel uses it
Valtiel doesn't use it.

But it is the "true name" of Valtiel. Where does Valtiel gain his strength, or am I to assume he gains his strength out of thin air? Or god?

My problem is this:
Veltiel=Metatron.
Seal of Metatron= Virun VII Crest.
Virun VII Crest=Valtiel.

Alessa uses The Virun VII Crest to try destroy herself, a source to amplify her power. But Valtiel is working to ensure the god's birth. I am having a trouble figuring out how two seperate beings are working against each other, using the same thing, the Virun VII Crest.

Mockingbird wrote:
The Virun VII Crest--also known as the Seal of Metatron--is tattooed on our hosts shoulder(s)--

He has the Crest tattooed on him, showing his connection to the Crest. The whole point of any sigil/crest/etc. is to focus power. This would lead me to believe, since he took lengths to ensure it was with/on him at all times, he uses it to focus his power once in this world and in the Otherworld, wich I am sure is far from his normal Paradise.

Quote:
Now, this is only one instance of the Virun VII Crest's use, and as is noted in Otherworld Laws, found in the Chapel's library, "it will bring results regardless of whether the target is good or evil..." The implication: Alessa used the Virun VII Crest to destroy God, a powerful sigil bearing the name of Metatron, "the greatest of all the heavenly heirarchs,"

This implicates that it has been known to work for either side. If it had only ever been used as a tool by humans to destroy theirselves to ensure god was not born, then it would most likely be seen as a bad thing. Hense the story the woman on the tape tells to Vincent. She associates them to witches. If it is a symbol in their faith that could be used for good or evil, why would she say they used the seal to "spit into the very face of god". Why would she say this if it is named after on of thier beloved angel/gods?

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The war has begun:
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World Toilet Organization
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Last edited by Harrys_Girl on 30 Jul 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Harrys_Girl wrote:
There is a seal named after an angel, but not the same as the angel.


the name is meaningless, but the power remains the same. if you're asking why they didn't name it differently, only team silent knows and they haven't mentioned any reasons as to why the order chose "metatron" in particular.

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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Harrys_Girl, think of Valtiel as a guy that invented a powerful new missile, and the missile itself as the seal of Metatron. Anyone can point the missile wherever they like whether Valtiel throws in his support or not.

I'm probably grossly oversimplifying, but I hope that makes it a little more clear.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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It's only a nickname.

It could be called the Seal of Ted Danson and have the same effect, yet it's not actually Ted Danson, nor does Teddy have any way to amplify its power.

It could be called the Seal of Pedobear and have the same effect, yet it's not actually Pedobear, nor does Pedobear have any way to amplify its power.

See?

>But it is the "true name" of Valtiel.
No it's not. It's a parallel between The Order's beliefs and Judeo-Christianity.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
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If I get what JuriDawn is saying, the power is just out there and the Order created a seal to use the power equivalent to the power he has, is that it Juri?

The Ted Danson example was great... So if Ted was the one closest to god that seal would have the same power as Ted, but have nothing to do with him, just a catchy name, the Seal of Ted Danson.

I know I am being a terrible, stupid pain in the ars, but I just really want to get this. I want the *click* lightbulb on moment.

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The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
World Toilet Organization
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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Yes I understand that the town uses the minds of humans to morph the world we see in the game. But isnt that power harnessed by the god of the Order?


It's apparently a power intrinsic to Toluca Lake and the surrounding area, God of the Order or not.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Harrys_Girl wrote:
The Ted Danson example was great...

I prefer the Blueberry Muffins example myself. :P

As for the origin of the seal itself, I'm not sure if it was created by the Order or if they simply adopted its use for their own purposes. I suspect the latter.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Detective Cartland wrote:
Yes I understand that the town uses the minds of humans to morph the world we see in the game. But isnt that power harnessed by the god of the Order?


God has no power, since it's a product of human minds, like the other monsters.

I like this topic. This topic is cool.

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