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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Claudia also belongs to the same sect
but after ten years of inactivity--after dahlia's death--the order was heavily reorganized thanks in part to vincent's money and claudia's faith. this spiritual "rewrite" involved the worship of alessa-as-god, so claudia as a member of the sect of the holy woman specifically worships alessa.

before that, when dahlia was still alive, it seems that the two rival sects worshiped different ways with which to birth god, but ultimately they all believe in the same god.

>not only Valtiel, which we know being surely related to the theme
valtiel's duty is to ensure god's birth and to ensure the mother of god is capable of birthing of god. it is definitely the angel of rebirth, but it is not the same as xuchilbara or xuchilpaba.

that was another point i'd intended on mentioning: valtiel is explicitly stated to be an "angel," whereas xuchilbara is explicitly called a "god." there is a distinct difference, and the japanese terms are not the same in the japanese script--if they were meant to be the same, then they would be called the same.

>God itself is somehow concerned with rebirth?
god (xuchilpaba) seems concerned mostly w/ being born and venerated.

look at the japanese kami: a kami (or spirit) is only as strong as its amount of worshipers. w/out worship, the kami will fade into obsolescence. it will no longer be worshiped, shrines will no longer be built for it. a kami, also, is only worshiped if it does something for its worshipers. if it fails to deliver then no one will tend to its shrines and no one will care for the deity.

the order's god seems to parallel this japanese belief as well: w/out worship, god is powerless. w/ james' veneration, god will be pleased. . . .

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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Mockingbird wrote:
look at the japanese kami: a kami (or spirit) is only as strong as its amount of worshipers. w/out worship, the kami will fade into obsolescence. it will no longer be worshiped, shrines will no longer be built for it. a kami, also, is only worshiped if it does something for its worshipers. if it fails to deliver then no one will tend to its shrines and no one will care for the deity.


Isn't this a Catch-22? If no one worships it, it can't do anything, but it can't do anything unless people worship it.


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RESPECT
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Consider it the same as young voters: They don't vote because politicians don't do anything for 'em, but politicians don't do anything for 'em because they don't vote.

Same w/ the kami.

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Just Passing Through
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I guess I'm starting to grasp it, though I'm still pretty much confused. So I've written a number of sentences/short paragraphs regarding the religious backround of the series in light of Mockingbird's theory, which are to be assessed true or false if possible, or given additional commentary if necessary.

If anything, this post contains some unmarked Silent Hill 4 spoilers.

1. Xuchilpaba, the deity worshipped by natives, is the same deity that is later referred to as God in the Order's doctrine.

2. Back in the days, Xuchilpaba was also referred to as the Crimson One.

3. It was believed by some that by performing a certain ritual (Crimson Ceremony) in the name of Xuchilpaba, a dead person could be brought back to life. This was most likely because according to the belief system of the natives, death was reversible.

4. Xuchilpaba, however, is not to be treated simply as "a god of rebirth". The "rebirth" ritual is actually a ritual performed in order to venerate Xuchilpaba.

5. The ritual mentioned above is also present under different guises in The Order's doctrine, although it usually involves some kind of human sacrifice. It's not suggested within The Order's doctrine that the effect of the ritual could be resurrection of the dead.

6. Settlers from Europe arrive at what is presently known as the town of Silent Hill. They start to worship Xuchilpaba, a deity that's been worshipped in this area long before they came here, but they call it simply "God", because in their religion it's the name given to the chief deity. Rituals and customs of the natives are adapted and mixed with Christian theology.

7. At some point and for some reason (maybe because of Christian influence) a belief is formulated, according to which God can be born to this world and as a result mankind would be granted salvation.

8. Valtiel is a counterpart of the angel Metatron. He has a similar role in the Order's doctrine, that is being "an agent of God".

9. Valtiel might be thought of as an "angel of rebirth", being in charge of metempsychosis, which feature apparently stems from the Native tradition. Nevertheless, his nature is primarily that of "an agent of God" and he's worshipped as such.

10. The painting "Misty days, remains of the judgment" depicts a man dressed in the ceremonial robe of Valtiel, performing as an executioner. This suggests that the execution is carried out in the name of God.

11. The Red Devil that is mentioned by Innocent Walter when he's talking to an old schoolmate of his, describes Valtiel that is present in Walter's subconsciousness and enables Walter to act as an executioner in order to complete the 21 Sacraments. This is why this form of Valtiel bears resemblance both to Jimmy Stone wearing his ceremonial robe and the red pyramid thing that stalks James Sunderland when he visits Silent Hill after his wife's death.

12. The Red Devil seen by Innocent Walter is not to be confused with Red God/Xuchilbara or the Crimson One/Xuchilpaba/God. The names: Red Devil, Red God and God signify three separate entities.

13. Silent Hill 3 hints at the "rebirth" aspect of Valtiel, while Silent Hill 4 focuses on his role as an "executioner". However, Valtiel assumes such roles only because he's an "agent of God", so he acts to enable God's birth through a physical vessel of some sort.

I guess I still have some questions regarding this topic, though I don't think I should ask these questions before I know they're based on correct assumptions.


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RESPECT
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Quote:
1. Xuchilpaba, the deity worshipped by natives, is the same deity that is later referred to as God in the Order's doctrine.
Correct.

Quote:
2. Back in the days, Xuchilpaba was also referred to as the Crimson One.
It's possible that god still is.

Quote:
3. It was believed by some that by performing a certain ritual (Crimson Ceremony) in the name of Xuchilpaba, a dead person could be brought back to life. This was most likely because according to the belief system of the natives, death was reversible.
Correct, but also because Xuchilpaba is the name of the Natives' god and The Order adopted it for their own.

Quote:
4. Xuchilpaba, however, is not to be treated simply as "a god of rebirth". The "rebirth" ritual is actually a ritual performed in order to venerate Xuchilpaba.
Well, veneration can be done any number of ways. We don't know what happens when Xuchilpaba is summoned for the rebirth ceremony but it probably doesn't stick around long, otherwise there'd be no need for the Ritual of the 21 Sacraments or other ceremonies.

Quote:
5. The ritual mentioned above is also present under different guises in The Order's doctrine, although it usually involves some kind of human sacrifice. It's not suggested within The Order's doctrine that the effect of the ritual could be resurrection of the dead.
The Natives' belief-system was mostly just adopted by The Order and mixed w/ their Christian beliefs. Therefore it's not the same ritual "under different guises," but rather a number of different rituals that require the same artifacts in order to be performed.

Quote:
6. Settlers from Europe arrive at what is presently known as the town of Silent Hill. They start to worship Xuchilpaba, a deity that's been worshipped in this area long before they came here, but they call it simply "God", because in their religion it's the name given to the chief deity. Rituals and customs of the natives are adapted and mixed with Christian theology.
It wasn't until approximately the turn of the 20th Century that the townsfolk of Silent Hill began adopting the Natives' religion and forming The Order. Otherwise, true.

Quote:
7. At some point and for some reason (maybe because of Christian influence) a belief is formulated, according to which God can be born to this world and as a result mankind would be granted salvation.
True.

Quote:
8. Valtiel is a counterpart of the angel Metatron. He has a similar role in the Order's doctrine, that is being "an agent of God".
True.

Quote:
9. Valtiel might be thought of as an "angel of rebirth", being in charge of metempsychosis, which feature apparently stems from the Native tradition. Nevertheless, his nature is primarily that of "an agent of God" and he's worshipped as such.
True.

Quote:
10. The painting "Misty days, remains of the judgment" depicts a man dressed in the ceremonial robe of Valtiel, performing as an executioner. This suggests that the execution is carried out in the name of God.
Pretty much, yes.

Quote:
11. The Red Devil that is mentioned by Innocent Walter when he's talking to an old schoolmate of his, describes Valtiel that is present in Walter's subconsciousness and enables Walter to act as an executioner in order to complete the 21 Sacraments. This is why this form of Valtiel bears resemblance both to Jimmy Stone wearing his ceremonial robe and the red pyramid thing that stalks James Sunderland when he visits Silent Hill after his wife's death.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

Quote:
12. The Red Devil seen by Innocent Walter is not to be confused with Red God/Xuchilbara or the Crimson One/Xuchilpaba/God. The names: Red Devil, Red God and God signify three separate entities.
The Red Devil and the Red God are fundamentally the same thing, but the terminology (god/devil) is different because of who is perceiving it. For example, opponents of The Order consider The Order's god "the devil"; similarly, the Red Devil would be construed by The Order as the red god, Xuchilbara.

Quote:
13. Silent Hill 3 hints at the "rebirth" aspect of Valtiel, while Silent Hill 4 focuses on his role as an "executioner". However, Valtiel assumes such roles only because he's an "agent of God", so he acts to enable God's birth through a physical vessel of some sort.
True.

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Just Passing Through
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Mockingbird wrote:
Quote:
11. The Red Devil that is mentioned by Innocent Walter when he's talking to an old schoolmate of his, describes Valtiel that is present in Walter's subconsciousness and enables Walter to act as an executioner in order to complete the 21 Sacraments. This is why this form of Valtiel bears resemblance both to Jimmy Stone wearing his ceremonial robe and the red pyramid thing that stalks James Sunderland when he visits Silent Hill after his wife's death.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

Nevermind actually, I've read some old posts and I think I get it now.

So, basically:
- Walter talks about Xuchilbara, the Red God.
- Lobsel Vith, the Yellow God, is a deity worshipped within the Sect of Holy Woman and is depicted as seen on the icon at the altar. Also the 'Incubus', God that is separated from Alessa when Aglaophotis is used, looks like Lobsel Vith.
- Intervention of Lobsel Vith is believed necessary for God to be born through a human vessel. The burning ritual was performed in order to summon Lobsel Vith and thus enable Alessa to born God.
- the name "Yellow God" derives from the color of the flames.

The murale in the church in Silent Hill 3 depicts three figures: Valtiel on the left, a woman in the center, and Lobsel Vith to the right. It is interpreted that those three figures are the three deities that are worshipped by three sects within The Order: Valtiel is worshipped by the Sect of Valtiel and Lobsel Vith is worshipped by the followers of the Holy Woman Sect. As all three sects worship the same God, but they seem to put stress on different 'secondary' deities, I guess that it's safe to assume that the 'special' deity for the Holy Mother Sect is the Red God, Xuchilbara, and its image is present on the murale together with Valtiel and Lobsel Vith.

Now, if Walter is talking about the Red Devil and he means the Red God, Xuchilbara, it's because Xuchilbara is needed for the 21 Sacraments to be completed, just as Lobsel Vith is needed according to the Holy Woman Sect's way of bringing about God's birth. In the excerpt from the book of Lost Memory found in Silent Hill 3, there are two sacrificial rituals described: burning alive and piercing one's chest in order to drench the altar with blood coming straight from the heart. As we know about the connection between Lobsel Vith and the burning ceremony, it seems reasonable that Xuchilbara is concerned with the other ritual. Thus the name "Red God" would refer to the color of blood from the heart, and the importance of such ritual for the Holy Mother Sect is obvious.

The bottom line is: what both Holy Woman and Holy Mother sects have in common, is that they believe in the same God, whose birth is allowed thanks to the angel of God, Valtiel, and some kind of ritual. However, they are different when it comes to the way of achieving this goal, as they perform different rituals in order to summon two different deities that are believed to be necessary for the God's birth to succeed. For Holy Woman Sect it would be the Yellow God, Lobsel Vith, while the Holy Mother Sect worships the Red God, Xuchilbara for that reason. The Valtiel Sect, who act in the name of the closest deity to God, mediate between the two sects and apparently help them in their respective attempts to bring about the descent of God.

Would you agree with such interpretation?


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RESPECT
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I would, yes.

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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
The bottom line is: what both Holy Woman and Holy Mother sects have in common, is that they believe in the same God, whose birth is allowed thanks to the angel of God, Valtiel, and some kind of ritual. However, they are different when it comes to the way of achieving this goal, as they perform different rituals in order to summon two different deities that are believed to be necessary for the God's birth to succeed. For Holy Woman Sect it would be the Yellow God, Lobsel Vith, while the Holy Mother Sect worships the Red God, Xuchilbara for that reason. The Valtiel Sect, who act in the name of the closest deity to God, mediate between the two sects and apparently help them in their respective attempts to bring about the descent of God.

It's kind of like with the real world religions, then- Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc, all worship the same god, but put different emphasis on the "secondary" individuals (Mohammed, Jesus, etc), and follow different rules on how one goes about pleasing god. Obvious to some, I'm sure, but it just kind of clicked for me when you put it that way, humanwreck.

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I'd imagine it was made that way purposely.


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Historical Society Historian
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Well, yeah, I just meant that it finally clicked as being that way for me. No offense intended to others who've made explanations of the SH religion before, but it's usually very, very difficult to understand on the first read through. This one was very clear. So, y'know, kudos. That's all.

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Just Passing Through
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lain of the wired - I don't get most things on the first read either, so I'm mostly gathering and rewriting info found in various threads in order to understand it better. Glad if it helped somebody else though.

Mockingbird - sorry for derailing your thread a bit, I think I got the larger picture by now. And regarding specifically this thread:

Mockingbird wrote:
God is the Lord of Serpents and Reeds, the Creator of Paradise, and Xuchilpaba, "The Crimson One." However, according to opponents of The Order, god is called Samael.

Are you basing this on Syncretic Religions memo from Silent Hill 3 and the book found in a motel room in Silent Hill 0rigins, or are there any other materials regarding this matter?


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RESPECT
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There's nothing else to indicate what the opponents of The Order called the god, so, yeah--just those two.

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Just Passing Through
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I asked because I had never really bought that "God was called Samael by some" thing. I'm not talking specifically about your claim, I meant a popular belief amongst the people with whom I used to discuss Silent Hill back in the days - the belief that was grounded on nothing more than some old gamefaqs plot guides, where the name "Samael" was apparently used more often than "God" or the name of any other deity in Silent Hill universe. Anyway, it's just not really reasonable to call the chief deity the name of a lesser demon and not simply "Devil", just as the rivaling sects do when talking about each other's beliefs. If anything, the name "Samael" should rather be attributed to Valtiel, who's not the chief deity in The Order's doctrine.

But yeah, Syncretic Religions suggests such possibility, assuming the text was translated correctly, and that book in 0rigins explicitly states that God was indeed referred to as Samael, most likely by the opponents of The Order. And since 0rigins is considered canon, there doesn't seem to be much room for speculation on this.


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I disagree with the whole Red God, Crimson One, Xuchilbara being the Main God worshipped by the Order. If that were the case then it wouldn't be stated in the legend of the Genesis of the Order's god, that their God created other angels, and gods and explicitly names the Red God and the Yellow God. It is some form of the trinity to the order. 1. God (no name) 2. Xuchilbara 3. Lobsel Vith

In mythology fallen angels wanted to be gods and had humans worship them as gods. Sumerians, Greeks, and Romans are just a few cultures who worships multiple gods. So in essence angels and gods are interchangable. The only difference is that true angels are in fact messengers to their true creator.

Valtiel is Xuchilbara. The ancient people of the land worshipped the "angel of rebirth" as a god himself. They found a way to invoke the Red God aka Crimson One aka Valtiel to harness his power in order to Resurrect an individual just as Valtiel can/does resurrect Heather.

Valtiel is only called Valtiel as of late by member of the order, but to the natives he was The Crimson God - Xuchilbara/Xuchipaba!!!

I'm surprised, Mockingbird, that you have changed your stance on this subject. You did not always think this way. Plus, the way you use to feel on the topic makes the most sense and still does. It is a Silent Hill Trinity -

1. Lord of Serpent and Reeds
2. Xuchilbara aka Valtiel
3. Lobsel Vith

The only thing that Claudia changed was actually viewing the main deity as now female and since Alessa gave birth to god and then god gave birth to Heather (who is reincarnated Alessa), Claudia feels that Alessa is in fact the God or at least part of God. The legend still remains the same.

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RESPECT
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>I disagree with the whole Red God, Crimson One, Xuchilbara being the Main God
No one is saying the red god, Xuchilbara, is the chief deity of the religion. I am, however, saying that Xuchilbara is not Xuchilpaba.

>The ancient people of the land worshipped the "angel of rebirth" as a god himself.
Proof me.

>Valtiel is only called Valtiel as of late by member of the order, but to the natives he was The Crimson God - Xuchilbara/Xuchipaba!!!
Proof me.

Here's what we know: In Silent Hill 2, there is a deity called Xuchilpaba. At this point in the series' existence, there was only one god--a god that was worshiped by the natives and a god that is worshiped by The Order. Then, in Silent Hill 3, we learned that god "created beings": the red god, Xuchilbara, and the yellow god, Lobsel Vith. There is no reason for the name discrepancy between Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba unless they're different entities and always have been. The information was documented by the natives somehow--otherwise The Order would never have come into existence w/ the natives' beliefs--so there's no reason for them to change the name of one of their deities.

Explain to me, then, why Xuchilpaba became Xuchilbara. And, so you know, you cannot use the book "about syncretic religions" because it is written in regards to The Order--not the natives beliefs.

There is no explanation. Unless, of course, they're separate deities.

So, now we have Xuchilpaba (the chief deity), Xuchilbara (the red god) and Lobsel Vith (the yellow god).

>just as Valtiel can/does resurrect Heather.
Valtiel's job is to ensure god's birth and prepare other creatures for metempsychosis--as it is seen doing w/ the nurses. We know for a fact that James is "venerating" Xuchilpaba--who, in my theory, is the chief deity. Isn't it possible (and likely) that it, too, has the capability to "defy even death"? Yes, yes it is. It's god, after all.

Finally, before Silent Hill 3, there was only one god: the god that Dahlia worshiped and attempted to summon and the god that James "venerates" in the Rebirth ending, Xuchilpaba. As I mentioned above, there were no other gods, angels, &c. Just that one. Considering all of these pieces still work together, w/out contradiction, there's no reason to deny what was already presented in Silent Hill 2--the name of the chief deity.

I still believe that Valtiel is the manifestation of The Order's version of Metatron, but I don't believe Valtiel is Xuchilbara. There's absolutely no logical reason for The Order to change its name from Xuchilbara to Valtiel if it is, in fact, supposed to be the same deity--especially not when the names of said deities were already recorded for them to use and implement into their own belief system.

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Quote:
The murale in the church in Silent Hill 3 depicts three figures: Valtiel on the left, a woman in the center, and Lobsel Vith to the right. It is interpreted that those three figures are the three deities that are worshipped by three sects within The Order: Valtiel is worshipped by the Sect of Valtiel and Lobsel Vith is worshipped by the followers of the Holy Woman Sect. As all three sects worship the same God, but they seem to put stress on different 'secondary' deities, I guess that it's safe to assume that the 'special' deity for the Holy Mother Sect is the Red God, Xuchilbara, and its image is present on the murale together with Valtiel and Lobsel Vith.


Actually, do we have proof of this "each sect worships one specific god" or are these just theories? Is there something I forgot which connects the Sect of the Holy Woman with Lobsel Vith? Or just speculation based on yellow=flames, red=blood?

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RESPECT
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>It is interpreted that those three figures are the three deities that are worshipped
There's your answer.

Yeah, bit of a theory from a while ago--one that I don't necessarily agree w/ anymore because I don't believe Valtiel is Xuchilbara. It is still possible, though, that the different sects worship the different gods, but that's just speculation.

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> according to opponents of The Order, god is called Samael.

Also, according to the opponents of the Order God should be called with a demon's name, while Samael is an angel's name...

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Historical Society Historian
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Erm, I think Samael refers to a pretty shitty angel, if you want to get technical here... He doesn't seem to be regarded as *only* positive, but having some pretty heavy negative aspects to him. Nevermind that his name means Poison of God...

Also, a Google search could probably tell you as much (since Wikipedia did for me, and that's kind of the bottom of the barrel IMHO) that while Samael is/was/whatever an angel, that doesn't mean he's automatically good: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 6&letter=S

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RESPECT
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The term "demon" is synonymous w/ "fallen angel."

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