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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 20 Aug 2003
Notes left: 4728
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lain of the wired wrote:
Heather, (arguably) a mere human, is able to kill the god in the end, too, so...

You mustn't forget that the god was a improperly born, thus, not complete.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 10 May 2006
Notes left: 4658
Last seen at: My Slinky! My cuddly little pet Slinky! *sobs*
Quote:
You mustn't forget that the god was a improperly born, thus, not complete.
I didn't. I mentioned this on the first page.
Quote:
It could be called The Seal of Blueberry Muffins and it would have the same potency--albeit a more delicious potency.
Mmm... death by Holy Muffin. So the naming is but coincidence, then, as F sorta-kinda put it? Outside of the name and levels of power, they aren't really connected, in otherwords, yes?
Quote:
Not so much Samael as Azazel--thus my previous reference.
...I really must make sure I keep the books I refer to before me when I reference them. My bad. Bits from the bible and Paradise Lost get confused too often as it is- my apologies for contributing to the confusion.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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Missing since: 29 May 2006
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Last seen at: Mormons HQ
I bet even Team Silent would be surprised "what they've" done by reading this


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Good point about Enoch, Mr Thomas. But if I might go a bit Kaballahish for a moment....... (yeah, I know :roll: )


Metatron is also associated in the Kaballah with the Shekinah - i.e. the idea that when a person is born, the other half of their gender is stored in heaven as an angel and waits to be reunited with them in the afterlife. Therefore, Enoch's transfiguration is not so much a demotion in the chain of being as a reunification of the two parts of his soul.

So, it was not exactly a son of clay being turned into a son of fire, but rather a son of clay being joined with a son of fire. Metatron is therefore a Man-Angel, in the same way that Jesus was.


So, if Valtiel is Metatron in the Kaballah sense of the angel, then it can be seen as making a lot of sense (at least to over-analyzers like myself). Metatron is associated with the Shekinah - the female part of God; and he oversees the reunification of the male and female aspects. Hence the way that the Sect of Valtiel liaises between the Holy Mother and Holy Woman sects. And hence the way that the religion of the Order draws together the threads of opposing views of the nature of God.


As a symbol of unison, I would therefore use this rationale to make the claim that Valtiel was once human, or at least has an enduring human counterpart.

*ducks into bunker*

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: #lfk
In that regard, certainly, it makes sense, and I'm not denying its possibility, but, then again: There's not enough information either way to dis/prove it. One thing, though: If Valtiel were human, that would create an unusual, and difficult, conundrum to explain for Walter's subconscious. After all: Valtiel was snuck into his, as a way for the Sect of Valtiel to conjure their deity. If Valtiel were once a person, then venerated as an angel/god, apotheosized, it wouldn't necessarily need to be "snuck into Walter's subconscious," already having a vessel of its own.

Regardless: It's all a pareidolia.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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*collapses under the burden of proof* Ugh!!

Well, I'm glad I wasn't completely torn a new arse there.

I'm going to put this theory into my little black book and keep it in mind as the Silent Hill saga unfolds. It's good to think that the mention of Metatron has some significance to the series. It was my favourite reference in SH1.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 10 May 2006
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Last seen at: My Slinky! My cuddly little pet Slinky! *sobs*
He'll only give you a smackdown if you deserve it- i.e. your theory is confused and garbled, or you're clearly within your own little world, making up shit as you go. No need to be frightened. Besides, that was pretty interesting- I'd never heard of this "Shekinah" thing. I may keep that in mind, myself, for future reference. Just another reason to put the Kaballah at the top of my reading list (only to be pushed back down by school books :roll: )...

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Yeah, and it stops those pesky feminists from claiming Christianity is phallocentric, cos the whole idea of the Shekinah is that God is in love with his female counterpart and is trying to be reunited with her through the redemption of Man.

He's just a big softy, bless Him.

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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Oh, you can't stop a feminist from claiming anything. They're so cute.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Just like you can't get them to shave their armpits. Not so cute.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 12 Sep 2006
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Last seen at: Wandering the Town
Just a thought, but since the god is to be conceived by Heather (Like Jesus was conceived by Mary), doesn't this make the god mortal the same way that Jesus was the Christian God's mortal form on earth? And just as Jesus can be killed, as he obviously is, doesn't it make sense that the cult's god can be killed while in this vulnerable, mortal state? Even if it is to his second in command Metatron.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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It can be killed anyway in it's post-birth state. It's not a real God.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 20 Aug 2003
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Loner wrote:
... doesn't this make the god mortal the same way that Jesus was the Christian God's mortal form on earth?

No. With the birth of God comes mans salvation and the creation of Paradise.

It was improperly born. That's why Heather can kill it.

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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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Last seen at: Traversing the Portals of Reality
Exactly. If God had been brought about "the right way", and who's got the right idea about that within the Order remains a mystery to me, they all seem to have the wrong idea, then no one would have been able to kill it.

Also, it is noteworthy to point out that Jesus, while a mortal when He was on Earth, was both God and Man. Jesus allowed Himself to be killed. While on the cross, He could have commanded a host of angels to free Him, and I'm sure there was such a host standing by awaiting such a call, but He didn't, because that was His purpose, that very moment was why He came to Earth in the first place. You all know that story, so I won't go too far into that, but the point is, you can't really compare them in the sense that they were mortal.

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Historical Society Historian
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[quote=B5160-R]With the birth of God comes mans salvation and the creation of Paradise. [/quote] I think that's where he got the idea that the god was similar to the Christian Jesus. Upon his birth, man was offered a chance for eventual salvation and entry into paradise. The similarities end where Jesus had to be sacrificed before that could happen, whereas the god was supposed to bring it about simply upon the instance of its birth. jthomp also brings up a good point, though one would hope it to be a semi-self evident one: Jesus' purpose was to die, the god's purpose was to live. Kinda puts 'em at cross-purposes for comparison's sake...

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BACK FROM THE DEAD, BITCHES


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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Last seen at: Traversing the Portals of Reality
lain of the wired wrote:
jthomp also brings up a good point, though one would hope it to be a semi-self evident one: Jesus' purpose was to die, the god's purpose was to live. Kinda puts 'em at cross-purposes for comparison's sake...


That was exactly my point.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2007
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Last seen at: Sweden, "The Great North"
Just a thought, but as I've understood by reading the posts here Alessa could've killed the God with the Metatron crest? But that same crest is used in SH3 and it doesn't appear to have any effect at all. This confuses me. TheAdversary, or anyone else, care to shed some light on this? Or perhaps guide me to a thread that discusses this?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Well, the Metatron crest, like everything else in Otherworld, gets it's power from the human mind. Specifically, the human mind that created the Otherworld.

Think of it this way. The only way Algaophotis has the powers it does is because Alessa believed it had those powers, so it did. Furthermore, she believed in the powers of the Metatron Crest, so her beliefs that it could kill God came true.

However, after Alessa reincarnates, she becomes Heather, who has almost no religious or supernatural beliefs and grew up with a scientific, logical paradigm than a religious one. Thus, since she doesn't believe that a stupid trinket can kill anything, much less a deity, it possesses absolutely no power. (As for the Algaophotis she swallowed, she probably believed it would help her because of her absolute faith in her father.)

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Algaophotis has the powers it does is because Alessa believed it had those powers
I strongly disagree. Heather didn't believe in anything, yet the aglaophotis worked fine for her.

I think people need to stop thinking of everything in the games as a manifestation or delusion: it cheapens the series. It's the same argument as "SILENT HILL CAN DO ANYTHING BECAUSE ITS ILENT HILL" and that's just dumb--we all give people like that shit. It's called "suspension of disbelief."

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2007
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AuraTwilight wrote:
However, after Alessa reincarnates, she becomes Heather, who has almost no religious or supernatural beliefs and grew up with a scientific, logical paradigm than a religious one. Thus, since she doesn't believe that a stupid trinket can kill anything, much less a deity, it possesses absolutely no power. (As for the Algaophotis she swallowed, she probably believed it would help her because of her absolute faith in her father.)


That makes sense! :D I understand now. So technically, since Vincent believed that the seal could work, he could have used it himself and thus killed the God? Or perhaps not, since he didn't create the Other World since Alessa did that and she also had magical powers. Then perhaps Claudia could have used it if she wanted to (but she would never have, since we know what she stands for) since she had simillar powers like Alessa? What do you think?

EDIT:
The Adversary wrote:
I think people need to stop thinking of everything in the games as a manifestation or delusion


It's a little hard don't you think since many things in the Silent Hill games appears to be something completely different than it appears to be (The Samael case for example, since it doesn't exist at all. The Seal of Metatron/Mark of Samael example is a good one as well)?

What I mean is that it is quite hard to understand what appears to be true and what doesn't and since much of it appears to be delusions (The God's different images changes because of the summoner) ... you know that kind of things.

SECOND EDIT:
The Adversary wrote:
It's called "suspension of disbelief."


I strongly agree on that point. :D

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Movie-Director Erik Birger Karlsson (Formely Known as "Berra").

Check out Birger Pictures (www.youtube.com/user/BirgerPictures) on YouTube for all of my movies.

[img]http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb1/Berra87/sig62607.jpg[/img]


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