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The Adversary wrote:
The idea that the name Samael is relevant should further disprove that God is Samael. If the Seal of Metatron/Mark of Samael/Virun VII Crest is named after Valtiel's "true name," and that Incubus from Silent Hill 1 is God, then Samael/Metatron is clearly not God--because, after all: Metatron/Samael is Valtiel.

So there. God still isn't Samael.


isn’t valtiel and Xuchilpaba the same being.


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Historical Society Historian
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I think people need to stop thinking of everything in the games as a manifestation or delusion: it cheapens the series. It's the same argument as "SILENT HILL CAN DO ANYTHING BECAUSE ITS ILENT HILL" and that's just dumb--we all give people like that shit. It's called "suspension of disbelief."


I'm not saying everything is a delusion, and it's not the same arguement as "ANYTHING = SILENT HILL." From what I've observed, every phenomena of Silent Hill can be traced back to the human mind and whatever power is at work in Silent Hill, so I don't see how it cheapens the series or ruins anything.

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I understand now. So technically, since Vincent believed that the seal could work, he could have used it himself and thus killed the God? Or perhaps not, since he didn't create the Other World since Alessa did that and she also had magical powers. Then perhaps Claudia could have used it if she wanted to (but she would never have, since we know what she stands for) since she had simillar powers like Alessa? What do you think?


In SH3, Otherworld seems to be created between Heather/Alessa and Claudia, so it would have to be one of them who alters "the rules", so no, Vincent wouldn't be able to do it. Only Heather could give it any power. Claudia could theoretically use it, since she has lesser psychic powers and is atleast partly manipulating Otherworld.

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isn’t valtiel and Xuchilpaba the same being.


I don't think so.

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hollywood-01 wrote:
isn’t valtiel and Xuchilpaba the same being.

I do think so. From this thread:
The Adversary wrote:
This is a very short explanation as to why Valtiel is the red god, Xuchilbara.

To put it very simply, think of Xuchilbara's role in Silent Hill 2. Now, think of Valtiel's role in Silent Hill 3. What common trait do these two names share? They share rebirth as their function. In SH2, James rows to the island with Mary to resurrect her; in SH3, Valtiel ensures Heather is alive so that she may birth God--if she dies, Valtiel comes along and brings her back to life.

We learn in the Chapel's library that "no religion remains unchanged. This is no exception." In this case, I believe they're referring not only to its belief-system, but also its gods. This book about syncretic religions is similar to the book of Lost Memory: They are not written by The Order. They are, in essence, history books detailing the religion The Order is based on, the towns history, sacred rituals, &c. If you'll notice--which I'm sure you have--the red god is referred to by name twice in the series. Once, in the book of Lost Memory: Xuchilpaba. Secondly, in the Painting 4.Creation: Xuchilbara. This is the first example that "no religion remains unchanged." A slight change, yes, but an altercation from their beliefs.

Valtiel is the next step forward. Another name-change.

They both have the same role in The Order's beliefs, but they, The Order, simply gave it a new name. Valtiel does have a presence in Silent Hill 1, but, regretfully, no one knew about it. The hooded figures seen throughout are there wearing the ceremonial robes "in honor of Valtiel." And, by the timeline I've presented, you'll notice that approximately the same time as Alessa's birthing-ritual, Walter Sullivan has had Valtiel sneak'd into his subconscious. Valtiel may not be there physically, but it is definitely present.

On a side-note: I have a theory that the three Sects of The Order each focus their worship on a different diety. The Sect of Valtiel is obvious; as is the Sect of the Holy Mother--their worship is centered on God. The Sect of the Holy Woman--that Dahlia & Claudia belonged to--worshipped the yellow god, Lobsel Vith, and its image is that of the Incubus.

That's mostly unrelated, but it does explain why God, Incubus, and Valtiel are all seen in the murals throughout the Chapel.

Anyway. I hope that answered your question concerning Valtiel & Xuchilbara. They are the same entity; they share the same role. Xuchilbara was just given the name Valtiel by The Order to fit with their beliefs, which is different from what it's based on.


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Yes I knew it, I heard some people talking to me about it but I was not sure if it was true, but that information about it is true. Thanks and sorry for being so rude.


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RESPECT
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Metempsychosising.

I'd like to take a moment by reviving this thread to asseverate that I no longer believe Valtiel is the red god, Xuchilbara. I retract any statements within this thread or others in which I indicate otherwise.

That is all.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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So... who do you think is the red god, if anything/one?

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Xuchilbara. That's about it. An "offspring" of Xuchilpaba--not to be confused with Xuchilbara, the red god--the name of The Order's chief deity, "The Creator of Paradise" and "Lord of Serpents and Reeds."

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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So, now Xuchilbara is just Xuchilbara, and Valtiel is just Valtiel?
Man, I really have been gone a while...

So does that mean Lobsel Vith is just Lobsel Vith?
Was there ever a general consensus as to what the Yellow God was 'supposed' to be (if anything?)


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Valtiel is Metatron.

So.

- God is the Lord of Serpents and Reeds, the Creator of Paradise, and Xuchilpaba, "The Crimson One." However, according to opponents of The Order, god is called Samael.

- Valtiel is equivalent to the Judeo-Christian Metatron/Samael, as this thread is primarily about, a "Heavenly Messenger" (or "tenshi"), and the angel of rebirth.

- Xuchilbara is the red god, an "offspring" of Xuchilpaba.

- Lobsel Vith is the yellow god and looks like Incubus.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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So...Lobsel Vith looks like the Incubus, but isn't, because the Incubus is actually God.
Right?

If Metatron is Valtiel, why would the Seal of Metatron stop God?
I mean, if he was a 'fallen angel', then, maybe... but aren't we still going with the theory that Valtiel is the 'Valet of God', like he's there to ensure his birth, rather than prevent it?


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>Right?
Correct.

>why would the Seal of Metatron stop God?
Please read through this thread. Lain of the Wired asked this.

>aren't we still going with the theory that Valtiel is the 'Valet of God'
That's not a theory, but the discussion between Lain and me explains your previous question thoroughly.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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I hadn't even read the beginning of this thread.
Wow.
That's pretty awesome.

I had no idea you were The Adversary. In italics.


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Yep, it's me. New season, new name. . . . More or less. I suppose the new avatar didn't help to distinguish my identity--especially because it's my first Silent Hill-oriented avatar in eight years!

I've been meaning to revise/rewrite this, but I haven't yet. Maybe tonight since I'm mostly done with finals and I'll probably be up all night anyway.

Due to this new development concerning Xuchilbara I have so much of stuff to rework it's ridiculous. Stupid red god.

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> Alessa wasn't using "Metatron" to destroy God

Doesn't Valtiel have the Virun VII Crest tatooed on its arms?
If so, why would he be related to something that contrasts God?
If those tattooes represent something else, than what is it?


> Xuchilbara is the red god, an "offspring" of Xuchilpaba

Where does these (Xuchilbara offspring of Xuchilpaba) news come from? ^^

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Historical Society Historian
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Doesn't Valtiel have the Virun VII Crest tatooed on its arms?
If so, why would he be related to something that contrasts God?
If those tattooes represent something else, than what is it?


The keyword here is "wasn't".

Quote:
Where does these (Xuchilbara offspring of Xuchilpaba) news come from? ^^


I'm pretty sure he already said that earlier in the thread.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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> The keyword here is "wasn't".

Explain please.


> I'm pretty sure he already said that earlier in the thread.

I don't want to look lame, but I can't find it.


> Lobsel Vith is the yellow god and looks like Incubus.

He "look like the Incubus", because Dahlia worships Lobsel Vith, and we see the Incubus in SH1 as Dahlia's image of God, or for some other reasons?

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RESPECT
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everything you've asked has been covered in this topic or another. look specifically for the discussion between lain of the wired and me.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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I've got the answer to my first question, but the other two are not discussed in this thread.
Could you please explain why Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba should be different entities (red god, God)?
I liked the idea of the link between Valtiel and Xuchilbara/Xuchilpaba for the rebirth reason; now I must think that James and Ernest simply try to use the power of God (Xuchilpaba) and not the one of Red God (Xuchilbara), which hasn't got anything to do with reincarnation, since Valtiel/Metatron only has?

Also, about the Incubus, I did a search yesterday and that took me two damned hours to get nothing; too many threads!
I understand the fact that God looks like Dahlia wants him to look - Incubus - I just don't get why that should also be the yellow god. Is this because the yellow god is the one worshipped by Dahlia?
If so, in SH3 Claudia creates God, which is also the yellow god because she like Dahlia worshipped Lobsel Vith, and God/Lobsel looks like Heather because that's the image Claudia has of Lobsel?
In SH4 we see the Holy Mother/God in the resemblance of The Room?

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>Could you please explain why Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba should be different entities
well for starters they're spelled differently. if we assume it was a mistake, then that means we also must assume anything else in the series could potentially be a mistake. in that case, everything in the series is no longer credible because everything could be wrong.

secondly: it was originally my belief that the "text about syncretic religions," when referring to the fact that no religions remain the same, was alluding not only to a religion's belief-system, but also the names of its god and gods. however, we know for a fact that the natives believed in an entity called xuchilbara (the red god), and we know that there was an entity called xuchilpaba. we also know that the order gave names to the entities they did not already know the names of, courtesy of the book of lost memory, because the names had been lost. it's unlikely, then, that they would change the name of one deity twice when they already knew the name of it.

xuchilpaba --> xuchilbara --> valtiel

it doesn't add up when you already have the name the natives used.

my comment on xuchilbara being an "offspring" of xuchilpaba is derived from two factors: their name and their appearance. both begin w/ the same prefix, xuchil, and both are depicted in painting 4.creation as females w/ reddish-blond hair in a red dress. the other girl, lobsel vith, the yellow god, is depicted differently. god could easily have been depicted in a white dress if there wasn't a significance to their attire, but the fact the two look alike seems too much to be a coincidence--especially given the realism of the paintings and the clandestine context w/in each of them.

so then: xuchilpaba is god, the sun god that the natives worshiped, the main deity of the order. xuchilbara is the red god. lobsel vith is the yellow god. valtiel is, to me, still a parallel to metatron/samael, as this thread is primarily about.

>I just don't get why that should also be the yellow god.
it's not the yellow god.

these are two different statements. read them carefully.

1. lobsel vith looks like incubus.
2. incubus is not lobsel vith.

god is going to look like whatever its conjurer desires, whatever they worship. according to my belief, dahlia worships not only god (xuchilpaba) but also lobsel vith, according to how the order is segmented. thus the image she idolizes in her secret altar beneath the green lion antique shop is that of lobsel vith (incubus). therefore when god is born, it is going to look like lobsel vith even though it's actually god (because god is going to look like whatever its conjurer worships).

claudia, on the other hand, does not worship lobsel vith; she simply worships alessa as god. so, when claudia births god, it is going to look like alessa even though it's actually god.

(note. i'm paralleling sentences for added emphasis, not to be condescending or rude.)

that should cover most of it.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Thank you.

So we can work the Lobsel one out with a couple of sillogisms:

Lobsel Vith is Dahlia's worshipped god (set of the Holy Woman) → Dahlia's worshipped god looks like Incubus (Altar image) → Lobsel Vith looks like Incubus

God looks like the conjurer's worshipped god → Dahlia's worshipped god is Lobsel Vith → God looks like Lobsel Vith → God looks like Incubus (evidence of the ending of SH1)



> claudia, on the other hand, does not worship lobsel vith

Claudia also belongs to the same sect; is it stated somewhere that she doesn't worship Lobsel Vith, but just "Alessa"?


Anyway, talkin about rebirth. The words on Xuchilpaba being related to rebirth in SH2 imply that God itself is somehow concerned with rebirth? And not only Valtiel, which we know being surely related to the theme (reviving Alessa in SH3 and so on).

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