News on SH2

[JKristine35]

I don't feel like posting all of Gans' and Jodelle's quotes again, so I'll point you to page 4 of the 'Ending Too Ambiguous?' thread.

[Phantom Allure]

Said line was spoken when the flashback was showing Cristabella persuading a bewildered Dahlia that the girl needs "purifying". So, it's quite obvious looking at that "@_@" face that Alessa was still pretty clueless at that point.

I think Ramirez is talking more "She was so angry, she'd lash out at people who were only curious" and "her hate began to change the world" sort of lines.

Nothing happened to the nurse at that moment. If anything, she only got trapped in the Otherworld after Alessa made that pact.

But, as I stated on a nother thread, that is a moot point. The director has stated that she is the dark side of the soul, and what the creator says is inarguable fact.

*edited after reading transcript links*
Actually, it was JODELLE who said that Dark Alessa was "sort of" the bad side of Alessa. Gans provided the ambiguous cop-out answer about Asiatic yin-yang pseudo-philosophy of there being two sides to every person, and so on and so forth.

[JKristine35]

No, they are not 'ambiguous', you just want them to be because they don't say what you want. Gans directly states that he hired Jodelle to play different versions of one character and that Alessa is living in three bodies: one adult and two children. There's nothing ambiguous or hard to understand about that. I also love how you say Jodelle only ever said Dark Alessa is 'sort of' the bad side of Alessa and completely ignore that she never once mentions an outside entity and only says 'sort of' in one quote.

[AuraTwilight]

Nothing happened to the nurse at that moment. If anything, she only got trapped in the Otherworld after Alessa made that pact.

Because psychic trauma has never been inflicted before in the Silent Hill series, no sir-ree-bob.

[KiramidHead]

They could have inserted a line in the flashback about Alessa already having powers, for those of us who hadn't played the game yet when we saw it.

[JKristine35]

I think Gans assumed people would get it when it specifically stated that Alessa was responsible for hurting the nurse and wilting the flowers and the evil little girl specifically states "I'm the dark part of Alessa".

[KiramidHead]

But given that Avary was responsible for the dialogue, the whole devil thing could be his fault.

[JKristine35]

Yeah, the idea I get is that Avery thought he could get away with just having her say 'I'm the dark part of Alessa', and wouldn't need to worry about further expanding on it. Thank God Avery didn't write the storyline

[KiramidHead]

Yeah, he only got hired because of his writing credit on Pulp Fiction, which I think required about as much work as Frank Miller's directing credit on Sin City (i.e., none).

[Phantom Allure]

No, they are not 'ambiguous', you just want them to be because they don't say what you want. Gans directly states that he hired Jodelle to play different versions of one character and that Alessa is living in three bodies: one adult and two children. There's nothing ambiguous or hard to understand about that. I also love how you say Jodelle only ever said Dark Alessa is 'sort of' the bad side of Alessa and completely ignore that she never once mentions an outside entity and only says 'sort of' in one quote.

Pot to kettle: "You're black. just admit it."

I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Jodelle is barely into her teenaged years so yes, she completely grasps complex ideological concepts such as trinitarian animism. So yeah, she didn't even need Gans' initial simplification that she'd be playing "the devil" on their first meeting. Not that I was ever dumb enough to accept at face value that he meant it literally.

And that the fact where the Dark One refers to Sharon as "hers" (Alessa's) and not as "ours" and constantly referring to Alessa in the third person is just one of the Dark One's verbal conversation quirks. ALESSA, SHE IS WE.

I think Gans assumed people would get it when it specifically stated that Alessa was responsible for hurting the nurse and wilting the flowers and the evil little girl specifically states "I'm the dark part of Alessa".

Nobody argued that Alessa hurt the nurse on purpose. The only bone of contention here is that I am pointing out she was only able to do so afterwards. As in, when she finally had powers. Geez.

And about the roses thing, there was no indication how much time Alessa spent in that room. It would have been more conclusive if the roses were shown to wilt with amazing rapidity, but it could also be just as convincingly indicative that nobody visited her to give her fresh flowers (not even her mother, given the delicate state she was in). Plus, having plenty of experience myself at arranging roses, I do know for certain that roses could wilt in the space of a few hours if A) the cut stem ends have been exposed to air too long and air bubbles in the capillaries prevented water intake and B) If they are placed in a drafty spot, whether cold or warm.

Because psychic trauma has never been inflicted before in the Silent Hill series, no sir-ree-bob.

Um, yeah. She was really devastated by the weight of Alessa's Psychic Trauma Attack Glare of Death that she walked out of the room as fast as she could. Total numbing damage on the spot.

You know guys, there's no need to be openly hostile with your replies here. I'm only defending as best I could why I believed the Dark One was an external entity.

[AuraTwilight]

I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Jodelle is barely into her teenaged years so yes, she completely grasps complex ideological concepts such as trinitarian animism. So yeah, she didn't even need Gans' initial simplification that she'd be playing "the devil" on their first meeting. Not that I was ever dumb enough to accept at face value that he meant it literally.

I'm getting pretty annoyed by the argument that Jodelle doesn't know what she's talking about simply because she's not an adult. If she didn't understand "trinitarian animism" (which I'm unsure if it's even the proper term), she wouldn't be suggesting it, and if she's suggesting it to be in agreement with Gans, then we didn't really go anywhere because GANS still said so, and he's pretty much the Word of God for the movie.

And that the fact where the Dark One refers to Sharon as "hers" (Alessa's) and not as "ours" and constantly referring to Alessa in the third person is just one of the Dark One's verbal conversation quirks. ALESSA, SHE IS WE.

Yea, so...? The shoulder devil has no inherent claims or ownership over the shoulder angel.

Nobody argued that Alessa hurt the nurse on purpose. The only bone of contention here is that I am pointing out she was only able to do so afterwards. As in, when she finally had powers. Geez.

Her striking out at the nurse sure seemed to have intent, to me. Yea, she might not of been thinking "If I wish hard enough, that bitch'll burn", but she was probably thinking "Stop looking at me...fucking hate her so much! Hate everything" and it hurt the nurse. (Also Alessa always had powers)

And about the roses thing, there was no indication how much time Alessa spent in that room. It would have been more conclusive if the roses were shown to wilt with amazing rapidity, but it could also be just as convincingly indicative that nobody visited her to give her fresh flowers (not even her mother, given the delicate state she was in). Plus, having plenty of experience myself at arranging roses, I do know for certain that roses could wilt in the space of a few hours if A) the cut stem ends have been exposed to air too long and air bubbles in the capillaries prevented water intake and B) If they are placed in a drafty spot, whether cold or warm.

It just seems pretty suggestive to me that they specifically cut to the wilted flowers when Dark Alessa says, "Her hate began to change the world."

Whether Dark Alessa is a separate entity or not, Alessa was already effecting reality with her emotions. Let's just accept that and put the point to rest.

Um, yeah. She was really devastated by the weight of Alessa's Psychic Trauma Attack Glare of Death that she walked out of the room as fast as she could. Total numbing damage on the spot.

Pretty consistent with how Lisa was effected in the games.

You know guys, there's no need to be openly hostile with your replies here. I'm only defending as best I could why I believed the Dark One was an external entity.

I don't sense any hostility going on; though even if that were so, I wouldn't take the lecture from you very seriously, considering how hostile you've been in other threads.

[JKristine35]

Pot to kettle: "You're black. just admit it."

You are one of only two people who can't seem to grasp the simple concept of what Gans is saying in his quotes. It is really not that difficult to understand the quotes. He is outright stating that Alessa lives in three bodies and that the only way to understand the film is to understand that god and the devil live within each person and Alessa is now living in multiple bodies. It's ridiculous to claim that I'm on the same level as you, as I can read and comprehend simple quotes, thank you.

I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Jodelle is barely into her teenaged years so yes, she completely grasps complex ideological concepts such as trinitarian animism. So yeah, she didn't even need Gans' initial simplification that she'd be playing "the devil" on their first meeting. Not that I was ever dumb enough to accept at face value that he meant it literally.

You do realize there's a difference between what you tell someone in a memo and what you explain to them once they take the role? If she was so young that she couldn't comprehend what she was being told, don't you think she would still be saying 'She's the devil' in her interviews? Are you seriously claiming that you, the viewer, know more about her character than she does because of her age?

And that the fact where the Dark One refers to Sharon as "hers" (Alessa's) and not as "ours" and constantly referring to Alessa in the third person is just one of the Dark One's verbal conversation quirks. ALESSA, SHE IS WE.

I've explained that already. It would be too confusing to have her constantly referring to herself as Alessa, when they are clearly split into two bodies (three, if you add Sharon). And that still does not make what the actress and director have stated wrong.

Nobody argued that Alessa hurt the nurse on purpose. The only bone of contention here is that I am pointing out she was only able to do so afterwards. As in, when she finally had powers. Geez.

And you're still ignoring the dialogue. The character spells it out in the simplest of ways: "She even hurt someone who was only curious!" She doesn't say: "She even hurt someone who was only curious later on" or "She planned on hurting someone who was only curious", she makes it quite clear that Alessa hurt her right then , not later. So unless you can somehow successfully argue that that particular part of the movie was actually happening in reverse , what you're saying makes no sense and contradicts the dialogue.

And about the roses thing, there was no indication how much time Alessa spent in that room. It would have been more conclusive if the roses were shown to wilt with amazing rapidity, but it could also be just as convincingly indicative that nobody visited her to give her fresh flowers (not even her mother, given the delicate state she was in).

Officer Gucci: "I heard she died that night." Plus all of the news articles Chris reads and the Brahams Herald (the promotional newspaper released with the movie) state that the fire moved quickly through the town in a matter of hours, killing many people in their sleep. In other words, it is not possible that Alessa was in the hospital for more than a few hours.

Plus, having plenty of experience myself at arranging roses, I do know for certain that roses could wilt in the space of a few hours if A) the cut stem ends have been exposed to air too long and air bubbles in the capillaries prevented water intake and B) If they are placed in a drafty spot, whether cold or warm.

So, you're saying they wasted screentime to emphasize... that the roses were incorrectly cut?

Um, yeah. She was really devastated by the weight of Alessa's Psychic Trauma Attack Glare of Death that she walked out of the room as fast as she could. Total numbing damage on the spot.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that Dark Alessa directly states that Alessa harmed the red nurse. Just because it took more than 5 seconds for her eyes to start bleeding really doesn't mean jack. Especially when they clearly wanted to make her condition mysterious when Rose sees her.

You know guys, there's no need to be openly hostile with your replies here. I'm only defending as best I could why I believed the Dark One was an external entity.

You're ignoring direct quotes from the director and the actress to make a case that is based entirely on speculation and is, in fact, wrong. I think you're mistaking peoples' irritation over the fact that you're being willfully ignorant for hostility.

[Phantom Allure]

Pot to kettle: "You're black. just admit it."

You are one of only two people who can't seem to grasp the simple concept of what Gans is saying in his quotes. It is really not that difficult to understand the quotes. He is outright stating that Alessa lives in three bodies and that the only way to understand the film is to understand that god and the devil live within each person and Alessa is now living in multiple bodies. It's ridiculous to claim that I'm on the same level as you, as I can read and comprehend simple quotes, thank you.

I read through your quoted "uncontestable" link that Gans stated SPECIFICALLY that he "outright stated that [movie]Alessa lives on as three persons." Because if you are referring to this line:

The first game tells the amazing story of an adult woman who also exists as two little girls, good and bad doubles representing who she was when she was hurt.

He was talking about THE GAME. Not his version for the screen.

You're right, we're not on the same level of comprehension. I have a tendency to scrutinize with a microscope to avoid committing faux pas as much as possible.

I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Jodelle is barely into her teenaged years so yes, she completely grasps complex ideological concepts such as trinitarian animism. So yeah, she didn't even need Gans' initial simplification that she'd be playing "the devil" on their first meeting. Not that I was ever dumb enough to accept at face value that he meant it literally.

You do realize there's a difference between what you tell someone in a memo and what you explain to them once they take the role? If she was so young that she couldn't comprehend what she was being told, don't you think she would still be saying 'She's the devil' in her interviews? Are you seriously claiming that you, the viewer, know more about her character than she does because of her age?

Maybe, especially if her innocence is glaringly obvious in the transcript of her interview responses, for instance:

"So, Dark Alessa is the scary one, the white makeup, and um and the black stringy hair. And then I play Sharon, who is the adopted daughter of a?f Rose, and she, she keeps talking about this place called Silent Hill and but she is sort of sleepwalking when she does it. So, when she wakes up she doesn? remember that she? been doing that. And then there? Alessa, who is the daughter of Dahlia?nd she?veryone really thinks she? a bad person, and they call her a witch. But?eah, so no one likes her, they?e really mean to her. And Dark Alessa is sort of the bad of Alessa and that? why she? all scary and strange. But?o, those are the three characters I play"

I don't even think she knows the significance of her being in that scene in the bathroom cubicle with the janitor, but... whatever.

And that the fact where the Dark One refers to Sharon as "hers" (Alessa's) and not as "ours" and constantly referring to Alessa in the third person is just one of the Dark One's verbal conversation quirks. ALESSA, SHE IS WE.

I've explained that already. It would be too confusing to have her constantly referring to herself as Alessa, when they are clearly split into two bodies (three, if you add Sharon). And that still does not make what the actress and director have stated wrong.

By your reasoning, that doesn't make me wrong, either.

Nobody argued that Alessa hurt the nurse on purpose. The only bone of contention here is that I am pointing out she was only able to do so afterwards. As in, when she finally had powers. Geez.

And you're still ignoring the dialogue. The character spells it out in the simplest of ways: "She even hurt someone who was only curious!" She doesn't say: "She even hurt someone who was only curious later on" or "She planned on hurting someone who was only curious", she makes it quite clear that Alessa hurt her right then , not later. So unless you can somehow successfully argue that that particular part of the movie was actually happening in reverse , what you're saying makes no sense and contradicts the dialogue.

She still hurt the nurse regardless of whether she did it later. She made the pact with the Dark One just after the nurse left didn't she?

If we're now taking up plot theory validity on the basis of dialogue, you're conveniently ignoring once more what you just quoted above. i.e., the Third-Person thingamajig. Make up your mind.

And about the roses thing, there was no indication how much time Alessa spent in that room. It would have been more conclusive if the roses were shown to wilt with amazing rapidity, but it could also be just as convincingly indicative that nobody visited her to give her fresh flowers (not even her mother, given the delicate state she was in).

Officer Gucci: "I heard she died that night." Plus all of the news articles Chris reads and the Brahams Herald (the promotional newspaper released with the movie) state that the fire moved quickly through the town in a matter of hours, killing many people in their sleep. In other words, it is not possible that Alessa was in the hospital for more than a few hours.

Isn't it already established that the fire that consumed the town and the one that broke out in the Hotel isn't the same, given that:
1) Gucci wouldn't have been able to get Alessa's burned (but very much alive) body unless the fire in the Hotel attic was put under control first
2) Alessa wouldn't be getting roses in the first place because, I don't know, the flower shop was closed ON ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING A HUGE-ASS FIRE IN TOWN?

Plus, having plenty of experience myself at arranging roses, I do know for certain that roses could wilt in the space of a few hours if A) the cut stem ends have been exposed to air too long and air bubbles in the capillaries prevented water intake and B) If they are placed in a drafty spot, whether cold or warm.

So, you're saying they wasted screentime to emphasize... that the roses were incorrectly cut?

They used up screentime to emphasize she had dead roses on her bed stand. Refusing to believe that there's nothing so much more oh-so-dramatically symbolic than that? Try this: they were dead because the Dark One is near. Still works for me.

Um, yeah. She was really devastated by the weight of Alessa's Psychic Trauma Attack Glare of Death that she walked out of the room as fast as she could. Total numbing damage on the spot.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that Dark Alessa directly states that Alessa harmed the red nurse. Just because it took more than 5 seconds for her eyes to start bleeding really doesn't mean jack. Especially when they clearly wanted to make her condition mysterious when Rose sees her.

When the heck did I EVER deny Alessa DID hurt the nurse? All I ever said was her act of cruelty was DELAYED. DELAYED, PEOPLE. DELAYED. It's spelled differently from "CANCELLED."

You know guys, there's no need to be openly hostile with your replies here. I'm only defending as best I could why I believed the Dark One was an external entity.

You're ignoring direct quotes from the director and the actress to make a case that is based entirely on speculation and is, in fact, wrong. I think you're mistaking peoples' irritation over the fact that you're being willfully ignorant for hostility.

See responses above. Irritation works both ways.

[AuraTwilight]

He was talking about THE GAME. Not his version for the screen.

You're right, we're not on the same level of comprehension. I have a tendency to scrutinize with a microscope to avoid committing faux pas as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure Ramirez is talking about another line, but: Why would Gans reference the game if he wasn't making a comparison, it's not like he's saying, "In the game, Alessa split herself into her good and bad parts, unlike my movie where she casts off her innocence by making a pack with the Devil."

I don't even think she knows the significance of her being in that scene in the bathroom cubicle with the janitor, but... whatever.

She never mentions anything about the Janitor either way. Stop assuming things about what she does and doesn't know.

She still hurt the nurse regardless of whether she did it later. She made the pact with the Dark One just after the nurse left didn't she?

If we're now taking up plot theory validity on the basis of dialogue, you're conveniently ignoring once more what you just quoted above. i.e., the Third-Person thingamajig. Make up your mind.

Dark Alessa wouldn't be the first Silent Hill character to talk about herself in third person.

Isn't it already established that the fire that consumed the town and the one that broke out in the Hotel isn't the same, given that:
1) Gucci wouldn't have been able to get Alessa's burned (but very much alive) body unless the fire in the Hotel attic was put under control first
2) Alessa wouldn't be getting roses in the first place because, I don't know, the flower shop was closed ON ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING A HUGE-ASS FIRE IN TOWN?

It was apparently the same fire. Plothole? Maybe, but there doesn't seem to have been two fires. Maybe there was the first fire, did some damage, was quelled, then everyone vanished and the police thought "lol fire?"

They used up screentime to emphasize she had dead roses on her bed stand. Refusing to believe that there's nothing so much more oh-so-dramatically symbolic than that? Try this: they were dead because the Dark One is near. Still works for me.

The Dark One doesn't even show up for another scene or two. Also "her hate began to change the world." You still haven't addressed that line at all.

When the heck did I EVER deny Alessa DID hurt the nurse? All I ever said was her act of cruelty was DELAYED. DELAYED, PEOPLE. DELAYED. It's spelled differently from "CANCELLED."

WAS it delayed? Or did it merely take a while to get as bad as the modern incarnation we see?

[Phantom Allure]

He was talking about THE GAME. Not his version for the screen.

You're right, we're not on the same level of comprehension. I have a tendency to scrutinize with a microscope to avoid committing faux pas as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure Ramirez is talking about another line, but: Why would Gans reference the game if he wasn't making a comparison, it's not like he's saying, "In the game, Alessa split herself into her good and bad parts, unlike my movie where she casts off her innocence by making a pack with the Devil."

Combed through the entirety of the Gans interview she posted as her source. That's as closest as it comes to what she kept saying. I even used a ruler on the monitor to make sure I didn't skip a line.
And not as if Gans didn't contemplate deviating from the game. Oh noes, witch hunts notwithstanding.

I don't even think she knows the significance of her being in that scene in the bathroom cubicle with the janitor, but... whatever.

She never mentions anything about the Janitor either way. Stop assuming things about what she does and doesn't know.

Now, now... I'd think I could be forgiven if I assume a girl her age would be naïve on the subject of molestation...

She still hurt the nurse regardless of whether she did it later. She made the pact with the Dark One just after the nurse left didn't she?

If we're now taking up plot theory validity on the basis of dialogue, you're conveniently ignoring once more what you just quoted above. i.e., the Third-Person thingamajig. Make up your mind.

Dark Alessa wouldn't be the first Silent Hill character to talk about herself in third person.

In film? Yes she is.

Isn't it already established that the fire that consumed the town and the one that broke out in the Hotel isn't the same, given that:
1) Gucci wouldn't have been able to get Alessa's burned (but very much alive) body unless the fire in the Hotel attic was put under control first
2) Alessa wouldn't be getting roses in the first place because, I don't know, the flower shop was closed ON ACCOUNT OF THERE BEING A HUGE-ASS FIRE IN TOWN?

It was apparently the same fire. Plothole? Maybe, but there doesn't seem to have been two fires. Maybe there was the first fire, did some damage, was quelled, then everyone vanished and the police thought "lol fire?"

"Apparently"? I'd think the police would have brought Alessa to a hospital that isn't the middle of a blazing town.

They used up screentime to emphasize she had dead roses on her bed stand. Refusing to believe that there's nothing so much more oh-so-dramatically symbolic than that? Try this: they were dead because the Dark One is near. Still works for me.

The Dark One doesn't even show up for another scene or two. Also "her hate began to change the world." You still haven't addressed that line at all.

The Dark One's scene came immediately after the scene with the nurse in red. And that line with the world changing? Isn't that already at the point when the medical canopy was doing that Hoover Vacuum thing after she gives the Dark One a high five and a "SUP?"

[JKristine35]

Could you please tell me what game has Alessa living as an adult and two children? Is this a game that only you happened to buy, and which was never made available to anyone else? Or isn't is obvious that he meant the movie? And even if he did, for whatever reason, believe Alessa was split into three, that still explains the three characters in the movie. And if the fires are two different ones, then why do the newspapers put the date at Nov. 1,1974 and Alessa's police report is dated the same day?

[Phantom Allure]

Could you please tell me what game has Alessa living as an adult and two children? Is this a game that only you happened to buy, and which was never made available to anyone else? Or isn't is obvious that he meant the movie? And even if he did, for whatever reason, believe Alessa was split into three, that still explains the three characters in the movie. And if the fires are two different ones, then why do the newspapers put the date at Nov. 1,1974 and Alessa's police report is dated the same day?

Ask Gans. I only quoted him directly. From your source.

I'll get back to you on the dates to see if it did have that disparity from the in-movie details.

[JKristine35]

It's obvious. And, no matter how you cut it, whether you claim it's his interpretation of the game or he meant the movie, it still proves she's not the devil. Unless, of course, you want to deny that he stated that that aspect of the game was put into the movie in just the sentence before. And you still haven't replied to Gans' quote saying that he hired Jodelle to play 'multiple incarnations of a same character', nor have you explained how Alessa could be living in 'many bodies', as Gans has stated

[Phantom Allure]

It's obvious. And, no matter how you cut it, whether you claim it's his interpretation of the game or he meant the movie, it still proves she's not the devil. Unless, of course, you want to deny that he stated that that aspect of the game was put into the movie in just the sentence before. And you still haven't replied to Gans' quote saying that he hired Jodelle to play 'multiple incarnations of a same character', nor have you explained how Alessa could be living in 'many bodies', as Gans has stated

What, you're getting annoyed at me all this time because you think I'm saying she's literally the devil?
If so, let me clarify that I believe Dark Alessa is merely an external entity. If you're still annoyed at me, we're just gonna have to deal with being the proverbial oil and water on the subject.

Now as for your other questions, you probably wouldn't find this easy to swallow but what it really comes down to is that personally, I think Gans is getting mixed up trying to elaborate what he really meant to say at that interview and you're swallowing up his mixed lines as gospel. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with believing what a guy explains about his handiwork, but with the exception of a select few extremely articulate people, ad lib responses to interviews will almost always contain slight errors due to poor choice of words. Gans mixing up the plot of the game with the concept behind his movie (or, also possibly, forgetting the plot of the first game, PERIOD) is proof enough of that. And you could hardly credit Jodelle to not flub her lines as well.

You might say I'm being incredibly arrogant for sneering at the words of the Director himself, but I rather prefer to take his live interviews with a grain of salt. Unless he writes a book on it that's been editted and proofread before publication.

And Jodelle DID play multiples of Alessa. It's just I prefer to call them multiple versions, which, when you think about it, is also applicable to incarnation (as in, Jesus is God's incarnate in flesh). Alessa also lived in multiple bodies, I don't deny that, but I only believe she lived as the Bedridden Body and the Sharon Body.

[JKristine35]

So, you're basically saying that you know more than the actress who plays the character because she's too young to possibly understand what she's talking about and you know more than the man who both directed the movie and created the movie's version of the characters because he's too dumb to know what he's talking about? You're ridiculous. There is no fool-proof evidence that Dark Alessa is not Alessa's dark side and more than a little that she is.