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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
Notes left: 515
Last seen at: Phoenix
JKristine35 wrote:
The overriding theme / moral of the story in SH1 was a parent who would do anything for their child, which is the exact same overriding theme / moral of the story in the film. Both games and films feature an alternate reality that metaphorically represents purgatory / hell, both speak of the dangers of religious fanaticism, and both carry Christian symbolism. In both films and games, the world that most of the story takes place in is a manifestation of a particular person's emotions (Alessa, Heather), and so decides almost everything seen by the protagonist.

I spoke to my sister, who is a third year law student, about your claim that a copyright lawsuit would fail if the films changed the names of the characters. She says you have no idea what you're talking about, and that a copyright lawsuit on either film absolutely would be won. She even quoted the law in question, which boils down to whether a person of reasonable mind would be able to see a marked resemblance.


How on earth the first film would not qualify as a transformative work? The hero was replaced by the mother. Cybil becomes a martyr. The witch Dahlia is split into i. the Cassandra, ii, the Religious Fanatic. Magic --> Power of Devil Alessa. Pagan cult replaced by generic Christian sect, with physical symbol changed etc. Not that any of those things are covered by copyright in the first place.

If your sister remains in good humor ask her to clarify if the reasonable person's viewpoint is a hurdle or the finish line? Let's assume that an RP is capable of seeing that the The Davinci Code obviously took the idea of Holy Grail = Mary Magdalene from some other books. That doesn't mean Brown infringed, he made a new piece of art from the existing art. The court would want to see that the movie copied parts of the game, not the idea of the story.
The plaintiff has to show an RP would see that copying before anyone examines whether or not the film was a transforative work [it is].


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
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There is no way in hell either SH movie would fall into the category of a "transformative work" - that's utterly ridiculous. They're derivative works, which are defined as "A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work". What's the main factor in deciding whether a new work is "derivative" or "transformative"? How the work is used. The films are made for profit, which already puts them heavily into the "derivative" category, before even adding the similar everything else they sport. Their storylines, aesthetics and even much of their meaning are extremely and blatantly similar, to the point that no one could possibly play the games and then watch the movies and not recognize them as being the same. This is not a case where some little bit of the story or aesthetics are copied here or there - the influence is everywhere, and just changing a character's gender and swapping one female character for another is not going to change that. You seem to be going out of your way to ignore all the very obvious similarities, including scenes that are copied shot for shot and monsters and locations ripped directly from the games.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
Notes left: 515
Last seen at: Phoenix
JKristine35 wrote:
There is no way in hell either SH movie would fall into the category of a "transformative work" - that's utterly ridiculous. They're derivative works, which are defined as "A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work".


If we're going to do a legal analysis:

The law is that ideas are not copyrightable, but the expressions of them are. The tropes that we bring up are never owned by the author in the first place, only his method of arranging them into a story. I argue that the ideas of Team Silent vs Avary/Gans are so different in the first place that the expression analysis isn't necessary.

Even if it was I doubt that Team Silent could prevail in our hypothetical film, where Avary/Gans made the same movie but changed all the names. Could Konami sue them for violating Team Silent's intellectual property rights?

The fans here are the target audience, and the fact that 'we' spent so many posts discussing how much was changed from the video game tells me that they wrote a new story to express some general ideas about fighting evil to save the innocent.

Quote:
What's the main factor in deciding whether a new work is "derivative" or "transformative"? How the work is used. The films are made for profit, which already puts them heavily into the "derivative" category, before even adding the similar everything else they sport.


I read that the main factor is whether the 2nd author "supercedes" the purpose or creates a new purpose. The film Silent Hill had a completely different purpose, such as how Middle American religion was the enemy of motherhood.

Quote:
Their storylines, aesthetics and even much of their meaning are extremely and blatantly similar, to the point that no one could possibly play the games and then watch the movies and not recognize them as being the same.


This is not a case where some little bit of the story or aesthetics are copied here or there - the influence is everywhere, and just changing a character's gender and swapping one female character for another is not going to change that. You seem to be going out of your way to ignore all the very obvious similarities, including scenes that are copied shot for shot and monsters and locations ripped directly from the games.


No I didn't ignore them even though I tried to avoid writing a treatise on American IP law itt. (Congratulate your Sister on getting me to dig my IP book out of the archive). The shots that are presumably grafted from the game can be justified by the Fair Use defense. It's tedious and very subjective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

If as descirbed about, the new authors have a new purpose, then they would be allowed fair use of someone else's imagery.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
Notes left: 1684
Last seen at: Houston, Tx.
All you're doing is spouting a bunch of nonsense in an effort to hide that you are blatantly wrong. It's absurd that you seem to actually believe that two stories that are very close to identical will not result in a winning lawsuit. By the "logic" you're using, there's no reason to copyright anything, because anyone who blatantly copies your story can get away with it by changing little things here and there. Sorry, but that is not how the law works, and if you think it does, then you are in for a major surprise if you ever try to argue a lawsuit in court. No court is going to look at a movie containing the same base storyline, same locations, same monsters, same lead character and several other characters who are very obviously ripped straight from the game, same staples as which the series is known, several identical scenes, and actually call it a transformative work. You're simply delusional if you honestly believe that. The overwhelming substantial similarity and the use of both films for profit will win in a court of law, no questions asked. Nitpicking details and crying because the overall meaning was changed from "Fatherhood versus fanatical cult" to "Motherhood versus fanatical cult" won't change that it blatantly copied from a copyrighted source.

The complaining of fans of the games really doesn't prove anything, other than that certain game fans don't like the movies. Someone looking at the two works from a non-biased viewpoint can easily see the very clear and obvious similarity.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Mar 2008
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Last seen at: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
You know what... Maybe they should just make an adaption of Homecoming and call it "Silent Hill SAW".

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
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I'm going to leave it there because JKR's gotten angry again. But I invite the curious to compare the films of Enter the Dragon and Mortal Kombat and ask yourself that is the sort of thing over which authors can sue each other.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
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Last seen at: Houston, Tx.
Edit: Nevermind, no use responding to flamebaiting.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Aug 2004
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Last seen at: Overlook Hotel
please no more films

if they can't bother to make a decent film then don't bother at all

the last one made me wanna vomit


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?

Missing since: 13 Aug 2006
Notes left: 588
Last seen at: I can't remember.
silenthell88 wrote:
please no more films

if they can't bother to make a decent film then don't bother at all

the last one made me wanna vomit


But that's the thing. They've shown that they could very well potentially do a decent film. SH1 wasn't a masterpiece but it at least "felt" like a SH game turned movie. They just had to muck it up by trying to make an already convoluted and confusing story even more complicated. It still had great set pieces and effects, but it lacked the disturbing and creepyness of the game on which it was based. SH3 was similar to the first, yet its desire to appeal to the masses ultimately got in the way of appealing to anyone. The story had many inconsistencies and plotholes with some weak writing, but it was more macabre and gruesome like the game. Again, though, it lacked scares and a well-presented storyline. Some of the characters and their fates were completely unlike their game counterparts and some were sorely under-represented.

It brings the main topic into question. Elaborating even further on the plots of the first two movies would most likely not turn out well. I guess third time coudl be a charm, but it's doubtful.Therefore,if a third movie were to be made it would make more sense to start from scratch (reboot maybe?) or tell a story that is completely unrelated to the first movies. I already suggested SH:TR as it already has a strong premise for a horror film.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
I'm surprised so many people say that one of the few good/ decent things about the film was it's sets. To me, they were very dull and unimaginative, especially compared to the 1st movie's sets and atmosphere within the sets.
I enjoy the movie on a more mindless note, but I wouldn't praise the set pieces.
I would hope that they could do a lot better with that (and many other things) in another movie, but I do not see a sequel being made. If one is made, I kind of feel that it would be worse than Revelations.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?

Missing since: 13 Aug 2006
Notes left: 588
Last seen at: I can't remember.
Yeah well some people are eternal pessimists.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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In this case, the pessimism is understandable. It's not as if many on here are losing hope for good things for the series, or the movies at least, for no reason. Feeling another movie would be bad or that this movie was bad has good reasons behind it, while feeling another movie would be good (taking into account how the film industry is and how the franchise is being treated already) has no real basis besides just hoping.
Which as a huge fan, I understand and still always hope for the best. Realistically, though, I don't feel It will get any better.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
Notes left: 515
Last seen at: Phoenix
There's no sense being pessimistic, it wouldn't work anyway.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
I'm not sure how having thoughts and general feelings on something makes anything work.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?

Missing since: 18 Sep 2010
Notes left: 50
i would really like to see either a movie of "SH the room" or "Downpour"..both could be really good movies and the potential is there. please do not continue on with the story they have going now with chris..(my god nobody fing cares)...those 2 movies were destoyed beyond recognition..But when does hollywood ever make a "good" movie anymore? so if they do end up doing a 3rd film it will ulitmatly fail like the first 2 movies because they will find a way to F*** it up like they do to all video game adaptations..and please dont do a SH2 game based movie, the ending to that game has been done a hundred times already in other movies..although seeing a real life eddie dombroski would be awesome but im sure they would pick an actor that wouldnt even come close to what he delivers in the game..


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2011
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I would enjoy a Game of Thrones & Silent Hill lovechild, with themes stemming from Past Life. Maybe Vincent can return to Silent Hill to find Chris, but slowly come to the realization that he was once, in a past life, Jon Snow, and desires vengeance for Ned Stark's death?

~

Seriously though, a brand new story is the way to go.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
Notes left: 515
Last seen at: Phoenix
teosoleil wrote:
I would enjoy a Game of Thrones & Silent Hill lovechild, with themes stemming from Past Life. Maybe Vincent can return to Silent Hill to find Chris, but slowly come to the realization that he was once, in a past life, Jon Snow, and desires vengeance for Ned Stark's death?

~

Seriously though, a brand new story is the way to go.


I'd merge SH with High Noon. New Sheriff Harry Mason tries to rally the cultists knowing Red Pyramid has been released from the insane asylum is coming on the midnight train. Heather pleads with Vincent to open the closet door and go help @ the town square.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Oct 2012
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Last seen at: Portland
teosoleil wrote:
I would enjoy a Game of Thrones & Silent Hill lovechild, with themes stemming from Past Life. Maybe Vincent can return to Silent Hill to find Chris, but slowly come to the realization that he was once, in a past life, Jon Snow, and desires vengeance for Ned Stark's death?

I'd watch that.

But yeah, I agree that I would like a new story (I actually think the two movies would have been better if they didn't tie into SH1/SH3 at all, and instead were just independent yarns that just took place in Silent Hill. Since at the end of the day, the town itself is what the series is really focused on).


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 04 May 2013
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I think if we don't want more incoherence we need to start a new story. There is some incoherences in Revelation and I think that start a new story could help to not make incoherences again. They need to make movie longer than 1 hour too, as it has been said earlier in the topic. If they continue the story with Harry/Christopher searching Rose, it would be worse than Revelation I think.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Third movie, new story?
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Oct 2012
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Yeah, honestly I couldn't care less whether Harry/Christopher finds Rose or not. She was a terribly written character, anyway.


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