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 Post subject: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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I don't read comics. I know that Waltz is a great writer so I hope he doesn't take it personally (:P), but I've never been much of a fan of graphic novels. Therefore, there are many aspects of this game that are chiefly meaningless to me.

So: could someone please give an overview of the Past Life/Downpour overlaps for those of us not versed in the former? What have we missed, and how essential do you think this knowledge is?

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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Well, Past Life gives an origin story for Howard, but it isn't fully explained by any means. We still don't know how he could live for as long as he did or what his true role is.

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We don't get an origin story for Howard so much as a cameo. He BARELY appears in it. It's an alright independent story, but I think it's importance to the overall series mythos might have been overstated. I'm still not sure how the hell Howard is relevant to anything except as a sloppily shoe-horned in retcon and also there's room to speculate that the Gillespie family tree might trace back to the two characters that star the comic.

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^We get a decent amount of backstory on Howard, and he shows up at least once an issue. As for it's place in the overall mythos, I think Past Life is very important. It's just not out in the open. You have to read between the lines and interpret a bit.

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"Once an issue" isn't very prominent, and he still doesn't demonstrate any fundamental importance in either work. You can remove him and it will play out pretty much mostly the same.

And, frankly, Past Life is insistently important; it's yet to demonstrate that importance. All we really have is the suggestion that people have been harassed by their inner demons for over a hundred years and that there's a magic baby. That's...not much. Even reading between the lines, all you have is Past Life begging the question. Nothing it really tries to tell us or answer is anything we really needed an answer to.

Howard is a retconned in character, and if I'm right about Alessa being a descendant of this baby, then...what about it? Is Alessa's family tree at all important? It was her sad life and her special occult circumstances that defined her story, and slapping a vague origin to that power is unnecessary.

And we don't need Past Life to suggest that the town has always been special. We already knew that.

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?

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He's not really retconned in just because he hasn't shown up before, is he? I don't think anything ever suggested that he would show up to every protagonist. We had never heard of Travis before Origins, but that doesn't mean he was retconned in, just that it is new information about someone we didn't know of before. And I've given my theory on Howard elsewhere.

And I don't think Alessa is a decedent of that baby. Downpour established that the Gillespie has been a prominent family living in Silent Hill for a long time, with that very name. So unless they adopted the magic baby...

That being said, I don't see how Past Life really connects to Downpour at all beyond Howard appearing in both. Nor do I see how Past Life is important to the overall Silent Hill mythos. But, at the very least, it's the first Silent Hill comic book that isn't clearly set in a completely different continuity. That's gotta be worth something.


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He's not really retconned in just because he hasn't shown up before, is he?


Well, what I mean by that is that he's basically this new 'aspect' of the town that we're asked to accept was ALWAYS there, and given implications of his being the mailman, I'm prepared for such 'revelations' as "Howard delivered Mary's letter to James" or something like that.

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We had never heard of Travis before Origins, but that doesn't mean he was retconned in, just that it is new information about someone we didn't know of before.


Well, Origins has other issues too, like retconning in new characteristics of the SH1 characters. A retcon is more than a CHANGE of information, it's also an insertion of information onto the backround of a work's continuity.

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And I don't think Alessa is a decedent of that baby. Downpour established that the Gillespie has been a prominent family living in Silent Hill for a long time, with that very name. So unless they adopted the magic baby...


Well, who knows? I was just offering my speculations to 'maximize' Past Life's possible importance. If the magic baby has no connection to characters in the games then it's properly irrelevant outside of the comic's self-contained story.

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That being said, I don't see how Past Life really connects to Downpour at all beyond Howard appearing in both. Nor do I see how Past Life is important to the overall Silent Hill mythos. But, at the very least, it's the first Silent Hill comic book that isn't clearly set in a completely different continuity. That's gotta be worth something.


Agreed. I truly enjoy the comic. Five stars, from me. But...I just don't see why I should really care about it, honestly. I was hyped for it to be a Distant Prequel to Downpour, and was totally geared for something like a reincarnation plot.

Nope. Just irrelevant plot threads and chekov's guns being set in place for future games. If anything disappoints me about Downpour and related products, it's that it doesn't want to be a self-contained episode and insists on setting itself up for some sort of future plot hook. It's honestly the first Silent Hill to try to do this, and until they're followed up on (IF they're followed up on, and not just left for 'speculations ooooooh'), they're just....unresolved, unanswerable questions. And not even unanswerable in the fun, ambiguously unknown sense, but in the "Yeaaaa, we just didn't care" sense.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
A retcon is more than a CHANGE of information, it's also an insertion of information onto the backround of a work's continuity.

Ah, yeah, I never took "retcon" to mean anything more than "the changing of established fact in the canon". So that's why I didn't really agree with calling Howard a retcon. All backstory is, by it's nature, established after the fact. So if something wants to add more to the backstory, so long as it doesn't contradict or retcon (in my understanding of the word) thing, I'm fine.

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Well, what I mean by that is that he's basically this new 'aspect' of the town that we're asked to accept was ALWAYS there, and given implications of his being the mailman, I'm prepared for such 'revelations' as "Howard delivered Mary's letter to James" or something like that.

I doubt they'd actually go there, since we already know where the letter "comes" from, although the thought of them adding some random flashback of James getting a letter from Howard during the opening monologue of SH2 is hilarious.

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Nope. Just irrelevant plot threads and chekov's guns being set in place for future games. If anything disappoints me about Downpour and related products, it's that it doesn't want to be a self-contained episode and insists on setting itself up for some sort of future plot hook. It's honestly the first Silent Hill to try to do this, and until they're followed up on (IF they're followed up on, and not just left for 'speculations ooooooh'), they're just....unresolved, unanswerable questions. And not even unanswerable in the fun, ambiguously unknown sense, but in the "Yeaaaa, we just didn't care" sense.

Well, I don't think it would be all that terrible for them to add some new unexplained ambiguous aspects to the series just for the sake of it. As we've all said many times, a problem with the series is that we know how it works. We know what Silent Hill does and we know how it's likely going to do it. We've gotten so used to things that there isn't really any intrigue or mystery in the series anymore. I think they have been trying to change that. With Shattered Memories, they made an effort to completely betray everything we thought we knew to keep us on our toes. But in order to do that, they had to set it in a different continuity. I think things like Past Life and Downpour, and the ambiguous aspects they bring to the series, are their way of adding new intrigue and mystery and making us question how things work, while also still "playing by the rules of the canon", if you will. It's a tricky task they are trying to accomplish if I am right, but it's one I support, so I'm willing to cut them some slack.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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Ah, yeah, I never took "retcon" to mean anything more than "the changing of established fact in the canon". So that's why I didn't really agree with calling Howard a retcon. All backstory is, by it's nature, established after the fact. So if something wants to add more to the backstory, so long as it doesn't contradict or retcon (in my understanding of the word) thing, I'm fine.


I still want to know why Howard butts into Murphy's business but no one else's.

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I doubt they'd actually go there, since we already know where the letter "comes" from, although the thought of them adding some random flashback of James getting a letter from Howard during the opening monologue of SH2 is hilarious.


I was imagining something like he puts it in his mailbox with 'magic', or something. He's called the Messenger of Silent Hill.

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Well, I don't think it would be all that terrible for them to add some new unexplained ambiguous aspects to the series just for the sake of it. As we've all said many times, a problem with the series is that we know how it works. We know what Silent Hill does and we know how it's likely going to do it. We've gotten so used to things that there isn't really any intrigue or mystery in the series anymore. I think they have been trying to change that.


I'm totally fine with that...it's just I'd rather it not something that strikes contrary to information. Why hasn't he done anything before? Why does Silent Hill need/use him when it seems just as effective without him? Why does Silent Hill now need some radio DJ to conduct it's business, all of a sudden?

Honestly, I'd rather have NEW developments, because it's been demonstrated that the Otherworld's power mutates. Adding new elements of it's nature retroactively only causes potential plotholes or shaky areas, and if it's already demonstrated that it's more effective at Tasks A and B without human assistance, why go out of it's way to suddenly involve them in it's operations?

I'd rather have something like with Book of Memories; some assholes use a magic book that has no business being near the Otherworld and apparently the resulting reality-warping causes everything to fall to SHIT in a handbasket.

Quote:
I think things like Past Life and Downpour, and the ambiguous aspects they bring to the series, are their way of adding new intrigue and mystery and making us question how things work, while also still "playing by the rules of the canon", if you will. It's a tricky task they are trying to accomplish if I am right, but it's one I support, so I'm willing to cut them some slack.


Me too, so despite how I must be coming across in this thread I don't REALLY mind that much, it's a very minor complaint that I just feel could've been easily dealt with; like Ryan's said in another thread, Silent Hill's being too bloated, and I'm getting a little sick of changing Silent Hill's rules via retcons and prequels. Let's have some reputable psychic forces mess up Silent Hill in the future or something, like Alessa did back in the 70's, or something. Let's have more Walters who bring their Not-Quite-Otherworlds to other towns who aren't prepared to handle such a nightmare.

Something better than the goddamn Magical Negro. Downpour has two of those, and both of them are unnecessary and flat and problematic and shoe-horned in. They serve no purpose. Howard is just there to be OOOOH WEEIRD and DJ Ricks is just a cocktease.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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The magic baby was born under supernatural circumstances the same night a great fire broke out in Silent Hill. Doesn't that ring a few bells? The baby could even have been adopted by the Gillespies or married into them later on, but that's not important. Like Seth Creviston said, the end of Past Life is only the beginning. Oh, and as for Howard, a black man with supernatural powers does not a Magical Negro make.

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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The magic baby was born under supernatural circumstances the same night a great fire broke out in Silent Hill. Doesn't that ring a few bells?


That's what I was thinking.

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Oh, and as for Howard, a black man with supernatural powers does not a Magical Negro make.


It does when they act as flags, triggers, and guides for the white man's spiritual journey, dispensing fragments of possibly useful but cryptic "down to earth" wisdom. Howard Blackwood is a perfectly archetypal Magical Negro, except he's not being used for the original moral aesop of "Black people are people too!" so much as "This town is fucking haunted gtfo."

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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He's not there specifically to guide Murphy, IMO. He's a neutral presence who's there to deliver the mail, nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I still want to know why Howard butts into Murphy's business but no one else's.

Yeah, I guess if we want to accept Howard we are just going to have to cut them some slack on this one. Personally, I'm fine with thinking that Howard doesn't appear to or get used on everyone, and him appearing to Murphy was just random. And as such, while I am fine with Howard, I don't want to see him in EVERY Silent Hill from now on. Every once in awhile, though, that's fine.

Quote:
I was imagining something like he puts it in his mailbox with 'magic', or something. He's called the Messenger of Silent Hill.

But that's not nearly as hilarious!

Quote:
I'm totally fine with that...it's just I'd rather it not something that strikes contrary to information. Why hasn't he done anything before? Why does Silent Hill need/use him when it seems just as effective without him? Why does Silent Hill now need some radio DJ to conduct it's business, all of a sudden?

Yeah, I do kinda agree with that. I'm fine with Howard, but I don't really see the point to him when we know the town can call people and push them in the right direction without someone "delivering the mail", but when Howard shows up, he does seem kinda cool in a way, so...

And I maintain that I think DJ Ricks was just someone trapped in Silent Hill. He wasn't DJing for the town, his experience just bleed into Murphy's so the "town", if you will, used that. I don't think DJ Ricks was doing things for the town like Howard was.

Quote:
Honestly, I'd rather have NEW developments, because it's been demonstrated that the Otherworld's power mutates. Adding new elements of it's nature retroactively only causes potential plotholes or shaky areas, and if it's already demonstrated that it's more effective at Tasks A and B without human assistance, why go out of it's way to suddenly involve them in it's operations?

I'd rather have something like with Book of Memories; some assholes use a magic book that has no business being near the Otherworld and apparently the resulting reality-warping causes everything to fall to SHIT in a handbasket.

[...]

Me too, so despite how I must be coming across in this thread I don't REALLY mind that much, it's a very minor complaint that I just feel could've been easily dealt with; like Ryan's said in another thread, Silent Hill's being too bloated, and I'm getting a little sick of changing Silent Hill's rules via retcons and prequels. Let's have some reputable psychic forces mess up Silent Hill in the future or something, like Alessa did back in the 70's, or something. Let's have more Walters who bring their Not-Quite-Otherworlds to other towns who aren't prepared to handle such a nightmare.

Something better than the goddamn Magical Negro. Downpour has two of those, and both of them are unnecessary and flat and problematic and shoe-horned in. They serve no purpose. Howard is just there to be OOOOH WEEIRD and DJ Ricks is just a cocktease.

Yeah, I agree with most of the things you said here. I quite liked Downpour and all that, but the things you say here sound right too. I'd respond to this part better, but sadly I am now in a hurry and have to leave. :/


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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He's not there specifically to guide Murphy, IMO. He's a neutral presence who's there to deliver the mail, nothing more.


Yes, I'm aware. But in the actual narrative that unfolds, he acts as a guide for our spiritually troubled protagonist. Who happens to be Caucasian.

So yea, he's a Magical Negro by textbook definition. Just like God is a Magical Negro in Bruce Almighty. Their existence and role in the fictional universe outside of the protagonist's lives don't change that they appeal to certain tropes within the work itself.

Quote:
Yeah, I guess if we want to accept Howard we are just going to have to cut them some slack on this one. Personally, I'm fine with thinking that Howard doesn't appear to or get used on everyone, and him appearing to Murphy was just random. And as such, while I am fine with Howard, I don't want to see him in EVERY Silent Hill from now on. Every once in awhile, though, that's fine.


I agree. I just want something to go on as far as what he's supposed to mean and why he's there. Even if it's contradicting information, it'd be something to work off of. There's NOTHING about the guy, really, except he was around for over a hundred years and he delivers mail. Any speculation you make about him would be near-baseless, which isn't as fun. :P

Quote:
But that's not nearly as hilarious!


Holy shit, even better mental image. Howard and the Nameless Nun TEAMED UP to get Mary's letter to Laura.

Quote:
Yeah, I do kinda agree with that. I'm fine with Howard, but I don't really see the point to him when we know the town can call people and push them in the right direction without someone "delivering the mail", but when Howard shows up, he does seem kinda cool in a way, so...

And I maintain that I think DJ Ricks was just someone trapped in Silent Hill. He wasn't DJing for the town, his experience just bleed into Murphy's so the "town", if you will, used that. I don't think DJ Ricks was doing things for the town like Howard was.


Right, so why was Ricks DJing at all? Who was phoning in? Who was informing him about Murphy? Etc...

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Holy shit, even better mental image. Howard and the Nameless Nun TEAMED UP to get Mary's letter to Laura.

I honestly forgot that nun even existed... :l

Quote:
Right, so why was Ricks DJing at all? Who was phoning in? Who was informing him about Murphy? Etc...

As silly as it sounds, I felt like Ricks DJing was part of his Silent Hill... maybe? I honestly don't know. The main thing with Ricks is that I don't think the town wanted him to sit there and DJ, if the town wants anything at all. In the gallery it said that he met the fate he did because he couldn't take action at all. Like a cautionary tale or something, because he just sat there DJing and didn't go explore or something, I guess?

Man, I really don't know. Whatever they were going for Ricks... I think I kinda get it, but I don't. I don't think he is a mysterious person who was guiding Murphy, since Murphy says he got the impressions Ricks didn't belong as much as he did, but... I dunno.

And I still think it was the town that was sending Ricks the dedications. Like, it was just something that happened. I forget where, but I made the comparison to memos directed to main characters and the game show in the elevator from SH2 earlier. Just... something weird, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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I honestly forgot that nun even existed... :l


Yea, actually, what the hell? Why the hell are all these 'servants of the town' coming out of the damn woodwork? There's three in a single game.

Jesus christ, Waltz I love you, but we don't really want these characters as a fandom. The town doesn't need mouthpieces and errand-runners.

Quote:
As silly as it sounds, I felt like Ricks DJing was part of his Silent Hill... maybe? I honestly don't know. The main thing with Ricks is that I don't think the town wanted him to sit there and DJ, if the town wants anything at all. In the gallery it said that he met the fate he did because he couldn't take action at all. Like a cautionary tale or something, because he just sat there DJing and didn't go explore or something, I guess?


I totally posted an awesome baseless crackpot idea for Ricks in KingCrimson's hypothesis thread. Go take a look.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
I honestly forgot that nun even existed... :l


Yea, actually, what the hell? Why the hell are all these 'servants of the town' coming out of the damn woodwork? There's three in a single game.

Jesus christ, Waltz I love you, but we don't really want these characters as a fandom. The town doesn't need mouthpieces and errand-runners.


I may be completely wrong, but I think there's been some talk of how the new direction of the series is going to make the town its own type of character. So taking focus away from the cult of the town and looking at the town itself. (Personally happy about this because I feel the best way to keep Silent Hill going isn't to dwell on its past stories.) So perhaps these people stuck in the town are just a way of the next few games telling the story of the town itself. As a character?

The reason these characters weren't in Silent Hill 1, 3 or 4 is because those stories were meant to focus on the Cult as the main characters.

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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?
     
         
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Yes, but entries such as SH2 have demonstrated that all of these human 'minions' aren't necessary for the town to do whatever it wants to do or is trying to accomplish. That's my problem, here; they're not necessary. If they want to explore the 'character' of the town, there's more optimal ways to do so that doesn't require giving the town a whole bunch of puppets to be conveyed through.

It's one of the major reasons no one liked the original IDW comics. It was full of entities speaking and acting on the town's behalf; Christabella, Lauryn, Whateley, the Grinning Man...

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: The comic books: how important are they?

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Yea, actually, what the hell? Why the hell are all these 'servants of the town' coming out of the damn woodwork? There's three in a single game.

Jesus christ, Waltz I love you, but we don't really want these characters as a fandom. The town doesn't need mouthpieces and errand-runners.

Well, I'm probably going to assume that nun was a manifestation for Murphy as opposed to another "servant of the town". We know that Murphy grew up in an orphanage, and possibly even THAT one, so it fits for that character to manifest for him. In her info in the gallery, Murphy pretty much just talks about his impression of the nuns when he lived in the orphanage, so yeah.

Quote:
I totally posted an awesome baseless crackpot idea for Ricks in KingCrimson's hypothesis thread. Go take a look.

Looking forward to it!

AuraTwilight wrote:
It's one of the major reasons no one liked the original IDW comics. It was full of entities speaking and acting on the town's behalf; Christabella, Lauryn, Whateley, the Grinning Man...

Yeah. Well, that and the fact that they were shit. But we all know that.


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Yeah, Howard isn't completely fucking stupid like Whately or Christabella. Tom Waltz actually understands subtlety, and well, Silent Hill.

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