The meanings of the hauntings (SPOILERS)

Henry's locked in his apartment and can't get out. Bless.

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DarKerry
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Post by DarKerry »

^_^-

So much upset over such a small thing... is it a sign of insecurity or simply the christian ferver reborn?

As convincing as that reality (reality here being perception) really is, if you think about it, that still does not totally disprove my theory either. Should all this be "the memory of a dream" so to speak, should it all be the combined delusions/illusions of poor demented brains, my theory is quite possible. It merely depends on which ending you take to be the cannon ending on whether or not either of us is right.

I do love your enthusiasm, really I do, but I still see that my idea still could have some merit to it, even as yours has some as well. But, if you don't mind my saying so, there is quite a few ifs in both theories. (I don't believe that any one person may be completely right in this sort of argument. There are too many loopholes.)

Besides all that...

What is a soul? Is it really something you can control? The essance of life? What makes us human? Is that what a soul is? Or is it the sum of our memories? Or perhaps the "true" us no one sees, but that comes about in the darkest of times/realities. It could even be the sum of feelings, if you thing about it. But, really, you cannot answer this question. No one can. They've been looking for the answer for centuries. As I said, I believe that to determine exactly what Walter is controling, you'd have to have the definition for such a term as a "soul", yes?

^_^() I don't really think in straight lines...
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Post by Mis Krist. »

>So much upset over such a small thing... is it a sign of insecurity or simply the christian ferver reborn?

I don't see this causing any particular upset. I'm just asking you to explain yourself, as I didn't quite get your previous statements.

So basically you don't think Walter can control these spirits because there isn't a set definition of what the soul is? Well.. I think there's a definite distinction between spirit and soul. A soul is untouchable--that's yours forever. A spirit is an imprint of yourself as a person--e.g., ghosts. Ghosts, as we see in SH4, can certainly be 'controlled' in the sense that Walter imprisons them in his world. Whether or not he makes them do anything is up for grabs, but he does have enough sway over their fate to lock them inside his domain. I do think this is indisputable as it's shown in the game, and even told to us by said game in one of the very first memos we receive.
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Post by DarKerry »

Where was the "apparent"ness in the game?

I can show you many people who still believe it is a "soul" that Walter controls.

You yourself said just a moment ago that it was the soul that was being used. Correction, not only one, but many.

It is told in the first memos? That it's a spirit, not a soul? That there is a difference in the game? The game does give a definition for each thing, then?

I don't remember getting any such memo... Could you send it to me?

I've said it before. I'm not in it to see "who's the most brilliant person" or "who is going to win". I promise. ^_^- My intentions, my curiousity, are pure.
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Post by Mis Krist. »

>You yourself said just a moment ago that it was the soul that was being used. Correction, not only one, but many.

Semantics, really. I used the wrong word. Replace my usage of the word soul with spirit--it doesn't change my statement in any way.

>Where was the "apparent"ness in the game?
In how every person he kills appears in his domain, trapped and unable to escape. Turn on the game for fifteen minutes and you'll notice.

>I don't remember getting any such memo... Could you send it to me?
Through the Ritual of the Holy Assumption, he built a world.
It exists in a space separate from the world of our Lord.
More accurately, it is within, yet without the Lord's world.
Unlike the world of our Lord, it is a world in extreme flux.
Unexpected doors or walls, moving floors, odd creatures, a world only him can
control...
Anyone swallowed up by that world will live there for eternity, undying.
They will haunt that realm as a spirit.

How can our Lord forgive such an abomination...?
(This part of the book is too damaged to read.)
...It is important to travel lightly in that world. He who carries too heavy
a burden will regret it...
(The book is too damaged to read any more.)


It's the second memo you find, it you already read the child Walter's scribble to his father. The bolded parts are my emphasis. We learn he can control the world and that anyone "swallowed up" by the world will "haunt that realm as a spirit." Spirit, ghost. The interpretation of "swallowed up" is open, yes, but I think it's safe to say that being killed by him = swallowed up.

>I've said it before. I'm not in it to see "who's the most brilliant person" or "who is going to win". I promise. ^_^- My intentions, my curiousity, are pure.

You don't have to repeat it, either. I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. This is what forums are for: debating.
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Post by DarKerry »

I see what you're talking about now.

But it doesn't specify either.

Many people do exactly as you just did... using one word for another. What's important here is the use of them verses their definitions in a given context, as, in general, their definitions are debatable.

I've not seen in this entire segmant... or the game for that matter, the determination between spirit and soul.

You could easily "assume read" the word "soul" in there... as souls are usually associated with heaven "paradise", God(s), ghosts, etc, which seem to be the reoccuring theme in Silent Hill games. It doesn't speak frankly of what a soul is verses what a spirit is.

I've read this many times...

>>>Where was the "apparent"ness in the game?
In how every person he kills appears in his domain, trapped and unable to escape. Turn on the game for fifteen minutes and you'll notice.

How is this apparent? If he stole someone's soul, which we still have not determined what that is, then this could still be possible, right?

>I don't remember getting any such memo... Could you send it to me?
Through the Ritual of the Holy Assumption, he built a world.
It exists in a space separate from the world of our Lord.
More accurately, it is within, yet without the Lord's world.
Unlike the world of our Lord, it is a world in extreme flux.
Unexpected doors or walls, moving floors, odd creatures, a world only him can
control...
Anyone swallowed up by that world will live there for eternity, undying.
They will haunt that realm as a spirit.
How can our Lord forgive such an abomination...?
(This part of the book is too damaged to read.)
...It is important to travel lightly in that world. He who carries too heavy
a burden will regret it...
(The book is too damaged to read any more.)


As a spirit. sometimes used as a term meaning "ghost". This could mean that the soul takes form as a spirit, as in the corrupted form of Walter's veiw of them. Do you see what I'm saying? It's beautifully vague in this aspect... and yet, we still have no definition for what both of these words are; Spirit and Soul.

But! We can assume by the use of religious terms that we are speaking of souls, which is interesting, seeing as it appears to be written by some sort of religious fanatic. It's kind of off from Joseph's writings and there's no date.

Could be that the person from whom's persective we're seeing this is off entirely, except for the fact that 1) we must be wary of the ghosts; they do exist in his world and 2) don't carry too much, glutton!
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Post by Mis Krist. »

I'm stating a personal belief when I say soul /=/ spirit. Hence, I'm basing my theory off of my personal belief--just like you're basing your theory that Walter can't control souls off of your own.

>How is this apparent? If he stole someone's soul, which we still have not determined what that is, then this could still be possible, right?

Then you try explaining to me how they can't get out and are declared as trapped. If Walter has no control over them, then how do you explain his victims being trapped in his world every single time he kills them? And in Eileen's case, possesses them?

>Could be that the person from whom's persective we're seeing this is off entirely, except for the fact that 1) we must be wary of the ghosts; they do exist in his world and 2) don't carry too much, glutton!

It's probable. I just find the note interesting and relevant to the discussion at hand.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

How many times have we gone on about what "is possible" verses what "is real"? Now, if you will look back at all the other arguements on other threads you've made, we cannot take into account that he's fictional. (Sorry, but that's how you've all been arguing.) I've said millions of times in not out and out ways that he's fictional, therefore, not everything about him will be as we think it should as it is how the WRITERS thought it should be. (Wow! Reality check!) All we can really do is speculate the evidence.
The fact that he's fictional doesn't mean much aside from the fact that it makes it possible for Walter to have supernatural powers, which he does. He can drag people's souls into his dream world while they sleep, how hard would it be to keep them there after they die?
And, if Alessa was "pshycic" as you claim, which, hell, is possible in a very very loose sense, why not? Alessa projected Cybil out there to keep Harry busy. Weirder things "have" happened.
Alessa is very psychic. How the hell CAN'T she? It's one of the prime ideas that drive the series.

And if anything, Dahlia projected Cybil, since Alessa had no idea she was around until much later.
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Post by DarKerry »

Krist. wrote:I'm stating a personal belief when I say soul /=/ spirit. Hence, I'm basing my theory off of my personal belief--just like you're basing your theory that Walter can't control souls off of your own.

>How is this apparent? If he stole someone's soul, which we still have not determined what that is, then this could still be possible, right?

Then you try explaining to me how they can't get out and are declared as trapped. If Walter has no control over them, then how do you explain his victims being trapped in his world every single time he kills them? And in Eileen's case, possesses them?

Souls have still not been defined, so I'll paste a definition from a dictionary and use that for reference, for now.

soul [sōl] (plural souls) n
1. nonphysical aspect of person: the complex of human attributes that manifests as consciousness, thought, feeling, and will, regarded as distinct from the physical body
2. feelings: a person's emotional and moral nature, where the most private thoughts and feelings are hidden
Her soul was in turmoil.
3. spirit surviving death: in some systems of religious belief, the spiritual part of a human being that is believed to continue to exist after the body dies.
The soul is sometimes regarded as subject to future reward and punishment, and sometimes as able to take a form that allows it to remain on or return to earth.
4. spiritual depth: evidence of spiritual or emotional depth and sensitivity, either in a person or in something created by a person
Though technically perfect, the drawing lacked soul.
5. essence: the deepest and truest nature of people or a nation, or what gives somebody or something a distinctive character
In my travels I hoped to discover the soul of the Russian people.

6. type of person: somebody of a particular type, especially one regarded sympathetically or with familiarity
Poor soul! What will he do now?
7. anyone: anyone at all (used in negative statements)
You have to promise not to tell a soul.
8. individual person: an individual person, especially when thought of as making up the number of a group (usually used in the plural)
a country of some 10 million souls
9. perfect example: a good example, or personification, of a positive quality
The hotel manager was the soul of discretion.
10. somebody essential to something: the leader of or the most influential person in a group or movement
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

spir·it [spírrət] n (plural spir·its)
1. life force of person: the vital force that characterizes a human being as being alive
2. will: will or sense of self
He retained an indomitable spirit.
3. enthusiasm: enthusiasm and energy
Alice responded with spirit.
4. disposition: somebody's personality or temperament
She has a generous spirit.
5. attitude: a person's attitude or state of mind
in the spirit of compromise

6. group loyalty: the enthusiasm and loyalty that somebody feels through belonging to a group
school spirit
7. important influence: somebody or something that is a divine, inspiring, or animating influence
one of the guiding spirits of the Peace Movement
8. real meaning: the intention behind something such as a rule or decree, rather than its literal interpretation
9. shared outlook: the prevailing mood or outlook characteristic of a place or time
10. person: somebody who displays a particular quality
11. soul: in some beliefs, somebody's soul, especially that of a dead person
12. paranormal supernatural entity: a supernatural being that does not have a physical body, e.g. a ghost, angel, or demon

13. beverages alcoholic drink: a strong alcoholic liquor made by distillation (often used in the plural)
She never drank spirits.
14. chemistry distilled liquid: any liquid produced by distillation, especially a distilled solution of ethanol and water (often used in the plural)
15. chemistry alcoholic solution: a solution of an essence or volatile substance in alcohol (often used in the plural) or spir·its, npl
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Clear as mud, isn't it?


I thought the issue was WHAT he trapped, not if he really trapped it... obviously he has gotten something. Be it a piece of their life, captured from bringing them into his world and killing them, ergo, a piece of their essence "as remembered by Walter", reproduced by his memories, much like his world of constant flux ( which, might or might not be as things really were, as it's how he remembers things), with the ghost of what/who they were embodied in a grotesque way, but there again, there is argument to debate that that is not it either... it's a very strange topic, full of twists... It's interesting to think about.

There is no denying he killed these people... My "sensible" mind wants to say that the Sacraments says to kill them, to shed the blood of people that the person "wielding the axe" so to speak has memories of these specific crimes, coloring the memories of these people, and it Walter's case, creating very like "ghosts" of them in his little world. (Have you ever been in a room that you're so used to that you don't even need to look around and then go into a room you've never been in before? When you get used to the new room and go back into the old one, the old one feels differently. It's not that something's changed, it's that you're more aware of things, aspects, you weren't before. We've seen that Walter has very set veiws of the victims with names. (placards))

My thoughts are, what if what he really got was the little connection of him to these people embodied in the ghosts? What if the ghosts are very much like the world he created? I haven't heard this theory hashed out much because Walter killed these people and, if you make connections the way the notes lead you to, you believe that these are the "spirits"/"souls"...whatsoever terminology you choose... of the victims. This would also lend to my idea of Walter creating a double edged sword when he "made/created/embodied" Joseph as what he remembers. Joseph was a terrible snoop... and since it's his job to Give wisdom, he's really not bending Walter's rules by giving Henry everything he needs, who is also not bending or breaking any rules by receiving these tidbits.

Walter was beat by his own game... or not, depending on your ending. Eileen being possessed was a strange moment for me... but it's pretty commonly established that in "Walter's World" (Otherworld, Nowhere, whatever you choose to call it... Abominable World, if you go by previously quoted note) that you're not in your body when you go there. (Unless you really believe there's a hole in every wall in every building Henry appears in... in which case... I'd like to study you more... :grin:) Perhaps what's really happening is Eileen is accepting Walter's veiw of things. Henry seems to constantly be fighting it... but Eileen doesn't seem to know how alone. If it weren't for Henry... mayhap Eileen would have succumbed pretty easily to Walter... she seems a very innocent and weak minded opponent, doesn't she?


>Could be that the person from who’s perspective we're seeing this is off entirely, except for the fact that 1) we must be wary of the ghosts; they do exist in his world and 2) don't carry too much, glutton!

It's probable. I just find the note interesting and relevant to the discussion at hand.
Twas, twas. And it is. ^_^- On both sides. I always wondered who wrote it... and how it ended up in Henry's apartment...
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Post by Mis Krist. »

But mud isn't clear... You quoted a definition at me. That's not going to change what I think about souls and spirits and their differences.

I actually don't understand a word about what you're trying to say.
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Post by DarKerry »

^^() Speak straight lines, Kerry... straight lines...

The definition was to illustrate how very unclear the definitions for the two words are. The range of uses overlaps and is so wide that it's very very very hard to determine what they mean at all.

As for the last part, we're going back to my first point.

Walter created the ghosts in his mind from his memories and point of view, as he did his world, and made them "real" by killing/spilling the blood of his victims.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I happen to disagree. It just seems much more logical that, since he can draw in and corrupt personalities such as Eileen, TOTALLY corrupting them should be a simple thing to do once he kills them. Plus, I wouldn't say a person was "doomed" to haunt some place forever if it's not really them.

As for the soul/spirit thing, I just equate both terms as synonyms of Consciousness/Mind. That's probably how it's intended in the games.
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Post by Squarehead »

Plus, I wouldn't say a person was "doomed" to haunt some place forever if it's not really them.
Yes the note said that, but the note was most likely written by some batshit Fred Phelps insane religious crackpot type. Walter just happened to believe in that mumbo jumbo. Now the question is: if Walter believes that "Anyone swallowed up by that world will live there for eternity, undying. They will haunt that realm as a spirit." does that mean that

a) he deliberately and actively imprisons the spirits into the otherworld individually,
b) the otherworld is able to imprison the spirits becouse Walter believes in the crimson tomes and other things,
or
c) Walter's believes that their souls will be trapped so his mind creates ghostly versions of the victims to fill that hole? He is crazy afterall, and he created ghostly versions of the locations and things.

Now the first possibility seems wrong becouse the note says that the world swallows up the victims' souls, not the one who is following the rituals but the world itself. So i think that's out. And honestly, could Walter himself even tell the difference of the latter two possibilities? Both of them would be perceived the same. So i believe there's at least a small possibility the ghosts are just creations like all the places in the otherworld.
It just seems much more logical that, since he can draw in and corrupt personalities such as Eileen, TOTALLY corrupting them should be a simple thing to do once he kills them.
Hmmm, good point. But is that really Eileen anymore? And what about the monsters, what the hell are they then? Is the one with the two babyheads really the souls of the twins? I doubt it. And the other monsters, surely Walter just pulled them out of his ass.

So what i'm saying is nobody is wrong, that the ghosts could be mockeries of their human counterparts or they could be proper lost souls.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Yes the note said that, but the note was most likely written by some batshit Fred Phelps insane religious crackpot type. Walter just happened to believe in that mumbo jumbo. Now the question is: if Walter believes that "Anyone swallowed up by that world will live there for eternity, undying. They will haunt that realm as a spirit." does that mean that

a) he deliberately and actively imprisons the spirits into the otherworld individually,
b) the otherworld is able to imprison the spirits becouse Walter believes in the crimson tomes and other things,
or
c) Walter's believes that their souls will be trapped so his mind creates ghostly versions of the victims to fill that hole? He is crazy afterall, and he created ghostly versions of the locations and things.

Now the first possibility seems wrong becouse the note says that the world swallows up the victims' souls, not the one who is following the rituals but the world itself. So i think that's out. And honestly, could Walter himself even tell the difference of the latter two possibilities? Both of them would be perceived the same. So i believe there's at least a small possibility the ghosts are just creations like all the places in the otherworld.
Yea, I'll agree A is out, but there is a meaningful distinction between B and C, in my opinion. I mean, look at it from say, Cynthia's point of view. She dies and she either degenerates into the ghost we see to run consistent with the rest of the plot, or she wakes up in Heaven or goes to Reincarnate or some silly thing. Even if she's just blotting out of existence as a consciousness, it seems to deter from the meaning of the Sacraments, to me.

But here's something to think about. If the ghosts ARE just mockeries, will the summoning of God be successful?
But is that really Eileen anymore?
Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be?
And what about the monsters, what the hell are they then? Is the one with the two babyheads really the souls of the twins? I doubt it. And the other monsters, surely Walter just pulled them out of his ass.
Well, none of the monsters are claimed to be people in the first place, so they're moot save for Victims 07+08, which I think still doesn't matter because the Locane children never died in Otherworld.
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Post by DarKerry »

It just seems much more logical that, since he can draw in and corrupt personalities such as Eileen, TOTALLY corrupting them should be a simple thing to do once he kills them.
... it seems to deter from the meaning of the Sacraments, to me.

But here's something to think about. If the ghosts ARE just mockeries, will the summoning of God be successful?
Why wouldn't it be? Walter has created an entire world in flux and populated it with little monstrosities from his mind. ALL from his mind. Why in the world couldn't, if he believes it, he create his God? But, he doesn't believe that he can do it without the 21 Sacrements. Theres his rules to follow. His boundries set up in his mind. Every mind puts up boarders for itself. We believe we can or cannot do something, and eventually those boundaries become set walls for us.

We don't see the game from Cynthia's point of view. We are led to believe, IN WALTER'S WORLD (which Walter is "King" of) she was degenerated into the ghost thing. Peachyriffic. But, in truth, we never see things from Cynthia's point of view in this game, do we? We will never know from whence she came, or where she goes. We are led to assume things. But how many times in Silent Hill is everything as it seems? Dahlia lied to Harry in her quest and fooled us for a while. James believed he was totally innocent until the last few moments of the game.

Eileen and Henry, once they find each other and start moving through the worlds, are not in their bodies anymore. If they were, Henry would not be trapped in his bloody apartment, now would he? And Eileen would be able to follow him in to the rabbit hole back to the hell pit his apartment becomes. Why didn't he just totally corrupt her to begin with? Because his mind set out rules. Not only that, but the environment, like with any human, will affect her mind. It plays with everyone, being trapped in a nightmare in only hours ago your biggest worry was getting to a party on time. Eileen's very character is innocence. When she's surrounded by the screwed up version of the world Walter sees, of course she's going to be corrupted. Any innocent mind would. So why didn't Walter just totally corrupt her, kill the wench before the final battle, then go after Henry, instead of chasing Henry first? (when I played, Walter seemed much more interested in what I was doing than Eileen obliviously scrounging through her bag.)

Yes, none of the monsters except 7&8 are claimed to be people, but that only furthers my point. He created them from nothing. They are representations of his troubled mind and past. So what's stopping him, since he believes in this with rock solid faith, from doing the exact same thing with his ghosties?
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Why wouldn't it be? Walter has created an entire world in flux and populated it with little monstrosities from his mind. ALL from his mind. Why in the world couldn't, if he believes it, he create his God? But, he doesn't believe that he can do it without the 21 Sacrements. Theres his rules to follow. His boundries set up in his mind. Every mind puts up boarders for itself. We believe we can or cannot do something, and eventually those boundaries become set walls for us.
I'm aware, but from the way things are set up, it seems like he needs the actual souls of all the Sacraments to perform a proper summoning.
We don't see the game from Cynthia's point of view. We are led to believe, IN WALTER'S WORLD (which Walter is "King" of) she was degenerated into the ghost thing. Peachyriffic. But, in truth, we never see things from Cynthia's point of view in this game, do we? We will never know from whence she came, or where she goes. We are led to assume things. But how many times in Silent Hill is everything as it seems? Dahlia lied to Harry in her quest and fooled us for a while. James believed he was totally innocent until the last few moments of the game.
Correct. We're led to believe that she indeed becomes such a ghost, so what is there to conclude otherwise? Atleast with Dahlia's lies and James' delusions they were eventually uncovered to be false.
Eileen and Henry, once they find each other and start moving through the worlds, are not in their bodies anymore. If they were, Henry would not be trapped in his bloody apartment, now would he? And Eileen would be able to follow him in to the rabbit hole back to the hell pit his apartment becomes. Why didn't he just totally corrupt her to begin with? Because his mind set out rules. Not only that, but the environment, like with any human, will affect her mind. It plays with everyone, being trapped in a nightmare in only hours ago your biggest worry was getting to a party on time. Eileen's very character is innocence. When she's surrounded by the screwed up version of the world Walter sees, of course she's going to be corrupted. Any innocent mind would. So why didn't Walter just totally corrupt her, kill the wench before the final battle, then go after Henry, instead of chasing Henry first? (when I played, Walter seemed much more interested in what I was doing than Eileen obliviously scrounging through her bag.)
You didn't say anything in that I didn't agree with except for "Oh, it's the environment corrupting her." When it's specifically stated to be Walter by Joseph. He's "taking her over.", proportional to the wounds she takes on, which leads me to think that death would lead to 100% take over, like with the ghosts.
Yes, none of the monsters except 7&8 are claimed to be people, but that only furthers my point. He created them from nothing. They are representations of his troubled mind and past. So what's stopping him, since he believes in this with rock solid faith, from doing the exact same thing with his ghosties?
Stickler for details, but the monsters are said to have spontaneously evolved in an interview. I don't think Walter created them in the same way monsters were in the previous installments. I'm aware nothing's stopping him from doing it with the ghosties, but what's stopping him from manipulating the actual spirit of a person, and why should we go with the "construct" theory if the game deliberately leads us on to believe the "literal spirit" theory with no counter-evidence?
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Post by DarKerry »

why should we go with the "construct" theory if the game deliberately leads us on to believe the "literal spirit" theory with no counter-evidence?
Why would we get counter-evidence? From the first opening sequence, we're locked into Walter's world. Henry never comes out, unlike Cynthia (according to some theories) who was pulled in because she was drunk (hungover) and suseptable to Walter's reality.

But if you look at it from a scientific point of veiw, everything I've been saying does add up. (except for the Walter having holy powers or something...)

I totally understand that it would cheapen your veiw of the game. That's fine. But, from where I'm standing, my ideas are no more far fetched than yours. Not only that, but there's no rock solid evidence we can put forward to say it IS this way or it IS that way.

We can't ever really go in and study what makes the victims, Walter and Henry work, can we? It's like looking at fossils... you can speculate to the ends of the earth... and still all you have is dirt.
When it's specifically stated to be Walter by Joseph.
Henry and Joseph are both trapped in Walter's world. Do you really think telling Henry that it's basically because Eileen's a ditz will do anything but confuse and frustrate the man? Joseph is set to the same rules Henry is, Walter's Rules, but he's trying to help Henry with the leniance given him. (leaving behind little tidbits to help Henry survive)

And, if my theory were correct, Joseph's ghost is infact doing exactly as Walter deems good and solidifying the fact that his world is real (something you might not believe if you just woke up there) and guiding him in the direction Walter requires. It's existance comes from this, it can be destroyed this way, these are the rules to get from A to B. Doing exactly as he was designed to do, with the odd quirk from the memory of the real thing. To me, this seems plausible. I mean, doesn't it?
He's "taking her over.", proportional to the wounds she takes on, which leads me to think that death would lead to 100% take over, like with the ghosts.
But that still doesn't tell me why he didn't just kill her. She's not a fighter... she's really quite easy to get alone, actually... and she's 20 while Henry is 21... yet he still goes after Henry first, breaking/bending his own rules.
She was already injured. But she wasn't taken over at all in the beginning. (the broken/bandaged arm) Supposedly, she was badly enough hurt to go to the hospital... Meaning it was probably pretty damned serious. and if Walter was in her room killing her, we can assume she was in his world at the time. (she saw Wally, after all) ...maybe the corruption was that she's totally oblivious to everything going on around her? (that would make sense too, actually...) When she's with me, she pays absolutely no attention to the ghosts. (Cynthia had a lot of fun with her...)

Stay with me for a moment. From an early age, our environment affects us. The "newer", the more innocent, we are, the more it changes us, unless the environtment is equally "clean". Walter, for example, warped by his environment from a very early age. Eileen, we are led to believe, led a very happy, very innocent, very clean life. (Walter talks about when she was a kid, being happy, etc. And she seems pretty normal for a young twenty something girl. "...I hope things get better before the party..." She really doesn't have a whole lot of big worries or pain in her life, until she notices her next door neighbor is acting a LITTLE strange...) Then suddenly she's attacked, nearly killed, scarred for life and dumped into Walter's nightmare/paradise/whathaveyou. Quite a shake up. From living in quiet little Down Town Ashfeild, to Hell in a Cradle Basket.

Tell me that wouldn't affect you.
Atleast with Dahlia's lies and James' delusions they were eventually uncovered to be false.
There comes a point in those games where you NEED to know to continue on the character's and antagonists' set path. In this game, you never really play outside the nightmare. What's real to Walter becomes important to you. You have to follow his rules to get out alive. You don't get the luxery of taking some time off from Otherworld. That's why I think Joseph was Walter's creation. (his ghost, not him) Because he never really says anything about what he found out about the Sullivan case except what Walter believes in. Usually, journalists are more "fact" or "science" oriented. Not "I found a sword that helps against the ghosts." He never goes on to say that he had a moment that he didn't think it was real. Most reporters and detectives I've heard of save the supernatural bit for last, if at all.

Being in Walter's World did corrupt him, yes, but for someone who "wants to reveal the truth for tomorrow's generation," or some such silly slogan, he sure didn't tell us anything but what we needed to know to move forward one step at a time, considering he's the Giver of Wisdom, telling us how to destroy the very thing Walter wanted us to build. He seems intellegent... but he did when he was alive as well, didn't he? Only now, he seems very scatter brained... we could have used a lot of the info we got later when we were trying to save the first four victims, huh? And I found it interesting that you couldn't find the key next to your bed laying out in the open until Joseph decided to tell you about it.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Why would we get counter-evidence? From the first opening sequence, we're locked into Walter's world. Henry never comes out, unlike Cynthia (according to some theories) who was pulled in because she was drunk (hungover) and suseptable to Walter's reality.
If it's wrong, why would they give us no way to deduce that?
But if you look at it from a scientific point of veiw, everything I've been saying does add up. (except for the Walter having holy powers or something...)
Sure, until you look up the meaning of science.
We can't ever really go in and study what makes the victims, Walter and Henry work, can we? It's like looking at fossils... you can speculate to the ends of the earth... and still all you have is dirt.
Sure, until you STUDY the fossils.
Henry and Joseph are both trapped in Walter's world. Do you really think telling Henry that it's basically because Eileen's a ditz will do anything but confuse and frustrate the man? Joseph is set to the same rules Henry is, Walter's Rules, but he's trying to help Henry with the leniance given him. (leaving behind little tidbits to help Henry survive)
Right, and Joseph is the Giver of Wisdom. By virtue of the storyline, everything he tells us has to be taken as inerrant until proven otherwise, because if it's not it's not Wisdom.

Futhermore, no ammount of ditziness allows for an extrasensory knowledge of the memories, personality, and emotions of a six year old boy.
But that still doesn't tell me why he didn't just kill her. She's not a fighter... she's really quite easy to get alone, actually... and she's 20 while Henry is 21... yet he still goes after Henry first, breaking/bending his own rules.
She was already injured. But she wasn't taken over at all in the beginning. (the broken/bandaged arm) Supposedly, she was badly enough hurt to go to the hospital... Meaning it was probably pretty damned serious. and if Walter was in her room killing her, we can assume she was in his world at the time. (she saw Wally, after all) ...maybe the corruption was that she's totally oblivious to everything going on around her? (that would make sense too, actually...) When she's with me, she pays absolutely no attention to the ghosts. (Cynthia had a lot of fun with her...)
20/21 are special cases, he wants them to be separated from the bonds of the flesh. I don't understand it too well, so you'll have to ask someone like Burning Man.
She was already injured. But she wasn't taken over at all in the beginning. (the broken/bandaged arm) Supposedly, she was badly enough hurt to go to the hospital... Meaning it was probably pretty damned serious. and if Walter was in her room killing her, we can assume she was in his world at the time. (she saw Wally, after all) ...maybe the corruption was that she's totally oblivious to everything going on around her? (that would make sense too, actually...) When she's with me, she pays absolutely no attention to the ghosts. (Cynthia had a lot of fun with her...)
"He's....coming in!"

The possession is there, but inactive, until Walter chooses to use Eileen for whatever obscure purpose.

Stay with me for a moment. From an early age, our environment affects us. The "newer", the more innocent, we are, the more it changes us, unless the environtment is equally "clean". Walter, for example, warped by his environment from a very early age. Eileen, we are led to believe, led a very happy, very innocent, very clean life. (Walter talks about when she was a kid, being happy, etc. And she seems pretty normal for a young twenty something girl. "...I hope things get better before the party..." She really doesn't have a whole lot of big worries or pain in her life, until she notices her next door neighbor is acting a LITTLE strange...) Then suddenly she's attacked, nearly killed, scarred for life and dumped into Walter's nightmare/paradise/whathaveyou. Quite a shake up. From living in quiet little Down Town Ashfeild, to Hell in a Cradle Basket.

Tell me that wouldn't affect you. [/quote]

You're comparing Eileen to a hypocondriac. Her possession is very real and she exhibits extrasensory perception as a result that no amount of stress would allow.
There comes a point in those games where you NEED to know to continue on the character's and antagonists' set path. In this game, you never really play outside the nightmare. What's real to Walter becomes important to you. You have to follow his rules to get out alive. You don't get the luxery of taking some time off from Otherworld. That's why I think Joseph was Walter's creation. (his ghost, not him) Because he never really says anything about what he found out about the Sullivan case except what Walter believes in. Usually, journalists are more "fact" or "science" oriented. Not "I found a sword that helps against the ghosts." He never goes on to say that he had a moment that he didn't think it was real. Most reporters and detectives I've heard of save the supernatural bit for last, if at all.
Except there's nothing in the ENTIRE game that makes us doubt any of this, and so Occam's Razor leads us to the simpler explanation: That everything as we witness it is as real as it's presented unless proven otherwise by more credible sources. If Joseph claims to be real, he's real until someone like Walter says otherwise.
Being in Walter's World did corrupt him, yes, but for someone who "wants to reveal the truth for tomorrow's generation," or some such silly slogan, he sure didn't tell us anything but what we needed to know to move forward one step at a time, considering he's the Giver of Wisdom, telling us how to destroy the very thing Walter wanted us to build. He seems intellegent... but he did when he was alive as well, didn't he? Only now, he seems very scatter brained... we could have used a lot of the info we got later when we were trying to save the first four victims, huh? And I found it interesting that you couldn't find the key next to your bed laying out in the open until Joseph decided to tell you about it.
Well, maybe he's being suppressed by Walter's influence, being of perfect mental clarity but being unable to properly communicate. (Think "Stuck In Neutral")
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by DarKerry »

...fine. You win. I give up. (yawn)

Somepeople take everything at face value, others don't.

For the millionth time and a half, I bow out, simply because I know that I'll never get anywhere where the door has been shut. People will always think what they choose to think, if only so they can say they did think.

It's funny... everyone here is so sure of their points on these games... but all they've ever argued to me is "go look up my points for me; yours can't possibly be possible." (Which is really all I've ever asked to have verified. Truth be told, I'm still waiting for and only for someone to prove me absolutely wrong.)

So very boring. "It says it, therefore it is." Poetry and art hardly ever come out and actually say anything. Except here.

P.S. : Think "Stuck In Neutral") Never heard of it. Unlike many people on these boards, I've lived a very.... harbored life... I have two guardians and they like to keep me on a short leash... so if that's any sort of horror movie, I'd have to sneak it into the house under my shirt...
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Post by AuraTwilight »

It's not that my mind is closed, but that my mind's just not going to consider something without a scrap of evidence no more than you'd consider the possibility that "Well, maybe the ghosts are evil aliens infiltrating the Otherworld as double-agents."
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by Squarehead »

It's just that the evidence that speaks for the "literal spirits" is rather questionable is all. Some old witch book and a batshit insane psycho serial killer who happens to believe in it. And a world that was created by that psycho/psychic. Hell, do we even know for sure if those notes ever existed in the real world to begin with?

Consider: besides Joseph, all the ghosts did was they attacked you. All behaved the same way. There's not much implication of a "soul" there, no individuality, at least nothing that was left of their human "selves". They don't differ much from the other monsters, except on some superficial level.

This whole debate is based on thin air, i.e. on (a fictional) religion, metaphysics of a fictional videogame universe and questions like "is it easier or more likely to corrupt a human soul, than to create a ghost from scratch, if you're a psychic? If a person can control matter and things in his own world as he likes, are there still some things outside his influence?" Nobody can answer that. It' a matter of faith.

Quite frankly i can't remember what we were debating about in the first place. :?
no more than you'd consider the possibility that "Well, maybe the ghosts are evil aliens infiltrating the Otherworld as double-agents."
That is not the same. It is quite clear that Walter can and does create monsters from scratch. And about "Occam's razor", the simplest explanation is not always true. Look at the horizon. Seems that the Earth is flat, doesn't it? The truthfulness of Walter's view of reality is also questionable.
I can't believe i earned 10 Silent Hill cash for this.
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