Walter's alleged suicide?

[AuraTwilight]

Granolabar, the Walter that said, "I did it, but it wasn't me", was the innocent side of Walter's personality that was split off over guilt of killing the Locane Children.

[carneeval]

Ok I just wanted to mention this, pertaining to some of the victims, wasn't there a belief that all the Sacraments were chosen at birth? (Please no one freak out on me if it's wrong XD) Henry says at one point that he felt drawn to South Ashfield Heights and it seems as if Walter calls the sacraments (What I mean by this is like when he calls Eileen to the last boss battle) to the place he wants to kill them. Cynthia to the subway (although she's not exactely a good example since she's a prostitute) Jasper goes to the Wish House (To meet 'the devil') and Andrew at the Water Prison
I think that counts for Henry wanting 302
So is it possible he killed children and some other people in question because of the belief that they were chosen at birth?

[11x20]

- They aren't chosen at birth. Walter picks them because he hates them or finds them appropriate for the Sacrament they are labeled.

- Henry may have been drawn to SAH because he was just one of those people sensitive to paranormal activity. Or he could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or better yet, the "Receiver of Wisdom" probably wasn't even chosen at all, it was just meant to be the very next person to live there right after Joseph. So if say... Heather Mason decided to move to SAH and picked Room 302, then it would have all happened to her.

- Cynthia was never explicitly said to be a prostitute. She was slutty and liked to party a lot, but she's probably not a prostitute. Just a party animal.

No worries on the "chosen at birth" idea though, I've heard much worse suggestions. XD

[AuraTwilight]

Granolabar has it right. As for Henry being "drawn" there, I figured he was being poetic. A sort of, "Oh, this place CALLS to me! I'll take it!"

[Jonipoon]

This kinda gives me inspiration....

A short story about Henry being dragged to SAH, meeting Sunderland and all that stuff.

[11x20]

^ I would read that. You should do it, Jonipoon.

[AuraTwilight]

Dude, you should do it! I've read your writing, and you could do it justice.

[Master_Sun]

Okay, it's been awhile since I've posted here, so bare with me if things are resurrected that were already argued (because I'm too lazy to reread everything).

I would like someone to explain to me why this explanation is wrong: Innocent Walter is treated as the 11th sacrament after committing suicide in prison because of the markings on his grave and feet, and his corpse still has a mark on his neck, which indicates nothing happened to him except he was unburied. The blood and oil were already offered before Walter kills himself because there's no memo or such that says otherwise that he wasn't there before and it's impractical to assume he set-up all that stuff in room 302 in a few hours after innocent Walter's death. The evil Walter offered the blood and oil because if innocent Walter had knowledge of this, he would know his suicide would be pointless. So, after innocent Walter kills himself, evil Walter gains the benefits of the assumption ceremony as well as the ghost of innocent Walter. This is why we see a humanoid-Walter running around with blood stains on his coat, and why you can "semi"-kill him (as in, put him down like a human more than the actual ghosts), and actually kill him at the end, but still become possessed at the end by an invisible force (assuming the one that possess Eileen, and not evil Walter's ghost). He is the same Walter that was split from innocent Walter, and the invisible force that possess Eileen is the ghost of innocent Walter.

What this explanation attempts to address is why Walter still has a mark on his neck in room 302 (if you assume he would re-unite with his other half and then kill himself), why he has markings on his feet and tombstone if a combined Walter was supposed to be the true 11th sacrament (which this explanation doesn't support), and why the man in the coat stalking Henry and Eileen is very different from the rest of the ghosts.

[AuraTwilight]

I would like someone to explain to me why this explanation is wrong: Innocent Walter is treated as the 11th sacrament after committing suicide in prison because of the markings on his grave and feet, and his corpse still has a mark on his neck, which indicates nothing happened to him except he was unburied.

This part's fine.

The blood and oil were already offered before Walter kills himself because there's no memo or such that says otherwise that he wasn't there before and it's impractical to assume he set-up all that stuff in room 302 in a few hours after innocent Walter's death.

It was canonically stated that the ritual was done in Room 302. It kinda had to. So...

The evil Walter offered the blood and oil because if innocent Walter had knowledge of this, he would know his suicide would be pointless. So, after innocent Walter kills himself, evil Walter gains the benefits of the assumption ceremony as well as the ghost of innocent Walter.

This falls apart due to the above.

This is why we see a humanoid-Walter running around with blood stains on his coat, and why you can "semi"-kill him (as in, put him down like a human more than the actual ghosts), and actually kill him at the end, but still become possessed at the end by an invisible force (assuming the one that possess Eileen, and not evil Walter's ghost). He is the same Walter that was split from innocent Walter, and the invisible force that possess Eileen is the ghost of innocent Walter.

The force possessing Eileen is Young Walter, whom is not synonymous to Evil Walter. Walter seems to have merged back together, then split again.

What this explanation attempts to address is why Walter still has a mark on his neck in room 302 (if you assume he would re-unite with his other half and then kill himself), why he has markings on his feet and tombstone if a combined Walter was supposed to be the true 11th sacrament (which this explanation doesn't support), and why the man in the coat stalking Henry and Eileen is very different from the rest of the ghosts.

Why would reuniting his bodies erase the death marks or change his Sacrament status? The Man in the Coat is different from the rest of the ghosts because he's the King and this is his Kingdom.

[The Adversary]

>I would like someone to explain to me why this explanation is wrong:
Walter has to offer the blood of ten sinners and the chrism oil as part of the ritual. He cannot have these things in prison.

[Master_Sun]

All of your responses lead me to believe none of you didn't bother reading or interpreting what I'm suggesting...

First off, I never said he brought the items of the ritual into prison. I said that possibly the other Walter, that was not arrested, offered the blood and the oil, while the innocent Walter was about to be or was incarcerated. This is because the other Walter that was not arrested was able to figure what happened, or had some sort of control over innocent Walter's fate, as in Valtiel might have influenced his guilt or simply knew he was in a state of guilt to the point of committing suicide, or knew the that the red devil/ monster/ the other me would "try to kill me".

Secondly, no where is it stated, that I remember, that the ritual was or had to be performed in room 302. Perhaps certain victims or people in memos stated it, but it could simply refer to the offering of the blood and oil. That could just be seen as the ritual itself while the 11th sacrament was interpreted as part of the three signs, or the ritual in its entirety. Why would people assume he killed himself in room 302 when everyone knows he died in prison? Unless they were referring to simply the offering of the blood and oil.

>The force possessing Eileen is Young Walter, whom is not synonymous to Evil Walter.
You really have no clue if this is true or not..

>Why would reuniting his bodies erase the death marks or change his Sacrament status?
Because: if we assume the reunification is anything similar to, per se, the two Alessas at the end of Silent Hill one, then anything prior marks or physical features that existed on the two halves would disappear, as they are not the true features of the true person.

If we assume Walter split himself in half, then we have to assume it is necessary that both halves commit suicide to complete the 11th sacrament. And as I mentioned before, they couldn't have had reunited themselves then committed suicide because the corpse is exactly the same as the person that died in prison; with the same neck wound. How is it physically possible to stay alive with a neck wound? Why would a neck wound stay there over a regular, uninjured neck out of result of re-merging? It makes no sense and is an irrational conclusion to assume that a process is so random. Also, why would only one half of the 11th sacrament be marked as the 11th victim on his tombstone? There's no reason for this, unless he really was, truly the 11th sacrament and the other Walter was really irrelevant to the ritual (as in, he never had to kill himself and didn't, as shown in the game).

>[...]he's the King and this is his Kingdom.
Then he should take an entirely different form that was efficient in doing his job.

[AuraTwilight]

First off, I never said he brought the items of the ritual into prison. I said that possibly the other Walter, that was not arrested, offered the blood and the oil, while the innocent Walter was about to be or was incarcerated. This is because the other Walter that was not arrested was able to figure what happened, or had some sort of control over innocent Walter's fate, as in Valtiel might have influenced his guilt or simply knew he was in a state of guilt to the point of committing suicide, or knew the that the red devil/ monster/ the other me would "try to kill me".

I see no reason why one Walter performing the ritual would effect the other; they're two different people at this period, and so they shouldn't benefit from the other's actions unless they're explicitly present.

Secondly, no where is it stated, that I remember, that the ritual was or had to be performed in room 302. Perhaps certain victims or people in memos stated it, but it could simply refer to the offering of the blood and oil. That could just be seen as the ritual itself while the 11th sacrament was interpreted as part of the three signs, or the ritual in its entirety. Why would people assume he killed himself in room 302 when everyone knows he died in prison? Unless they were referring to simply the offering of the blood and oil.

Seeing as how the supplies and whatnot were IN Room 302...

>The force possessing Eileen is Young Walter, whom is not synonymous to Evil Walter.
You really have no clue if this is true or not..

Yea, I do. Young Walter and Evil Walter are two separate beings who are running around as two different people. Eileen is possessed by childhood memories and emotions and a desire for Mommy. Which of the two does this describe?

>Why would reuniting his bodies erase the death marks or change his Sacrament status?
Because: if we assume the reunification is anything similar to, per se, the two Alessas at the end of Silent Hill one, then anything prior marks or physical features that existed on the two halves would disappear, as they are not the true features of the true person.

Even though we already have precedent for NOT THINKING the split/reunification is similar; one of the Walters created during the split wasn't a goddamned baby.

If we assume Walter split himself in half, then we have to assume it is necessary that both halves commit suicide to complete the 11th sacrament. And as I mentioned before, they couldn't have had reunited themselves then committed suicide because the corpse is exactly the same as the person that died in prison; with the same neck wound. How is it physically possible to stay alive with a neck wound? Why would a neck wound stay there over a regular, uninjured neck out of result of re-merging? It makes no sense and is an irrational conclusion to assume that a process is so random. Also, why would only one half of the 11th sacrament be marked as the 11th victim on his tombstone? There's no reason for this, unless he really was, truly the 11th sacrament and the other Walter was really irrelevant to the ritual (as in, he never had to kill himself and didn't, as shown in the game).

It is very simple. Good Walter commits suicide. He is dug up by Evil Walter. He is carried to Room 302 where the ritual is performed. Evil Walter either ceases to bodily exist, since he already "killed" himself, or he replicates the same suicide in private and their corpses merge, their spirits merging regardless.

I don't see why you keep making a big fucking deal about this.

>[...]he's the King and this is his Kingdom.
Then he should take an entirely different form that was efficient in doing his job.

What the fuck is more efficient than an immortal, inhuman killing machine that's armed to the teeth?

[Master_Sun]

>[...]why one Walter performing the ritual would effect the other; they're two different people[...]

Use your imagination. You should know that this does not matter; look at Alessa and Cheryl. There's an infinite amount of reasons/ explanations to why he would benefit from innocent Walter's suicide. I can't even begin to list appropriately.

>Seeing as how the supplies and whatnot were IN Room 302...
...And as to how Walter died in prison, with the corpse in room 302 having the neck wound.

>Which of the two does this describe?
Innocent Walter. As it hints in Silent Hill three, people who are killed in certain ways "lose" their humanity, sanity, rationality, etc. It could also be that there are different "invisible forces" because the one that possess Henry at the end appear to be very apathetic and willingly suicidal. Now, what kind of kid even comprehends suicide? Also, the possession of Henry happens after both Walters die.

>Even though we already have precedent for NOT THINKING the split/reunification is similar[...]

Well, okay; I guess there's still the whole idea of corpses re-uniting that seems simply ridiculous. Why does innocent Walter's corpse's bodily damages take presidency over the murderous Walter's? The only reason I would see anyone say that innocent Walter's corpse was there is because he was the true Walter, or at least his true body.

[quote]If we assume Walter split himself in half, then we have to assume it is necessary that both halves commit suicide to complete the 11th sacrament. And as I mentioned before, they couldn't have had reunited themselves then committed suicide because the corpse is exactly the same as the person that died in prison; with the same neck wound. How is it physically possible to stay alive with a neck wound? Why would a neck wound stay there over a regular, uninjured neck out of result of re-merging? It makes no sense and is an irrational conclusion to assume that a process is so random. Also, why would only one half of the 11th sacrament be marked as the 11th victim on his tombstone? There's no reason for this, unless he really was, truly the 11th sacrament and the other Walter was really irrelevant to the ritual (as in, he never had to kill himself and didn't, as shown in the game).
[/quote]

>I don't see why you keep making a big fucking deal about this.

Because: Innocent Walter's tomb was marked; the corpse in room 302 has the exact injuries as described in the newspaper in Silent Hill 2; to assume the murderous Walter committed the same kind of suicide is silly; corpses vanishing into thin is air makes no sense if we assume the murderous Walter was as much of a person as innocent Walter was or if he wasn't then his suicide shouldn't matter or if it did, it would be pointless and stupid, because an identical form replaces it, which would presumably be the murderous man in the coat stalking Henry in the game.

>What the fuck is more efficient than an immortal, inhuman killing machine that's armed[...]
An omniscient ghost that can possess you.

[Harrys_Girl]

>I would like someone to explain to me why this explanation is wrong:
Walter has to offer the blood of ten sinners and the chrism oil as part of the ritual. He cannot have these things in prison.

I would think blood of ten sinner would be pretty damn easy to find in a prision. Be the first place I'd look to tell the truth. As for the oil, eh, you'd be amazed what inmates can get in.

[AuraTwilight]

>[...]why one Walter performing the ritual would effect the other; they're two different people[...]

Use your imagination. You should know that this does not matter; look at Alessa and Cheryl. There's an infinite amount of reasons/ explanations to why he would benefit from innocent Walter's suicide. I can't even begin to list appropriately.

As I stated before, the two probably can't be perfectly compared. They split in different ways, for different reasons, with different causes.

>Seeing as how the supplies and whatnot were IN Room 302...
...And as to how Walter died in prison, with the corpse in room 302 having the neck wound.

They're spread out on the altar, dude. Obvious Implication is Obvious, unless you're accusing this of being a case of bad writing.

>Which of the two does this describe?
Innocent Walter. As it hints in Silent Hill three, people who are killed in certain ways "lose" their humanity, sanity, rationality, etc. It could also be that there are different "invisible forces" because the one that possess Henry at the end appear to be very apathetic and willingly suicidal. Now, what kind of kid even comprehends suicide? Also, the possession of Henry happens after both Walters die.

I would call it Young Walter, to differentiate the two. Anyway, Henry was most likely possessed by the hauntings of the Room, or something, instead of a manifestation of Walter.

Well, okay; I guess there's still the whole idea of corpses re-uniting that seems simply ridiculous. Why does innocent Walter's corpse's bodily damages take presidency over the murderous Walter's? The only reason I would see anyone say that innocent Walter's corpse was there is because he was the true Walter, or at least his true body.

I don't see why it's ridiculous. I would imagine reality doesn't like blatantly magic stuff that should be in the Otherworld lumbering about here in the physical universe. If both bodies are dead, who's to say physics doesn't assert itself and force these half-bodies back together? If this happens, Innocent Walter's body would take precedent for being the Sacrament; easy.

Because: Innocent Walter's tomb was marked; the corpse in room 302 has the exact injuries as described in the newspaper in Silent Hill 2; to assume the murderous Walter committed the same kind of suicide is silly; corpses vanishing into thin is air makes no sense if we assume the murderous Walter was as much of a person as innocent Walter was or if he wasn't then his suicide shouldn't matter or if it did, it would be pointless and stupid, because an identical form replaces it, which would presumably be the murderous man in the coat stalking Henry in the game.

So basically, "Because: It's dumb and I don't like it, bleh."

An omniscient ghost that can possess you.

Can you comprehend omniscience? Can you really, truly comprehend it? I don't imagine Walter can become something his mind can't properly imagine, not to mention that his belief system doesn't allow for ghosts to be omniscient, it seems. That, and there's the whole thing about killing the Sacraments through fairly mundane means that seems to be a requirement, what with the bloodying of his hands and all.