Walter's alleged suicide?

[Master_Sun]

Can anyone give a good explanation to how Walter could die and then perform the assumption later on? (You have to be alive for the assumption because the whole point is to be the 11th Sacrament!)

Also, how does his supposed admittance of guilt in the newspaper influence things? Did he kill himself out of guilt or as part of the ritual?

Thanks (this is my second post and question).

[Jonipoon]

As a child, Walter was believed to be the "second alternative" by the cult members if Alessa's ritual failed. To "secure the future", members George Rosten and Jimmy Stone snucked the angel Valitel into Walter's subconscious when he was a child. Walter was then split into two beings, the innocent and the guilty. The innocent Walter was arrested for the murders the guilty Walter committed, and was imprisoned (this is also the same Walter that the players reads about in the memo from SH2, that committs suicide).

However, the merge with Valitel gave Walter the ability to resurrect himself after his innocent self committed suicide. Which means guilty Walter could merge into one again in order to perform the Ritual of the Holy Assumption.

I hope that answers your question.

[Mis Krist.]

Because killing himself was part of that ritual. In the game itself it explains to you the ritual and what to do.

I'm not sure if Walter's body was split so much as his mind/consciousness, yes? The innocent and guilty Walter inhabited the same body, killed himself, then Walter's guilty 'half' (being the half we see running around in the game) took his own corpse and propped it up in Room 302--that's how I always understood it. This resurrected Walter was a spirit but not like how westerners think of ghosts or ghouls.

[AuraTwilight]

The ritual, which marks him as the 11th Sacrament, allows him to be freed from the bonds of the flesh.

Basically a ghost, but different. I'm not really sure if Walter's consciousness was split, though. It seems sort of silly, flimsy, and redundant for him to split, remerge, then split during the Eileen incident.

[Master_Sun]

To "secure the future", members George Rosten and Jimmy Stone snucked the angel Valitel into Walter's subconscious when he was a child.

Wait, is this something that was really stated somewhere or is this something you came up to believe?

As for the split idea. . .

I'm very confused by it for several reasons. How could he split himself? And what indication of this is there that he did this? Actually, I remember one time I looked at dead Walter's neck in room 302, and I believe I saw a mark (which I was sure indicated the spoon jab). So doesn't this mean he couldn't have resurrected himself?

Because killing himself was part of that ritual. In the game itself it explains to you the ritual and what to do.

So you think his suicide in prison was an act of continuing the ritual?

I'm not sure if Walter's body was split so much as his mind/consciousness, yes?

You're suggesting multiple personality disorder?

The ritual, which marks him as the 11th Sacrament, allows him to be freed from the bonds of the flesh.

Are you saying as the conjurer, he's bounded to mortal grounds? Or are you suggesting that he already offered the blood of the ten sinners and the white oil somewhere else (which would most likely have to be room 302 because it was stated)?

It seems sort of silly, flimsy, and redundant for him to split, remerge, then split during the Eileen incident.

I think I agree. . . That's another reason why I'm confused by Jonipoon's idea, although I'm not trying to belittle or dismiss it (hopefully he'll enlighten me on the matter).

This makes me think though--is there any indication of Walter visiting room 302 before his suicide? I mean, it would have to be the case if he wanted to have some privacy for "processing" his victims organs and the ceremonial oil? From what I remember, I don't think there was an indication of this, so that's another reason why I want to better understand this split explanation.

[AuraTwilight]

Wait, is this something that was really stated somewhere or is this something you came up to believe?

It's true; some form of Valtiel was snuck into Walter's consciousness. The presence of Valtiel is what made the killing of the Sacraments valid.

As for the split idea. . .

I'm very confused by it for several reasons. How could he split himself? And what indication of this is there that he did this? Actually, I remember one time I looked at dead Walter's neck in room 302, and I believe I saw a mark (which I was sure indicated the spoon jab). So doesn't this mean he couldn't have resurrected himself?

Well, if he did split himself, I would assume he did so the same way Alessa did. Walter did go through his own Trial of the Abyss, after all.

No one's saying he bodily resurrected himself; he freed himself from his body.

So you think his suicide in prison was an act of continuing the ritual?

We know it was. Walter is the 11th Sacrament.

Are you saying as the conjurer, he's bounded to mortal grounds? Or are you suggesting that he already offered the blood of the ten sinners and the white oil somewhere else (which would most likely have to be room 302 because it was stated)?

I mean that he came back as a ghost, and either carried out the ritual beforehand or afterwards as a spirit. Probably afterwards. If so, then the ritual is what allowed him to create his own Kingdom.

This makes me think though--is there any indication of Walter visiting room 302 before his suicide? I mean, it would have to be the case if he wanted to have some privacy for "processing" his victims organs and the ceremonial oil? From what I remember, I don't think there was an indication of this, so that's another reason why I want to better understand this split explanation.

Well yea, he attempted to visit the room throughout his whole life.

[Master_Sun]

Wow--I never knew Valtiel had anything to do with this game. Thanks for the interesting facts. Where do you find this in the game?

Well, if he did split himself, I would assume he did so the same way Alessa did. Walter did go through his own Trial of the Abyss, after all.

Wha. . . ?

But we don't know if Walter's suicide in prison was part of the ritual because people saw him enter room 302 after his alleged suicide, and Joseph and Henry said he performed the Holy Assumption in room 302. So I think this creates enough reason to doubt that his suicide was necessarily part of the ritual or out of guilt. You have to be alive to carry out the ritual. . . otherwise there would be no point of releasing thyself from the bonds on flesh, right? As that's the stated reason for doing it, besides being the 11th victim.

As for the last paragraph, I meant more towards the time of his first ten murders, where he might have probably stashed some of equipment or hearts.

[AuraTwilight]

Wow--I never knew Valtiel had anything to do with this game. Thanks for the interesting facts. Where do you find this in the game?

It's mentioned in some official plot guide or something that was only released in Japan. I know, it sucks.

But we don't know if Walter's suicide in prison was part of the ritual because people saw him enter room 302 after his alleged suicide, and Joseph and Henry said he performed the Holy Assumption in room 302.

It was ultimately part of the ritual; he's a Sacrament.

You have to be alive to carry out the ritual. . . otherwise there would be no point of releasing thyself from the bonds on flesh, right?

Well, that and making his own Kingdom.

[The Adversary]

>It's mentioned in some official plot guide or something that was only released in Japan.
The official and now defunct Silent Hill 4: The Room Web site, in the Victim Profiles, includes the information.

>we don't know if Walter's suicide in prison was part of the ritual
We do. It wasn't. Walter's suicide was done out of guilt, after being split in 2—"innocent" and "guilty." The "innocent" Walter was arrested for murdering Billy & Miriam Locane, after which he severed his carotid artery w/ a spoon. The "guilty" Walter proceeded to steal his other half's corpse—from the graveyard behind Wish House—lugged it to room 302, and then completed the ritual of the Holy Liberation/Assumption.

His death in room 302's storeroom, therefore, was part of the ritual. There's a difference.

By the way, to whoever said it: Walter is not, and was never, the Order's "back-up" plan. He was raised simultaneously as Alessa, by a different sect (the sect of the Holy Mother), and was to be used in conjunction w/ Alessa, to birth god today. Dahlia, however, was a dumb-dumb and elected to attempt god's descent on her own—she failed—effectively fucking up everything the sect of the Holy Mother had planned w/ Walter.

[Mis Krist.]

>Basically a ghost, but different. I'm not really sure if Walter's consciousness was split, though. It seems sort of silly, flimsy, and redundant for him to split, remerge, then split during the Eileen incident.

Touche! Though I was always operating under the impression that what Walter did really wasn't all that stable of a thing in the first place. Still, to each their own.

>was to be used in conjunction w/ Alessa

Word. This helps makes sense of the note that mentions Walter's progress and asks if they've found Alessa yet. Does that also make sense of Dahlia's line at the final flashback scene of SH1? "Herein lies the mother's womb [...] I could have done it all by myself!"?

[Mephisto]

That's interesting, good aswer guys I didn't knew that Walter's action involved Valtiel in any way either, I did knew that Jimmy Stone and George Rosten had a sect that did sacrifices and all in Valtiel's name but that's about it. Thanks

[Master_Sun]

I'm wow'd again. . . What an awesome theory. I never knew there were divisions of the Order though. However, I don't think Dahlia's comment was referring to Walter (even though it would make Heavenly sense) since there originally wasn't an intention for there to be (a) sequel(s), according to some video of the staff interview (of the time of the game's release I believe).

AuraTwilight, you never explained the Abyss comment. I would like to understand your reasoning behind it as to understand how Walter could have divided himself mortally without powers.

Walter's suicide was done out of guilt, after being split in 2—"innocent" and "guilty." The "innocent" Walter was arrested for murdering Billy & Miriam Locane, after which he severed his carotid artery w/ a spoon. The "guilty" Walter proceeded to steal his other half's corpse—from the graveyard behind Wish House—lugged it to room 302, and then completed the ritual of the Holy Liberation/Assumption.

Two questions: What would happen to "guilty" Walter's corpse? How would Walter have divided himself in the first place? Other than that, this seems like another well thought out idea.

[Mis Krist.]

I didn't say Dahlia's comment was referring to Walter specifically. I meant that it referred to the idea that, originally, a mother and a father of God was necessary. Unless this phrase of Dahlia's is totally different in Japanese, I don't know of much that contradicts it to the point of out-right refuting it.

And this alleged lack of intention for sequels =/= a lack of Order lore planned out by the developers.

[AuraTwilight]

AuraTwilight, you never explained the Abyss comment. I would like to understand your reasoning behind it as to understand how Walter could have divided himself mortally without powers.

You can find Walter's tombstone along with Eddie's, Angela's, and James' open grave. Like the three of them, Walter had a trial of the Abyss, and faced his own demons in Silent Hill. This could have resulted in his being split. Regardless, I personally believe Walter has psychic powers, so there y'go.

Two questions: What would happen to "guilty" Walter's corpse? How would Walter have divided himself in the first place? Other than that, this seems like another well thought out idea.

The idea goes that the Trial of the Abyss split Walter into his innocent and guilty halves, since he felt guilty over the death of the Locane children, who didn't spurn him unlike his other targets. Innocent self turns himself in and commits suicide, guilty self claims the corpse and does the ritual. Apparently their bodies and souls merge back together, and Walter's spirit is freed from his flesh. Begin the rest of the Sacraments.

[Master_Sun]

Interesting--the Catacombs idea. Do you think Walter's situation could be similar to Mary and Maria? "Born from a wish" per se?

I'm still not really sure about your idea of what would happen to "guilty" Walter's body. . . I mean, it just seems silly imagining a corpse being pulled into and assimilated into another corpse propped on a slab of pipes. I don't know. I'm hoping MMY, or someone else would elaborate on this--has something similar occurred in the other games?

[AuraTwilight]

Interesting--the Catacombs idea. Do you think Walter's situation could be similar to Mary and Maria? "Born from a wish" per se?

It'd be more like Alessa and Cheryl; Mary and Maria weren't two parts of the same soul.

I'm still not really sure about your idea of what would happen to "guilty" Walter's body. . . I mean, it just seems silly imagining a corpse being pulled into and assimilated into another corpse propped on a slab of pipes. I don't know. I'm hoping MMY, or someone else would elaborate on this--has something similar occurred in the other games?

Again, Cheryl and Alessa.

[The Adversary]

>I would like to understand your reasoning behind it
His reasoning is mine.

>What would happen to "guilty" Walter's corpse?
"Guilty" Walter doesn't have a corpse until after he exhumes "innocent" Walter from behind Wish House, drags it—and the supplies—to room 302, in which he "is released from the bonds of the flesh." From there, his 2 selves are reunited: one corpse remains.

>to understand how Walter could have divided himself mortally without powers.
In the original script—before a massive overhaul—of Silent Hill 2, not only did Mary have her "other side," Maria, so too did James: Joseph Barkin. Additionally, the writer of this original story was the writer for Silent Hill 4: The Room.

Ultimately, the division isn't a conscious choice—rather, it just happens.

[Master_Sun]

I'm still not 100% sure at what you mean. Do you mean he simply offers the blood and oil and is automatically liberated since "innocent" Walter is dead and then for some reason is able to unite with "innocent" Walter's lost soul/ consciousness? Or, that "guilty" Walter kills himself and. . . I don't know, fuses corpses or it just vanishes or is revived or something. . ?

Otherwise, everything else makes sense and is well thought out.

@AuraTwilight: It's not like Alessa and Cheryl at all, because they were actually alive and they didn't even merge, they just became Incubator.

[JadThomas]

It's not like Alessa and Cheryl at all, because they were actually alive and they didn't even merge, they just became Incubator.

Well it is more like Alessa and Cheryl, than what you suggest with Mary and Maria. Maria is not an reincarnation of Mary, but a idealization of Mary created by James, whereas Cheryl is a reincarnation of Alessa which when compared to the case of Walter Sullivan's two literal very physically existant halves is a more similar split to Alessa's splitting herself to create Cheryl, than James creating a character.
So yes, it is like Alessa and Cheryl and no it isn't like Maria and Mary.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm still not 100% sure at what you mean. Do you mean he simply offers the blood and oil and is automatically liberated since "innocent" Walter is dead and then for some reason is able to unite with "innocent" Walter's lost soul/ consciousness? Or, that "guilty" Walter kills himself and. . . I don't know, fuses corpses or it just vanishes or is revived or something. . ?

Otherwise, everything else makes sense and is well thought out.

I guess innocent Walter's corpse was left on the stake, and guilty Walter just dematerialized, since he's neither living nor dead. Innocent Walter's consciousness might have been reabsorbed, or it just "died."

It's not like Alessa and Cheryl at all, because they were actually alive and they didn't even merge, they just became Incubator.

So? Walter was alive before he killed himself and he split then, and when the two merged they became the Conjurer. It's not a perfect comparison, but it's the best one you can ever make.