Walter's alleged suicide?

Henry's locked in his apartment and can't get out. Bless.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Post by The Adversary »

>Evidently you didn't even bother to see what was already discussed. . .
No, I did. AuraTwilight wrote on the previous page, "Good Walter kills himself and becomes the 11th Sacrament." This is impossible b/c becoming the 11th sacrament is a part of the ritual of the Holy Liberation. He cannot perform the ritual in prison b/c he requires ten hearts.

So, no, I'm not putting words into yr mouth. Y're doing that on yr own.

I've already explained what happened: "Innocent" Walter commits suicide in prison and is buried buried Wish House. "Guilty" Walter kills Gregory and Walsh in Ashfield. "Guilty" Walter disinters "innocent" Walter's corpse and takes it to room #302. "Innocent" Walter's body is strung up and embalmed, in a way, and "guilty" Walter performs the ritual of the Holy Liberation/Assumption. "Guilty" Walter disappears, leaving "innocent" Walter's body in the storeroom, and Walter's consciousness enters his kingdom. From there, he begins the 2nd and 3rd Signs.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
Loveless_Dogg
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 3526
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Location: Waco, Texas
Contact:

Post by Loveless_Dogg »

And thus he is released from the bonds of the flesh and so on and so forth.

Me thinks that there still be a bit of confusion as to what exactly the ceremony is that Walter performs. I don't know, I think it was pretty clear in-game. :)
Value your failures more than your successes. Successes only last until someone screws them up. Failures are forever. She left...and...I'm lost.
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

MMY wrote:He cannot perform the ritual in prison b/c he requires ten hearts.
The theory is already considering that the blood & oil were offered, so why would this be a problem? Unless you think that for some reason the conjurer has to "release" himself in the same area he offered the blood 'n oil.
MMY wrote:I've already explained what happened: "Innocent" Walter commits suicide in prison and is buried buried Wish House. "Guilty" Walter kills Gregory and Walsh in Ashfield. "Guilty" Walter disinters "innocent" Walter's corpse and takes it to room #302. "Innocent" Walter's body is strung up and embalmed, in a way, and "guilty" Walter performs the ritual of the Holy Liberation/Assumption. "Guilty" Walter disappears, leaving "innocent" Walter's body in the storeroom, and Walter's consciousness enters his kingdom. From there, he begins the 2nd and 3rd Signs.
You didn't mention the bolded. Also, this was already brought up, and was the main reason this thread still continues to be active, cuz', to me, the idea that he just "vanishes" seems like a cop-out.
User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Post by The Adversary »

>so why would this be a problem?
It's an unnecessary inclusion and complication: Suicide is not the same as being "released from the bonds of the flesh," and as such Walter becoming the 11th sacrament at the time of his suicide in prison is impossible.

>the idea that he just "vanishes" seems like a cop-out.
The body is "released from the bonds of the flesh," and became the "spirit" Walter seen in his kingdom, the one who killed victims 12 - 19.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

Okay: how does not being "released from the bonds of flesh," and becoming the 11th sacrament not the same as being killed? The spirit leaves the body, which is yourself being "released" from the "bonds of flesh". Is it not? And if you're not "killing" yourself, how is it that Walter is victim 11 then? Is a victim not someone that has been put to death?
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

Innocent Walter's ritual wasn't part of the ritual though. No rites, no number-carving, etc. It doesn't count.

Hey MMY, this is a bit tangential, but my curiousity asks: What do you believe becomes of Innocent Walter's consciousness? Does it vanish and/or go to the normal afterlife, whatever that may be, and removed from events, does it merge back with Guilty Walter when the Holy Assumption is performed, or does he simply rise again as Child Walter?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

Everyone else has to be killed to be considered a sacrament, so this logically should apply to Walter to be considered an 11th sacrament..
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

Yea, and he is killed, his body stops being alive.

Besides, your logic is faulty, since the 11th Sacrament isn't like the others whatsoever.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

So, what logic is there behind someone being able to all of a sudden re-materialize themselves into something that's apparently dead, but not. . ? I mean, it seems extremely redundent to "re-materialize" yourself into something that is basically the same thing as you were before..
Last edited by Master_Sun on 16 May 2009, edited 1 time in total.
Loveless_Dogg
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 3526
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Location: Waco, Texas
Contact:

Post by Loveless_Dogg »

The police report never mentions any markings of any kind on the body of Walter. Those markings on his grave and feet labeling him, would have been made after death. I don't think the suicide in the Jail would have made him into the 11th Sacrament.

The ceremony did....I think..*ponders*
Value your failures more than your successes. Successes only last until someone screws them up. Failures are forever. She left...and...I'm lost.
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

Oh yea, I completely forgot about that. If he wasn't the sacrament, why would have those numbers carved on his feat?
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

He was the Sacrament, he was just marked as such at the Holy Assumption, not at his suicide in prison.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

But the marks would have occurred before the other Walter would have finished the assumption..
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

Says who? There were no numbers on Innocent Walter when he killed himself.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

It logically would have happened when the other Walter dug him out, AuraTwilight.. There's no reason to assume that he dragged the corpse to room 302, killed himself, then marked innocent Walter's corpse 'n grave, or marked his grave, then killed himself, then marked innocent Walter. It would have been pointless moving around.
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

No one said that's what happened. What happened was that Innocent Walter split himself, Guilty Walter dug him up and took him to Room 302, marked Innocent Walter's body, then he finished the ritual. You really need to stop adding information from your strenuous connections like they're facts.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

Okay, since you admit that he did mark innocent Walter's corpse instead of himself, then you should agree with me that innocent Walter was victim 11 then, since there would be no reason to mark someone else as the 11th when they weren't the 11th sacrament.
User avatar
AuraTwilight
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 11390
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: I'm here, and waiting for you
Contact:

Post by AuraTwilight »

Yes, Walter is Sacrament 11, no one's contesting that. What's being contested is that he wasn't the Sacrament because of his suicide.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
User avatar
Master_Sun
Just Passing Through
Posts: 93
Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Post by Master_Sun »

Like I said, since you acknowledge that the other Walter was the one who marked "innocent" Walter as the 11th sacrament, then you should agree with me that "innocent" Walter's death was considered part of the ritual. Why? Because you would come to the rationality that there would be no reason to have marked "innocent" Walter if he wasn't the sacrament. Additionally, there would be no reason to mark his grave, as a symbol of how the "innocent" Walter died.
Loveless_Dogg
Historical Society Historian
Posts: 3526
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Location: Waco, Texas
Contact:

Post by Loveless_Dogg »

I sort of get what you're saying but I don't think it's really that complicated of a matter.

I would say that "Innocent" Walter's suicide, was just convenient for "Guilty" Walter. He didn't need to track down and kill him with his own hands. All he did was dig up the body and move it to Room 302's back room to finish the ritual fully making him the 11th sacrament. I would think that being a sacrament doesn't automatically make you a victim of murder.

I'm willing to bet that the original list to be used for the Holy Mother's Decent was mostly made up of those that were willing and faithful to the Order's cause. Much like Claudia and her umm..."disciples" aka Missionary/Scrapers or whatever..
Value your failures more than your successes. Successes only last until someone screws them up. Failures are forever. She left...and...I'm lost.
Post Reply