Walter's alleged suicide?

[AuraTwilight]

Master Sun, you're overcomplicating this. All that's been said is that Innocent Walter was not a Sacrament at the time of, or because of, his suicide. He died, was dug up, and his body was marked. With that, Walter (both his halves as a whole) were marked as the 11th Sacrament.

[Master_Sun]

And I think you're oversimplifying this by just saying the other Walter simply "vanished".

[AuraTwilight]

Well, he did, whether you think it's too simple or not. Get the hell over it.

[Master_Sun]

Alright, Aura. You're comment of "Cuz' I said so" was very moving. Oh, and I appreciate your hypocrisy on the manner of coercion and crying.

[11x20]

Well, you guys, come on now. Let's all just have an espresso and talk this over.

Now what I got out of the game was this.
1. Walter has Valtiel implanted in his psyche which makes the 10 people he kills valid for the Ten Hearts ritual (after all, it seems Valtiel is the killer here, and Walter just a tool to the Stone and Rosten). After the tenth killing, I was told by MMY/Mockingbird/the-artist-formerly-known-as- that Valtiel actually leaves Walter's pscyhe at that point. I'm not entirely sure whether Valtiel does leave or not, since MMY never got back to me when I asked where this is said or implied in the series or supplemental material (this was ages ago though, I'm surprised I even remember).

2. So without Valtiel, we have Walter-- poor bastard who just killed 10 people because Stone/Rosten by proxy made him do it (by putting Valtiel in him). Whether Valtiel is really gone or not, I'm not sure. I've always kinda thought Valtiel was still in him and making him carry out the rest of the ritual.

------because of 2) If Valtiel is really the one making Walter do the evil things (fueled of course by his own resentment toward the world and cult upbringing) then I think we're all a little wrong in saying there is an "Innocent Walter" and "Guilty Walter". There is, by this hypothesis, only Walter and Valtiel-driven Walter who continues the killings. With Walter's desire to return to his Mother in some warped way and his childhood obsession with the Ritual of the 21 Sacraments, it was easy for Valtiel to control him.

------but if Valtiel does take off after 2) then once Valtiel leaves, and we get Walter who is probably pretty confused and upset about what's going on. Actions he committed that he might not have even wanted. He does have some guilt about it as seen by the two children killings (Miriam and Billy), so there is a sliver of that "good walter" somewhere in there. But there is probably also the Walter that is evil, and hateful of the world and probably feels he did a good thing by going through with the ritual.

So the "Good Walter"'s suicide probably would be convenient to continue the ritual as the 11th Sacrament (somewhere in the Ritual they say that the Conjurer --Walter-- must separate himself from the flesh, if I remember correctly). Either way, I'm pretty sure the Conjurer is meant to commit ritualistic suicide when lucky number 11 rolls along so they can have supernatural powers in the afterlife (thus creating Walter's Kingdom that Henry and the other Sacraments are attacked in).

So is there an "Evil Walter"? I'm not 100% sure, it could just be Valtiel. He might have even stuck around after Walter killed #10 to make Walter's suicide (#11) work out for the ritual too.

Either way, after Walter died, the guards did not find any numbers carved on his feet and buried him in the forest cemetery in Silent Hill. This is where I believe that either Walter's ghost (with Valtiel or not) came in and carved the 11121, dragged Walter to Room 302 (if it was Valtiel doing this in Walter's ghost-form then it's likely that Valtiel knew how attached to 302 Walter was, after all he spent a few years in his psyche if Rosten/Stone put Valtiel there when he was 18, just before he left Wish House). There, the ghost Walter performed the Assumption ritual and validated Walter's death as Sacrament 11.

I'm not trying to step on any toes here, this is just what I've gathered. I'm still a bit iffy on the Valtiel thing and the degree of it's involvement. I really would have liked Mockingbird/MMY/the-artist-formerly-known-as- to get back to me with some citations/sources that can cement whether Valtiel did, in fact leave after Walter finished either #10 or #11, or if the "Evil Walter" we see talking to Child Walter is the real, hateful, resentful Walter that just seeks an end, regardless of who he takes down with him.

I would also guess that a "split" in Walter's psyche didn't really occur until we start seeing Child Walter. The Walter who committed suicide and the Child Walter are probably one in the same, and the "Evil Walter" might really be the one inseparable from Valtiel.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to pick up my thoughts. I think I derailed and lost myself after point #2's split in theories. .___.

[AuraTwilight]

Valtiel isn't controlling Walter or making him kill people, though. From what I understand it, he's only there so that Walter's killings "count" as divine Sacraments instead of random killings.

[11x20]

Hmm, yeah you do have a point, Valtiel has never been shown to be violent (except when he went at Claudia like a spidermonkey). I've always kind of had the impression that either

1. Walter was very good at "blending in" with the rest of the world (people who knew him said he didn't seem like the type to kill kids, his former boss at the sports store described him as a very kind and hardworking employee, nothing out of the ordinary) but secretly hid his urges to kill everyone (which is quite likely, its not like it hasn't happened before)

or

2. Walter really was just trying to reclaim his life once he left Wish House and the Cult, and truly wanted to just make a living and die in peace. But the Valtiel that was placed in him caused him to snap and revert to his childhood wishes.

Though it does seem to be apparent that Valtiel validates the killings as sacraments.

God, this game needs its own "Lost Memories" type book.

[The Adversary]

>God, this game needs its own "Lost Memories" type book.
It does.

Valtiel's presence in Walter is only during the First Sign, while Valtiel "judges" the first ten sacraments. Seeing as they all have to be "sinners," who better to judge them than the Order's sacrosanct judge, jury and executioner?

The latter sacraments, however, are never referred to as sinners, so Valtiel is unnecessary.

[11x20]

@MMY/Mockingbird/The-Artist-Formerly-Known-As
Yeah, since I asked a long time ago, I've thought about it off and on and that is the answer I seem to come up with as well-- the First Sign was separated by their motif as the "Ten Hearts" of sinners. I suppose that once Walter is made a kind of god-like or ascended being, he has the power to make the subsequent killings valid on his own.

[Master_Sun]

Why would he want to continue the ritual if Valtiel was manipulating him the whole time?

[11x20]

I think that even without Valtiel, he was obsessed with and even fashioned to take part in that ritual since his childhood. He was raised into their cult in a really traumatic way (like if he didn't memorize stuff right it was off to the prison where he and other children were abused)

I would guess that if he didn't decide to reclaim his life after getting out of Wish House (which I'm guessing was 18 when he was considered an adult and went to Pleasant River), then he would have probably gone through with the ritual on his own in effort to fulfill his childhood wishes.

Even without Valtiel, he's a bit warped.

[AuraTwilight]

Why would he want to continue the ritual if Valtiel was manipulating him the whole time?

Because he wasn't. Valtiel wasn't controlling Walter, he simply gave him the ability to perform the ritual properly.

[The Adversary]

Why would Valtiel demand Walter kill 3 key figures in the Order, the group arranged to birth god?

Walter chose he wanted to kill, Valtiel made it possible. The intent was not to see his mother again, but to exact revenge on everyone—everyone—that ever fuck'd w/ him, methodically and brutally.

[Master_Sun]

I meant that, since he was implying that Valtiel might have treated him as the 11th Sacrament, why Walter would want to continue the ritual as a spirit if Valtiel was controlling his mind the whole time and would be released..

[AuraTwilight]

VALTIEL WASN'T CONTROLLING HIM.

Reading comprehension is something you need to grasp. It's getting annoying to hammer the same point over and over.

[Master_Sun]

You're the one with reading comprehension problems; I was never trying to say that I believed that. granolabar implied that's what he believed and I was asking him a question regarding how it would be possible.

Your hypocritical whining, constant policing, and ill-conceived arguments are annoying, so I guess that balances things out, or maybe not.

[11x20]

Whoa, whoa, come on now, let's just get an espresso and talk this over, eh?

I was just throwing out some ideas, but I do believe most likely Valtiel was controlling him-- I just like to have alternate hypotheses up my sleeve to fall back on.

Now what were we talking about again?

[Master_Sun]

I asked you that, if we assumed that Valtiel was controlling him, and then suddenly lost control, why would he want to continue the ritual (which he did) that would have been against his will? But this doesn't seem to matter anymore, since you don't really seem sure yourself..

[11x20]

Well, I do care, its just that I like to be open to a plethora of ideas, y'know?

I'm very torn on the issue, really. You see, it's convenient to say Valtiel wasn't controlling him-- it reinforces the idea that his victims were chosen because he simply hated them and felt that they fucked with him. (Revenge motive)

But part of why I'm also open to Valtiel actually controlling him is because when the police arrest him, he acts like he didn't even realize what he had been doing. Now of course, it makes sense for a criminal to act that way -- "I'm innocent, I'm innocent, gtfo" -- but this guilt gives him more drive to commit suicide. We see that he has guilt in the cases of Miriam and Billy Locaine, but on the other hand, he could have really picked them himself but still felt guilty afterward. When you add that Valtiel is a higher power, it becomes very likely that Valtiel controlled him in his 10 hearts killings.

When one asks, "Why would Valtiel kill members of the very cult that's trying to birth god?" Well, they were all sinners, really. Look at what they did to children-- hell, even look at Toby Archbolt, he was a drug dealer and implied pedophile (Translated Memories describes him as liking "young girls"). I think Valtiel could care less whether they were affiliated with the cult or not, they sinned, and they were close, quick kills. Remember what happened to Claudia? Valtiel pulled her ass down like it was nothing, and she even had the god fetus in her-- yes, you can say she interrupted the gestation in Heather, so it pissed off Valtiel, but the point remains that she too was a part of the same cult and Valtiel had no problem messing her ass up, with the god inside her, at that!



Now let's flip the coin-- Valtiel was -not- controlling him and Walter was acting on revenge.
1. The members of the cult fucked with him-- good reason to want to kill them, it makes sense.

2. Some of the 10 hearts victims... I don't see what drive Walter would have to kill them-- they didn't mess with him. Eric Walsh, William Gregory, Rick Albert (the only motive I could see is, "Kill the boss. He's an asshole." haha)

3. Why would he kill Billy and Miriam out of his own will? What made them so suitable for the 10 hearts murders in Walter's eyes? He didn't even know them. This is the biggest reason why I think Valtiel picked the victims and Walter just happened to have initial motives to murder some of them (like Rosten, Stone, and -maybe- Sein and the other teenagers. Maybe their disrespect of his religion pissed him off?)

4. Getting back on this side of the coin-- Let's say Walter just killed these other people because they had something he didn't-- good memories (Walsh and his birthday), a happy life (Billy and Miriam), etc. You could say his motive was less "revenge" and more "jealousy" (he's not right in the head-- it would make sense for him to take jealousy or envy to a whole new destructive level and target these people).



I myself am not entirely sold on the "Walter did it of his own free will" side, but that's only because of the questions I posed above. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not open to the possibility, because there really -are- some valid reasons for Walter to pick each victim on his own. I just kind of figured it would be more methodical if he did it. If Valtiel picked them, it made more sense for him to kill people he hardly knew or had zero interaction with because Valtiel could probably see something inside them that made them worth killing and having their hearts stolen.

I should really just pick a side and stick with it. At this point its not even open minded, it's just indecisive. .__.

[Kairu]

Apart from the red devil and the resurrection bit, what else is there to make the assumption that Vatiel is one with Walter? I may be asking a dumb question cos 4 is one of my least played Silent Hills apart from Homecoming which I play less. I've read the victim files thats on the lost memories site, but don't recall anything that links 4 and Vatiel , mayhaps I need to read it again, but mainly I'm interested to see if anyone can convince me.