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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 23 Jun 2011
Notes left: 161
Last seen at: Silent Hill
Where did you find the note about the stone? Was is Eileen rambling on in the forest world? I don't remember hearing about a big rock in Silent Hill.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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The SH Champion wrote:
Where did you find the note about the stone? Was is Eileen rambling on in the forest world? I don't remember hearing about a big rock in Silent Hill.


It's where you meet Jasper for the first time in the forest world. He's sitting by a big rock, and if you wait long enough, he'll start talking about it. That's where all of the info on the N-n-n-na-nakeehona comes from.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
I never said Vincent created the world and in retrospect have no idea what your point is since I didn't say that. To imply such and that I said such because I said Heather used it incorrectly is a flawed argument in itself.


I was just indicating that Vincent's thoughts do not dictate reality, so I don't know why you brought him into the argument.

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Yes, but it doesn't explain other characters. I.e. James.


James doesn't make things happen in the real world. What's your point?

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On the contrary where does it say Alessa helped? I remember Dahlia asking to use Alessa's power but there was no such statement it was going to be used to kill people and although Heather says "she could kill just by wishing for it" it makes no reference to the Order killing anyone using Alessa.


Silent Hill 3. Alessa could kill people with her mind.

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Magic drawn from the God makes sense, because that's the very definiton of magic. You draw from supernatural beings, your own power, nature etc. Unless you're not understanding how magic works? Also, it's close to the roots of demons according to the guidebook, just like Flauros. The definition of "black magic" in occultism of the Western eras was usage of demons, and Flauros itself is from the Goetia. So it's not from the realm of impossibility. It also means they had foreknowledge of the occult and I thought it was fairly obvious in SH1 that the Order had been into the occult for years.


You are, of course, making the assumption that magic is a real thing in the Silent Hill universe. We could be dealing with a more Lovecraftian setting where people are messing with a force they don't really understand, and use their meaningless rituals to codify the patterns they've noticed.

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Where?


"Anyone swallowed up by that world
will live there for eternity, undying.
They will haunt that realm as a spirit.
How can our Lord forgive such an
abomination...?
"

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Because if it’s “false” it is NOT the deity. It is a faux deity. Either said deity doesn’t exist, as No God is on the otherworld altar area, or the deity does exist and this one isn’t it. In order for something to be “fake” or “false” something else has to be “real” and “truth”, they’re not mutually exclusice.


Says you. A deity is merely something that is believed in and worshipped, and in the Otherworld, false things take on a real form. Ergo, Alessa can give birth to a real god based off of false beliefs.

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The incubator and the incubus are not the same thing. Lost Memories made that pretty clear.


Yea, it says that one is Alessa's vision of God, and the other is Dahlia's. But they're both God.

Quote:

Taken from "The Magician card".


Yea, except that's not what the passage says. You said that Valtiel appears differently to everyone who sees him. This says he's only appeared in different forms before in the series, and can appear to players again in a different form. Those are two entirely different concepts with only superficial similarities.


I see you're under the impression your opinions are fact and aren't up for discussion. I think that concludes everything, specifically that although I completely disagree with you about the concept of gods in Silent Hill, among other things which you apparently don't understand that I'm saying, than I won't say anything. If you don't understand something ask for clarification, but don't jump to wild conclusions I never even said.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I see you're under the impression your opinions are fact and aren't up for discussion.


I'm not. Where are you getting that impression, since you just quoted the whole post as a single block?

Quote:
If you don't understand something ask for clarification


I did in the last post on atleast one point that you ignored, and a few times in my second-to-last point that you either ignored or dodged. You're the only who seems like you're not up to discussing the validity of your opinions and stances, since you're getting all defensive when I've indicated two factual instances of your incorrectness.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
Eh, not really. I discussed fine with Soul and others, even if we disagreed. (In fact I enjoyed it.) So that pretty much wipes that argument there.

I was having problems with IE when I posted that, and it's impossible to do that massive debating on mobile. So I couldn't reply correctly.

Quote:
I was just indicating that Vincent's thoughts do not dictate reality, so I don't know why you brought him into the argument.


I think you're misunderstanding my original post.

Quote:
You are, of course, making the assumption that magic is a real thing in the Silent Hill universe. We could be dealing with a more Lovecraftian setting where people are messing with a force they don't really understand, and use their meaningless rituals to codify the patterns they've noticed.


Magic/supernatural is canon to Silent Hill series. I thought that was obvious with ghosts...

[/quote]Says you. A deity is merely something that is believed in and worshipped, and in the Otherworld, false things take on a real form. Ergo, Alessa can give birth to a real god based off of false beliefs.[/quote]

This would be your opinion that all deities are all thought forms. It is not mine, which I've made clear, don't project.

As said before in order for something to be "fake" it has to have something "real" to compare it to. This is the same with every delusion in the series including God.

I.e. For a handbag to be a knockoff, there's got to be a REAL version of said handbag for it to be one. If there is NOTHING to compare than it is not "fake" or "false".

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Silent Hill 3. Alessa could kill people with her mind.


You're skirting around the issue and my point. It never says Alessa was used by the Order to kill people. I didn't deny what Heather said Alessa could kill people with her mind. We have absolutely no idea when, on who, or what she did with this power. It is never specified. There's no implication Alessa was used to kill people.

Quote:
Yea, except that's not what the passage says. You said that Valtiel appears differently to everyone who sees him. This says he's only appeared in different forms before in the series, and can appear to players again in a different form. Those are two entirely different concepts with only superficial similarities.


If the Val is summoned by someone in regards that he'll appear in new games under a different form, that implies similarly to "God".

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I think you're misunderstanding my original post.


Then can you please explain better, for me?

Quote:
Magic/supernatural is canon to Silent Hill series. I thought that was obvious with ghosts...


When I said 'Magic' I was referring specifically to the casting spells, rituals having legitimate effects, magical items, and the like. My counter-theory is that these effects are just caused by people with inherent power making reality behave the way they think it should behave.

Ghosts are a separate matter entirely, since ghosts don't prove magic and vice versa, and there exist many worldviews and religious models that have one but not the other.

Quote:
This would be your opinion that all deities are all thought forms. It is not mine, which I've made clear, don't project.


That's not the point I was making. The point I was making is that 'deity' is a subjective concept that only concretely applies to 'that which is worshipped by people'. Anything else, such as the properties of a deity, can also be applied to different non-deity figures from different mythologies and worldviews, such as spirits and fairies, and different religions can't even agree on the nature of deities.

So If the Silent Hill deity 'exists', that doesn't really tell us much. Just because it 'exists', for instance, doesn't mean the Order's mythology is CORRECT, or that it ever existed before Alessa gave birth to it, or that it can do any of the things it's purported to be able to do...

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As said before in order for something to be "fake" it has to have something "real" to compare it to. This is the same with every delusion in the series including God.[/qutoe]

This is completely false. For instance, the Lying Figure. Lying Figures never existed in reality. James' subconscious invented them.

To use a metaphor, if I make an clockwork fairy, capable of moving if I wind it up so it moves like a fairy, does this 'fake' fairy prove that there are 'real' fairies to base it off of? No, it doesn't. It only means that I created a 'fake' based off of the image in my head.

Quote:
I.e. For a handbag to be a knockoff, there's got to be a REAL version of said handbag for it to be one. If there is NOTHING to compare than it is not "fake" or "false".


Handbags can be demonstrated to exist in real life, so they're not as good an example.

Quote:

You're skirting around the issue and my point. It never says Alessa was used by the Order to kill people. I didn't deny what Heather said Alessa could kill people with her mind. We have absolutely no idea when, on who, or what she did with this power. It is never specified. There's no implication Alessa was used to kill people.


Then what did Dahlia want to 'borrow a little of [Alessa's] power' for, that Alessa 'didn't want to do"? How would Heather KNOW she could kill people with her mind if she's never DONE it? And given Alessa's powers, why would she ever kill people unless she was forced or coerced to do it? She won't even kill the people responsible for her seven years of suffering.

Quote:
If the Val is summoned by someone in regards that he'll appear in new games under a different form, that implies similarly to "God".


And I'm saying the passage does not say this. It says that he's appeared in different forms BEFORE. This is different from "He appears differently to everyone", which is what you originally said. It doesn't even say that he takes a form based on his summoner's desire, like with God.

All we know is that Valtiel can take different forms. We don't know which of these forms are his true form, if any, and we don't know if they're illusionary, what causes him to take these different forms, and how much we can TRUST these forms to reflect Valtiel's true nature. Anything we can speculate about these matters are just that: Speculation.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
I'm posting from mobile, so you'll have to excuse how I reply to this but...

On Vincent/Otherworld, when I was replying they were talking about belief becoming reality(otherworld). My response was to the fact that both Vincent and Leonard believed in it, but it didn't do anything. I suppose I wasn't actually disagreeing with you.

In regards to magic. Under classification magic is a tool, doesn't have to do with religion but can, and is a pseudo-science. Walter was able to create his own other world and do other things via rituals, I assume magic works. As well as the death of people such as Officer Gucci that had to do with spells. (Which to my knowledge had nothing to do with the otherworld.) Alessa herself is performing a ritual using SOM, however this is incomplete. That's why cg verisions of god have the SOM as well.

As with God, we're not actually disagreeing at all. You just went into more detail with it. I never stated the Order's idea of God to be correct, if anything I lean towards Alessa's ideal in the context of the game.

The Valtiel, I think your point is valid and this is another way of looking at it. We can't really know for sure since we don't have anything to compare..... Although, in regards to SOM being on Val, doesn't mean its signifigant to THEM (The Order). It may be signifigant in a way we do NOT understand, which would be why he has it tattooed.

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
I'm not sure who your points are directed at, Edea, but I'll answer anyway. :) I'm sure we're way off topic, and I'll be happy to move this discussion to a more appropriate thread if asked, but I'm also enjoying this discussion (hence my reply).

Edea wrote:
On Vincent/Otherworld, when I was replying they were talking about belief becoming reality(otherworld). My response was to the fact that both Vincent and Leonard believed in it, but it didn't do anything. I suppose I wasn't actually disagreeing with you.

Like Aura already said, Heather was creating the Otherworld. Vincent and Leonard were just caught up in it, kind of like Harry in SH1, but a hell of a lot less clueless and innocent. As they didn't create the Otherworld in SH3, they're beliefs weren't important, and therefore couldn't affect anything. The person creating the otherworld is the only one with control over it, even if it's subconscious.

Edea wrote:
In regards to magic. Under classification magic is a tool, doesn't have to do with religion but can, and is a pseudo-science. Walter was able to create his own other world and do other things via rituals, I assume magic works. As well as the death of people such as Officer Gucci that had to do with spells. (Which to my knowledge had nothing to do with the otherworld.) Alessa herself is performing a ritual using SOM, however this is incomplete. That's why cg verisions of god have the SOM as well.

Well, each of those were different.
- Walter had Valtiel's help for the most part. That probably had something to do with his success when it came to rituals/magic/what not. On top of that, he had his own power, though I admit we don't know if he was born with it or if he "absorbed" it somehow from living in Silent Hill.
- We don't really know about Officer Gucci, other than his sudden and inexplicable death. Apparently he was healthy. Alessa could have been used to kill him, or magic/rituals. Anything about this would just be speculation, though I'm inclined to assume Dahlia used Alessa (but I'm biased :D ).
- Alessa had her own power, and was in an otherworld she had some control over whilst making the crests. While I still think the power of belief is still a major factor in whether or not it worked, her power could also have had some affect.
Overall, we can't really say for sure, but we do know that the otherworld is a place that works on thought. We've seen that. So, I think it's safe to assume that any ritual, magic, or whatnot that is done either in the Otherworld or in/around Silent Hill and Toluca Lake only works because the person doing it either has some serious power (Alessa and Walter), or the mere fact they strongly believe the ritual/magic will do its thing is enough to make it do its thing.
For all we know, magic and rituals performed in a place that isn't Silent Hill/Toluca Lake probably wouldn't do anything at all.
I think it was when I was reading about Wicca (been a while now), but if I remember correctly, thought plays a lot in that too. For example, if you send out positive thoughts things will have a way of working, apparently. Good thoughts = good things. Bad thoughts = bad things (coming back and biting one on the arse).

Edea wrote:
As with God, we're not actually disagreeing at all. You just went into more detail with it. I never stated the Order's idea of God to be correct, if anything I lean towards Alessa's ideal in the context of the game.

While I do like Alessa's version of God more than anything else, I think, if their God is real, that She can simply take the form of whatever it is her Mother believes. There is no right or wrong answer. Personally I think any God's form could change based on whatever the majority of believers worship. I also believe the same about their angels (Valtiel). I know this is completely different series, but in FFIX the eidolons have been described as changing in appearance over time. For example, Shiva was originally a young girl when her eidolon was discovered, but by the time we get her in-game she is an adult woman (I think it was a span of 500 years or more. Not 100% sure). This is explained in-game on the Eidolon Wall that over time beliefs change, and with them so do the Eidolons. I believe gods, angels, eidolons, etc are very similar in this regard.

Edea wrote:
The Valtiel, I think your point is valid and this is another way of looking at it. We can't really know for sure since we don't have anything to compare.....

Isn't Valtiel shown in some paintings in SH3 as being a young girl in red? Or is that the Red God? >_< Or are they the same? *can't remember*

Edea wrote:
Although, in regards to SOM being on Val, doesn't mean its signifigant to THEM (The Order). It may be signifigant in a way we do NOT understand, which would be why he has it tattooed.

I'll admit that I think there's more to the Virun VII Crest than we know, but I still think the crest itself is important to The Order. Like I said, I don't think it would be there if it wasn't significant to them, just like the crucifix is important to Christians (obviously with a completely different meaning, of course ;) ).
I don't think it would be there simply because Alessa tried using it, either. Valtiel seems to be a separate entity when compared to the Otherworld and the other monsters in that he wasn't created through Heather or Alessa's fears or nightmares, nor is he a transfigured cult member. He seems to be his own thing, even if he only exists to help with God's birth.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
The koshiki guidebook makes it clear the Order cast magic and had done so before, something both the book mentions and Lisa says something about "developmental staff".

That's probably Neo-wicca you read about which is rather, New Age. Wiccan belief is very new, and doesn't reflect all those in the occult.

All we know about was that the Valtiel is when he started to do the 21 sacraments, and allowed him to do so. It never says it helped in anything else. However, he did seem to be doing a ritual in Henry's apartment far from Silent Hill.

Lost Memories states the other world is everywhere and not limited to Silent Hill. Specifically, it's connected to the dream world. All of it is normal in "dream working"--in other words the games are one big magical stories.

I think you're talking about evolution of deities/religion which 3 barely touches on.

The painting, eh I don't remember Val being in there. The child is unidentified and could be a lesser deity as you said. I remember PH being in there though.

Well regarding SOM and Val if I read correctly... I think this is similar to what you were saying and the memo in 3 said about God and images coming to change...... Metatron is called an "agent of God" by Owaku, as is Valtiel. The sigil spell has nothing to do with summoning Metatron, however. But Owaku had said that the Pyramid Head's functions are the reason for Valtiel's existence, I.e. Executionar. However, Samael, Metatron's opposite, is the exectuinar and LM makes reference to them sharing the same existence. SOM itself is a spell of annihiliation according to Koshiki, which fits Samael not Metatron. But to confused it all over again Val is never seen executing anything, he does the opposite. Lastly, he's not even actually an angel. Just comparable to one! *shrugs*

My reply was to Aura. 'Sok though.

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Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19398
Last seen at: #lfk
>Isn't Valtiel shown in some paintings in SH3 as being a young girl in red? Or is that the Red God? >_< Or are they the same?<
My interpretation has always been that the two little girls, dressed in red and yellow, are Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith respectively, in their "true" forms. Valtiel, though, is not depicted in any of the paintings. This is partially why I disagree with the idea that Valtiel is Xuchilbara.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
I'm thinking you're correct Adv, because of the paralells of triads that keep repeating in the myths. (Xuchilbara, Lobsel Vith, God, and God, the man and woman who birthed her, and the 3 saints.) It's the most logical conclusion and when I had my own forum back in 2006, before I ever came here, I had said the same thing.

Valtiel is more comparable to an angel rather than a minor god.

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Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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I consider Valtiel to be the Order's equivalent of Metatron.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
The Adversary wrote:
I consider Valtiel to be the Order's equivalent of Metatron.



This would be the only logical conclusion given the evidence and the same I have gathered from the games. Although it adds to the confusion when God is given angel names as well....

Valtiel isn't even an angel, only in comparison.

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Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


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