Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 16 Dec 2017




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
It had hundreds of candles around it.
It had something to do with Jasper's ghost appearing close to it.


So what? Jasper died near it, so of course he'd appear by it.

And it has candles around it since it's sacred. Remember when I said that the Native Americans deified it?

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 May 2009
Notes left: 1541
Last seen at: Some random piece of land enclosed by imaginary lines drawn on a map based on past conflict results.
Holy Candles that render ghosts imobile, aren't exactly regular items.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
The "holy" candles don't even really have an effect on Jasper during the confrontation between him and Henry. He flies around them like they aren't even there, while he spazzes out when you place one of the designated Holy Candles.

So, the candles around the rock are not Holy Candles, but "holy" candles, just placed there in praise and blessing, not to banish ghosts.

_________________
Image
The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
World Toilet Organization
I'm like a circle, I'M TOO GOOD FOR CORNERS!!!


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Besides, they're ordinary candles anyway. They have an effect on ghosts because Walter created that world and he says so. In the real world, the same candles wouldn't do anything.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
That is basically what I was saying. The candles around the Mother Stone are nothing special to Walter so they don't do anything to Jasper or any other ghost in the game.

_________________
Image
The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
World Toilet Organization
I'm like a circle, I'M TOO GOOD FOR CORNERS!!!


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, I was referring to the Holy Candles in general. :P

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 26 May 2009
Notes left: 40
Personaly I thought the "rock" was a nice touch. I had been searching online for awhile for a pic of the complete rock, but no luck. I am going to make a miniature version of the rock for some the miniature games I play (Heroscape). I might post a pic when I am finished.

_________________
My Silent Hill/Heroscape Project
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/sh ... hp?t=25196


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
If I am recalling correctly, not only did the NA's believe in spirits in the rocks and trees around them, (It also resembles Shintoism.) but the Holy Mother Sect believed God would be descended via rock. This is where the two sects disagreed.

In the Play Novel there's a curious memo I think was intended for Silent Hill one, I regard the PN similar to how Umbrella Chronicles/Darkside Chronicles is to Resident Evil canon.

Quote:
Chapter 5 "Library"
Picking up the dictionary of religious science

Page 1 (Close up of the dictionary of religious science)
"Depending on the region each have the characteristic of having
individual doctrines.
From ancient times the practice of offering a living sacrifice was the
only way to avoid disaster.

Page 2
Most believers are those who have chosen to renounce the world for the sake
of their beliefs, while those believers who can not yet give up their
material possessions need to deepen their knowledge of the sacred texts.
However, some believers have a tendency to strictly hide the fact
that they are believers from others.

Page 3
This is because they believed that if the fact that they are believers
becomes known then their effectiveness would become nothing.

Even with black magic, which is thought to have vanished in present times,
its magical spells are actively researched in such areas.

Page 4
In that process an altar set alight with a sacred flame and a symbolic seal
were required. Then by summoning an evil being and bringing it to contact with
a saint a new existence is said to be able to be created.


Page 5
In this case the saint is not limited to a priest, as an inanimate
object can also be used.
"


I think this applies to both rivaling sects and they had thought it out before hand.

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 14 Jul 2010
Notes left: 75
Last seen at: Come in and see
Well, perhaps Walter added that rock to his world just because he was impressed by the name of it, you know, "the mother stone"... I doubt there is another reason for it to be in SH4.

Besides, it is impossible to verify if it really have any effect or if is it a source of power of the town (or region). There is no evidence of it. We only know that the natives worshiped and believed that it had supernatural powers. And that'sall. With the little we know, there's no way to say that it really had such powers or not.


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Corva09_im wrote:
Well, perhaps Walter added that rock to his world just because he was impressed by the name of it, you know, "the mother stone"... I doubt there is another reason for it to be in SH4.

Besides, it is impossible to verify if it really have any effect or if is it a source of power of the town (or region). There is no evidence of it. We only know that the natives worshiped and believed that it had supernatural powers. And that'sall. With the little we know, there's no way to say that it really had such powers or not.

I think that, given that it's apparently located near Silent Hill and Toluca Lake, that if people believe it had power, then it really did have power.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
I never suggested it had supernatural powers... Although I believe we all agree it's "important" in the town's history. I'm inclined to believe Walter's main ritual, the 21 Sacrements, was intended to descend God using something like that stone, however. This was my point anyway.

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Edea wrote:
I never suggested it had supernatural powers... Although I believe we all agree it's "important" in the town's history.

I agree that it's important to the town's history, and that we don't know if it has any power at all, but if someone does believe it has power, it would have power. That seems to be the nature of the otherworld. For example;
Minor spoilers for SH1
[Reveal] Spoiler:
If Alessa had been able to complete the crests, then they would have done exactly what she had believed them to do.


Similarly...
Minor spoilers for SH3
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The Virun VII Crest didn't work because Heather thought it was nothing more than junk. If she had believed in it, it would have worked.


The otherworld seems to work on thought and dreams, so if one believes...

Edea wrote:
I'm inclined to believe Walter's main ritual, the 21 Sacrements, was intended to descend God using something like that stone, however. This was my point anyway.

Probably. Wasn't it located near the orphanage or something else to do with the cult? Or was that just Walter's otherworld twisting things around?


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Vincent believed in it. Claudia called it a 'piece of junk'. It has little relevence to the Order in general. Heather used it incorrectly. LM makes mention of powers Claudia and Heather have, it's obvious Alessa had a "mysterious power" too. You can see that in 1, lol. So it's not a placebo effect, there's more going on in Silent Hill.

To top it all off, Flauros was the boss of Origins. People disputed it, but I think it was Nur, went into the game files and it's named "Flauros". Then you have God being a false belief, yet Alessa's image of God is not one. So yeah, there's supernatural in SH and it's way more than thought forms. Not including the ghosts, reincarnation, and angels, haha. Although, thought forms I don't exclude.

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Edea wrote:
It has little relevence to the Order in general.

The crest is tattooed on Valtiel's arm/s. Seeing as he is an important figure in the cult, that suggests the crest itself is also important.


Edea wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
LM makes mention of powers Claudia and Heather have, it's obvious Alessa had a "mysterious power" too. You can see that in 1, lol. So it's not a placebo effect, there's more going on in Silent Hill.

Alessa and Claudia's power may or may not have something to do with the area's power (not the thought/belief/dream based stuff), but that doesn't change that what one thinks or feels can have an impact on things in the otherworld. So, like I said, if one thinks the Mother Stone has supernatural power, as opposed to just being a historically significant landmark, then it could have supernatural power.

Edea wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
To top it all off, Flauros was the boss of Origins. People disputed it, but I think it was Nur, went into the game files and it's named "Flauros". Then you have God being a false belief, yet Alessa's image of God is not one. So yeah, there's supernatural in SH and it's way more than thought forms. Not including the ghosts, reincarnation, and angels, haha. Although, thought forms I don't exclude.

Most of that (other than ghosts and reincarnations) can still be attributed to thoughts and beliefs though, possibly even God's form. Her form seems to change depending on who summoned/created/birthed her. As for the Flauros demon...it's open for debate whether or not Travis really experienced that, or if he dreamed it. I don't doubt there's something supernatural going on in Silent Hill though. I don't think it's entirely as simple as something that can change/create based purely on thought.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 14 Jul 2010
Notes left: 75
Last seen at: Come in and see
Edea wrote:
I never suggested it had supernatural powers...


I know, but what I said was in response to the original question of this topic

Edea wrote:
I'm inclined to believe Walter's main ritual, the 21 Sacrements, was intended to descend God using something like that stone, however. This was my point anyway.


It is right what you say about the Holy Mother sect; that they believed God would be descended via rock.
But really don't if it has any relevance in the ritual that Walter is performing, although it's the aforementioned ritual of 21 Sacraments. I mean, we see that rock only in the Forest World and then there is no mention about it again. Even in the end there's any appearance or something that represents it. Perhaps it's something that Walter did not give much importance or he ignored that part (I doubt it anyway).
Maybe I should replay some parts to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure of that.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
... but if someone does believe it has power, it would have power. That seems to be the nature of the otherworld.


That's ok. But what would be the real question then? If the rock has powers in someone's Otherworld, or if it own them in the real world?
Because what I said was in relation to the real world, not in the otherworld or the world created by Walter.

The natives who worshiped the rock lived in the real world, not in the Otherworld. At least I think so.

(Sorry if I have some problems in the gramatic, my english isn't too good.)


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Edea wrote:
It has little relevence to the Order in general.

The crest is tattooed on Valtiel's arm/s. Seeing as he is an important figure in the cult, that suggests the crest itself is also important.


I'm going what the guidebook says and the Valtiel's form changes depending on who sees it so that doesn't prove it has any relevence to the order.


Quote:
Alessa and Claudia's power may or may not have something to do with the area's power (not the thought/belief/dream based stuff), but that doesn't change that what one thinks or feels can have an impact on things in the otherworld. So, like I said, if one thinks the Mother Stone has supernatural power, as opposed to just being a historically significant landmark, then it could have supernatural power.


Heather had no belief using that incantation to kill a monster, Claudia is mostly unaware she has power over peoples' hearts, and this doesn't explain Alessa's power at all. (Or Claudia's power, "sight".) Nor does it explain why magic works outside of the context of the otherworld, as the cult has been using it to kill people for awhile. Given the evidence there's more to SH than belief = reality. If there wasn't Maria wouldn't be able to see/hear ghosts.

Quote:
Most of that (other than ghosts and reincarnations) can still be attributed to thoughts and beliefs though, possibly even God's form. Her form seems to change depending on who summoned/created/birthed her. As for the Flauros demon...it's open for debate whether or not Travis really experienced that, or if he dreamed it. I don't doubt there's something supernatural going on in Silent Hill though. I don't think it's entirely as simple as something that can change/create based purely on thought.


I dunno the debates surrounding Travis, so I'll leave that out. Even tho you can use that argument it doesn't explain or make Claudia and Dahlia any less delusional about God. Whereas the game doesn't do that for Alessa. Now, for the false belief to work either there's no God or that is not God at all. This is why people theorize the Woman in White to be the actual God since she looks normal and is not a delusion that's being projected. It's the power of deduction really.

As for the thing someone else said about the rock not being mentioned again.. There's tons of things like that in Silent Hill, really doesn't mean anything lol.

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Vincent believed in it. Claudia called it a 'piece of junk'. It has little relevence to the Order in general. Heather used it incorrectly. LM makes mention of powers Claudia and Heather have, it's obvious Alessa had a "mysterious power" too. You can see that in 1, lol. So it's not a placebo effect, there's more going on in Silent Hill.

To top it all off, Flauros was the boss of Origins. People disputed it, but I think it was Nur, went into the game files and it's named "Flauros". Then you have God being a false belief, yet Alessa's image of God is not one. So yeah, there's supernatural in SH and it's way more than thought forms. Not including the ghosts, reincarnation, and angels, haha. Although, thought forms I don't exclude.


The thing is, Heather was the one creating the world in SH3, not Vincent. Your entire argument is flawed, here. I'd consider revising it.

As for the Flauros Demon, well...Alessa was taught that the Flauros object was a cage, so her thoughts become reality...

Quote:
Heather had no belief using that incantation to kill a monster, Claudia is mostly unaware she has power over peoples' hearts, and this doesn't explain Alessa's power at all. (Or Claudia's power, "sight".) Nor does it explain why magic works outside of the context of the otherworld, as the cult has been using it to kill people for awhile. Given the evidence there's more to SH than belief = reality. If there wasn't Maria wouldn't be able to see/hear ghosts.


Heather might not, but Alessa does.

As for Alessa's and Claudia's psychic powers, well...isn't psychic power just the ability to do things with your mind? To make your thoughts reality?

Also, there's no evidence that the Order could use magic to kill people without Alessa's help. Hell, before she got the idea to impregnate her, Dahlia was using Alessa for exactly that purpose.

Ghosts are minds, which are bundles of thought. Those who die in the Otherworld don't get to leave, according to SH4.

Quote:
I dunno the debates surrounding Travis, so I'll leave that out. Even tho you can use that argument it doesn't explain or make Claudia and Dahlia any less delusional about God. Whereas the game doesn't do that for Alessa. Now, for the false belief to work either there's no God or that is not God at all. This is why people theorize the Woman in White to be the actual God since she looks normal and is not a delusion that's being projected. It's the power of deduction really.

As for the thing someone else said about the rock not being mentioned again.. There's tons of things like that in Silent Hill, really doesn't mean anything lol.


Excuse me, but what does the existence of an actual deity have to do with the existence of a false one?

And the Woman in White and the Incubus are the same deity, just in different forms. Whether that deity is real, false, etcetera doesn't matter, they're the same entity.

Quote:
I'm going what the guidebook says and the Valtiel's form changes depending on who sees it so that doesn't prove it has any relevence to the order.


Can you point to the exact page? I remember reading this about God, but not Valtiel.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 02 Feb 2010
Notes left: 135
Last seen at: Arizona Bay
AuraTwilight wrote:
The thing is, Heather was the one creating the world in SH3, not Vincent. Your entire argument is flawed, here. I'd consider revising it.


I never said Vincent created the world and in retrospect have no idea what your point is since I didn't say that. To imply such and that I said such because I said Heather used it incorrectly is a flawed argument in itself.

Quote:
Q: What is the Seal of Metatron?

A: It's like a spell of annihilation.

What Alessa was actually creating was the Seal of Metatron. Its name is derived from the name
of an angel of release in the Kabbalistic system. Bound by the cult's spell and living in an endless
nightmare in agony, Alessa's wish was for a complete death. Since she was unable to die in a
normal fashion while under the influence of the power of the malevolent deity, Alessa intended
to "annihilate" herself by the power of the Seal of Metatron with the nightmare world at hand.
At the moment Cheryl and Alessa united, she gained the power to escape from the cult's spell; at
the same time, the technique that brought about the descent of the cult's god succeeded and the
malevolent deity resumed its maturation process. This time, Alessa was engaged in a struggle,
a race between the malevolent god's maturation and the seal's completion. If the seal were to be
completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa. However,
as it is questionable whether the Seal of Metatron actually has this sort of power, there is also the
possibility that Alessa, using knowledge she acquired when she was very young, freed herself from
the effects of the malevolent god's power through autosuggestion and was attempting to realize her
own death. Because Dahlia was at least aware of the fact that Alessa had the will to end her own life,
she prepared for the worst-case scenario and took steps to prevent this from happening. She used
Harry for that very purpose.
Alessa was creating the Seal of Metatron at the school, hospital, antique shop, lighthouse, and
amusement park. Draw lines connecting these seals and their placement creates an enormous
Mark of Samael throughout the town. The seal may also have been created in other places as well.



This is more of a ritual, or high magic. Sigil magic is not you "simply draw a sigil and it works", it's much more complicated than that.

Quote:
As for Alessa's and Claudia's psychic powers, well...isn't psychic power just the ability to do things with your mind? To make your thoughts reality?


Yes, but it doesn't explain other characters. I.e. James.

Quote:
Also, there's no evidence that the Order could use magic to kill people without Alessa's help. Hell, before she got the idea to impregnate her, Dahlia was using Alessa for exactly that purpose.


On the contrary where does it say Alessa helped? I remember Dahlia asking to use Alessa's power but there was no such statement it was going to be used to kill people and although Heather says "she could kill just by wishing for it" it makes no reference to the Order killing anyone using Alessa.

Quote:
Q: What sort of partnership did Dahlia and Kaufmann have?

A: One centered around drugs and magic.

Dahlia and Kaufmann were connected by the trade of White Claudia, used to make the drug PTV.
In the game, the white powder in the safe at the general store is PTV. The cult has used White
Claudia, the raw material for the drug, during its rituals since ancient times. In short, despite the
fact that the religious cult to which Dahlia belongs is a secret society, they have come to possess
the sort of structure and organizational capability that allows them to manufacture narcotics beyond
the reach of police surveillance. White Claudia, which is refined into the extremely powerful drug
PTV, is transferred out of the cult and sold chiefly to tourists by Kaufmann. In return, Kaufmann
carries out illegal medical dealings, such as phony autopsy reports and diverting pharmaceuticals
into illegal channels. And then, ever since the fire seven years ago, magic through the power of the
malevolent god and the matter of nursing the burned Alessa became bargaining points. Kaufmann's
desire, the scope of which illustrates his worldly self-interests, was the profit yielded by the drug.
Kaufmann is a realist by nature who does not believe in things like spells and black magic, but he
accepted the responsibility of caring for Alessa so that the White Claudia exchange would continue
to take place in his favor. However, being a firsthand witness to the deaths of the mayor and a
narcotics officer, both of which were brought about by means of the magic drawn from the embryonic
malevolent god's power, it seems he came to the decision that if the magic was something he could
use, he would take advantage of it. Incidentally, the "mysterious deaths of a development group"
that Lisa mentions during her conversation with Harry is a kind of urban legend, so whether or not
that sort of thing actually happened is uncertain.



Magic drawn from the God makes sense, because that's the very definiton of magic. You draw from supernatural beings, your own power, nature etc. Unless you're not understanding how magic works? Also, it's close to the roots of demons according to the guidebook, just like Flauros. The definition of "black magic" in occultism of the Western eras was usage of demons, and Flauros itself is from the Goetia. So it's not from the realm of impossibility. It also means they had foreknowledge of the occult and I thought it was fairly obvious in SH1 that the Order had been into the occult for years.


Quote:
Ghosts are minds, which are bundles of thought. Those who die in the Otherworld don't get to leave, according to SH4.


Where?

Quote:

Excuse me, but what does the existence of an actual deity have to do with the existence of a false one?


Because if it’s “false” it is NOT the deity. It is a faux deity. Either said deity doesn’t exist, as No God is on the otherworld altar area, or the deity does exist and this one isn’t it. In order for something to be “fake” or “false” something else has to be “real” and “truth”, they’re not mutually exclusice.



Quote:
And the Woman in White and the Incubus are the same deity, just in different forms. Whether that deity is real, false, etcetera doesn't matter, they're the same entity.


The incubator and the incubus are not the same thing. Lost Memories made that pretty clear.

Quote:

Can you point to the exact page? I remember reading this about God, but not Valtiel.


Quote:
In the long-standing religious tradition of Silent Hill, Valtiel is worshipped
as a being that is close to God. And so even in the previous works of the
series, Valtiel has appeared in different forms. In other words this is why
Valtiel ties together various events that have taken place in Silent Hill.

In the case that any events transpire in Silent Hill in the future, Valtiel
may again appear before players in another form.



Taken from "The Magician card".

_________________
Image"Lowlifes... Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one you've condemned for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now?"


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Corva09_im wrote:
That's ok. But what would be the real question then? If the rock has powers in someone's Otherworld, or if it own them in the real world?
Because what I said was in relation to the real world, not in the otherworld or the world created by Walter.

The natives who worshiped the rock lived in the real world, not in the Otherworld. At least I think so.

I don't know. People have theorized that...
SH2 Spoilers
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Maria wouldn't exist outside of the otherworld...


so perhaps the Mother Stone's supposed power wouldn't work outside of the otherworld either. But then again, we have seen influences occurring in the real world as well, such as...

SH1 and SH3 Spoilers
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Cheryl and Heather's existences.

But then, those examples are completely different in nature, so who knows.

Edea wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
The thing is, Heather was the one creating the world in SH3, not Vincent. Your entire argument is flawed, here. I'd consider revising it.


I never said Vincent created the world and in retrospect have no idea what your point is since I didn't say that. To imply such and that I said such because I said Heather used it incorrectly is a flawed argument in itself.


I think Aura's point is that, even though Vincent believed in the crest, it wasn't his otherworld, so his beliefs don't matter. It's Heather's belief, or lack of, that would affect the crest.

Edea wrote:
This is more of a ritual, or high magic. Sigil magic is not you "simply draw a sigil and it works", it's much more complicated than that.


In this instance, there's very little difference to a ritual/high magic, or sigil magic as things in the otherworld are based on thought, dreams, and the subconscious. There are many things in each otherworld to suggest such things, so whether or not a ritual or whatnot works would be similar.

Edea wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
As for Alessa's and Claudia's psychic powers, well...isn't psychic power just the ability to do things with your mind? To make your thoughts reality?


Yes, but it doesn't explain other characters. I.e. James.

Explain what about other characters? Their influence over their own otherworlds? That's already been explained.

Edea wrote:
It also means they had foreknowledge of the occult and I thought it was fairly obvious in SH1 that the Order had been into the occult for years.


I don't mean this to be rude as I mean it as nothing more than a statement, but no shit. That's like saying SH is a series of horror games.

Edea wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
Ghosts are minds, which are bundles of thought. Those who die in the Otherworld don't get to leave, according to SH4.


Where?

Cynthia, Joseph, Braintree, etc, etc.

Edea wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
Excuse me, but what does the existence of an actual deity have to do with the existence of a false one?


Because if it’s “false” it is NOT the deity. It is a faux deity. Either said deity doesn’t exist, as No God is on the otherworld altar area, or the deity does exist and this one isn’t it. In order for something to be “fake” or “false” something else has to be “real” and “truth”, they’re not mutually exclusice.

That's assuming that there really is a God or God like entity in or around SH. There's no definitive proof either way. For all we know, the different forms of God we have seen could be the real deal, or they could just be even more powerful delusions.

Edea wrote:

I'm going what the guidebook says and the Valtiel's form changes depending on who sees it so that doesn't prove it has any relevence to the order.

He has appeared in many forms, yes, but that doesn't change the fact he had the crest tattooed on his arm/s in that particular occurrence, which, like I said, suggests it is important. Heather is creating the otheworld in 3, along with some influence from Alessa. Alessa would have known all sorts of things about The Order's beliefs, including descriptions of their angels (of which Valtiel is supposed to be one), as well as anything else that is important to The Order. So, Valtiel having the crest suggests it is not irrelevant to The Order. On top of that, Leonard, a religious zealot, had the crest with him. Sure, the item itself was junk, but why would a religious zealot have something that is unimportant? Generally religious zealots are very protective etc of icons/items from their religions because said icons/items are an important part of their beliefs.

Edea wrote:
Heather had no belief using that incantation to kill a monster, Claudia is mostly unaware she has power over peoples' hearts, and this doesn't explain Alessa's power at all.

Heather just read a book about a girl vanquishing a monster using an incantation. Heather repeated the incantation while thinking about the story where it vanquishes a monster. It's not that much of a stretch to conclude that the monster disappeared simply because she was thinking about how said incantation worked in the story.

Edea wrote:
(Or Claudia's power, "sight".) Nor does it explain why magic works outside of the context of the otherworld, as the cult has been using it to kill people for awhile. Given the evidence there's more to SH than belief = reality. If there wasn't Maria wouldn't be able to see/hear ghosts.

I said, either here or somewhere else in another recent conversation with you, that I believe there is more to the power around Silent Hill and Toluca Lake than just something that can make stuff from thought and beliefs. That, however, does seem to be how the otherworld works. Seeing as it has been described by someone who worked on the story as being something along the lines of a world of dreams (ie; something to do with the mind), it's fair to assume that anything in the otherworld works based on thought. As for how and why things work outside of the otherworld; things that work outside of the otherworld have originated in Silent Hill/around Toluca Lake. I wouldn't be surprised if some people were able to retain some of the area's power, to be used where-ever they go.

Edea wrote:
I dunno the debates surrounding Travis, so I'll leave that out.

Supposedly he dreamed the whole fight as we only see it after he falls to the ground after being caught up in a puff of suspicious smoke. I haven't really taken enough notice of this scene to really have much of an opinion on it either way. I need to replay 0rigins, but can't be bothered recharging my PSP.

Edea wrote:
Even tho you can use that argument it doesn't explain or make Claudia and Dahlia any less delusional about God. Whereas the game doesn't do that for Alessa. Now, for the false belief to work either there's no God or that is not God at all. This is why people theorize the Woman in White to be the actual God since she looks normal and is not a delusion that's being projected. It's the power of deduction really.

How are Claudia and Dahlia's view of God delusional?


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: The mother stone, Nahkeehona?
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I never said Vincent created the world and in retrospect have no idea what your point is since I didn't say that. To imply such and that I said such because I said Heather used it incorrectly is a flawed argument in itself.


I was just indicating that Vincent's thoughts do not dictate reality, so I don't know why you brought him into the argument.

Quote:
Yes, but it doesn't explain other characters. I.e. James.


James doesn't make things happen in the real world. What's your point?

Quote:
On the contrary where does it say Alessa helped? I remember Dahlia asking to use Alessa's power but there was no such statement it was going to be used to kill people and although Heather says "she could kill just by wishing for it" it makes no reference to the Order killing anyone using Alessa.


Silent Hill 3. Alessa could kill people with her mind.

Quote:
Magic drawn from the God makes sense, because that's the very definiton of magic. You draw from supernatural beings, your own power, nature etc. Unless you're not understanding how magic works? Also, it's close to the roots of demons according to the guidebook, just like Flauros. The definition of "black magic" in occultism of the Western eras was usage of demons, and Flauros itself is from the Goetia. So it's not from the realm of impossibility. It also means they had foreknowledge of the occult and I thought it was fairly obvious in SH1 that the Order had been into the occult for years.


You are, of course, making the assumption that magic is a real thing in the Silent Hill universe. We could be dealing with a more Lovecraftian setting where people are messing with a force they don't really understand, and use their meaningless rituals to codify the patterns they've noticed.

Quote:
Where?


"Anyone swallowed up by that world
will live there for eternity, undying.
They will haunt that realm as a spirit.
How can our Lord forgive such an
abomination...?
"

Quote:
Because if it’s “false” it is NOT the deity. It is a faux deity. Either said deity doesn’t exist, as No God is on the otherworld altar area, or the deity does exist and this one isn’t it. In order for something to be “fake” or “false” something else has to be “real” and “truth”, they’re not mutually exclusice.


Says you. A deity is merely something that is believed in and worshipped, and in the Otherworld, false things take on a real form. Ergo, Alessa can give birth to a real god based off of false beliefs.

Quote:
The incubator and the incubus are not the same thing. Lost Memories made that pretty clear.


Yea, it says that one is Alessa's vision of God, and the other is Dahlia's. But they're both God.

Quote:

Taken from "The Magician card".


Yea, except that's not what the passage says. You said that Valtiel appears differently to everyone who sees him. This says he's only appeared in different forms before in the series, and can appear to players again in a different form. Those are two entirely different concepts with only superficial similarities.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: