Same person, different face. (spoilers)

[Anonymous]

That and Self-Image.


Though neither is really mutually exclusive with Krist's theory.

[Anonymous]

Let's reference some stuff way over Raithien's head and not explain it.

Yeah, so...do go on.

[amphreded]

Let's reference some stuff way over Raithien's head and not explain it.

Yeah, so...do go on.

Haha, sorry. Well, Kauser is referring to a rather well-known psychologist: Carl Jung. He pioneers in many branches of theories such as the Collective Unconcious, Archetype, Anima/Animus.

Here let me link you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_jung

[Mis Krist.]

Is it? Truthfully.. I know nothing too indepth about Jung's theories. (Courtesy of my basic public high school half-year psychology course education.) Many thanks for the link.

[amphreded]

Well Walter is a character who is definitely applicable to Jungian story. Carl Jung always refers to dualism or pluralism (multiple personalities, based on the unconscious), so it is quite cognitive to relate Jungian theory with Walter's split personality.
To me, I always feel Jungian theory is rather 'broad' and it can almost be applied to all human beings. I'm not too knowledgable on Jungian theory myself, but:

Evil Walter and Innocent Walter - The Shadow Theory (opposite personality)
Little Walter and Adult Walter - sennex complex (physically young but acting old) and puer (youthful self, even though you're old)
Harry's Feminity - Anima (female unconcious of the male)
Henry being "introverted"

We also see a lot of archetypes: the protagonist being a "Hero" archetype. God being the "Super-human", Richard as a "Bully", Little Walter as a "Child", Vincent as a "Trickster", etc.

However, like I have said, Jungian theory is now pretty "embedded" in our language, so there's no need to discuss much about it. When we say "Split personality", we are basically talking about "Shadow". When we say "that little kid doesn't act his age", we are talking a mild sennex complex.
Of course, Jungian theories are much more deeper from what I wrote, but the words like 'complex', 'introvert-extrovert', 'archetype' are basically derived from Jung. And we all have a general idea of what those words mean.

[Skele]

I agree with the innocent/diabolical theory, but i don't agree that they both exist as one and that whichever personality is strongest at the time, that's the one that shows up.

i think they're both 2 halves of one spirit or whatever the heck Walter is, and they both exist in Walters world and aren't one in the same. It explains why when Henry kills the Adult Walter, the little boy one dies while he's banging on Eileens door.

anyhow, nice theory tho

[Anonymous]

Hmm, I don't think that the two are interchangable. They're both walter but I think theres a split between them. I've only played sh4 once but it was a week ago so its still fresh. After Eileen is attacked and we find the little walter standing over her, If I'm not mistaken she says that he saved her right? I think that up until that point the two walters have been avoiding eachother. Older Walter is busy trying to catch up on the sacraments and probably is weary of his youngerself because if anyone else is capable of interfering with him it would be himself, he wants to wait until its time to he needs young walter. He knows that the young walter doesn't understand the diff between his mother and the mother god, and if he caught on he might lash out. I'm not sure if the walter split happened after walter died in the room or if young walter is more like a psychic imprint that is more location based then walter based that manifests. lIke the youngwalter "ghost" being created by walter as a child desparetly returning to the building trying to reunite with his "mother." I think the young walter is created by the old walters mind, but he has no control over it. Sorry if that seems jumbled or contradictory but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it myself.

[Biomechanical]

Well, It's a decent theory (if not very convoluted), but I'm gonna have to disagree with a few points. While Walter can change form at his discretion, I think that, in his own head, he is always a child. Due to his abandonment and abuse as a child, he never completely grew up. He views adults as big, mean, intimidating, so he takes that form whenever he needs to be scary or strong or do something bad. Perhaps it explains the Richard situation. He could beat up and subdue Richard as an adult, and then when he was helpless, Walter could change back to his true (child) form to finish him off.

And for the comment of another poster (I forget who), If you remember the text of the 21 sacraments ritual, it didn't say that the conjuror will get disembodied, or freed from their body, it said that they would gain a new body. Maybe Walter chose the form of his new body, as that of his child self (reflecting how he still feels on the inside)

[Silent Milance]

>One thing I feel is that the Little Walter while he is innocent, he is not 'loving'. He simply doesn't care about Cynthia, Richard, Jasper, or Andrew. He only feels affection towards Eileen, thus Eileen is the only one that Little Walter interfers Adult Walter. Little Walter does not a sense morality, he only loves people who had treated him with love before (hence, only Eileen).
I agree with this completely.

I read this one thing somewhere. Little Walter is selfish. He says thins like "I", "let ME in", "MY mom" etc. in every single line he says. He only thinks of himslef and HIS wish to find his mother. Adult Walter, on the other hand, takes Little Walter away from Building world almost like he is saying: "Come, little one, I'm finishing the Ritual and you will se YOUR mommy" (my thought). In the 21 Sacraments ending, Little Walter is happy that his wish finally came true, Adult Walter is just standing and watching.

I'm saying, almost as if Adult Walter wasn't performing the ritual for himself, but for Little Walter (he thought of someone else), and Little Walter thought only of himself. He only saved Eileen because she was nice to HIM.

Simplified, it can be said like this: Little Walter is the "Master mind", Adult Walter just "works" for Little Walter.

Kinda makes you wonder which Walter is good... (I still may be wrong)

[Ataricollector1982]

I disagree. I think that Little Walter is evil. When Henry walked in on Richard, he said,"That's no kid." I think that Little Walter killed him somehow.

[JuriDawn]

I disagree. I think that Little Walter is evil. When Henry walked in on Richard, he said,"That's no kid." I think that Little Walter killed him somehow.

That, or Richard witnessed Big Walter changing into Little Walter and is therefore aware of his dual nature. I just can't imagine Lil' Wally forcing an adult into an electric chair, much less committing murder at all.

[swedish]

Couple of questions:

How come "Lil' Wally" is never seen period in the Subway world? Is there some sort of relationship between Henry seeing Little Walter in the rest of the worlds, but not the Subway world? If I recall, the Subway is where Walter met Cynthia and Eileen.

If the same Lil' Wally can stare down Andrew DeSalvo, why does he seem to run away in panic when Jasper Gein sees him and goes off about the devil or something (can't remember what he says)?

[The Adversary]

>How come "Lil' Wally" is never seen period in the Subway world?
I don't think it really matters. He didn't have any reason to show up there--it's also to introduce gun-totin' Walter Sullivan anyway.

>If the same Lil' Wally can stare down Andrew DeSalvo, why does he seem to run away in panic
Well, Lil' Wally knows Andrew. And he hates him. And he wishes he were dead. Lil' Wally knows what's coming to him. Walter hadn't met Jasper Gein until he was twenty-four, so it's just another stranger blurting random crap at a little kid--Henry was at least being affable.

[Mis Krist.]

I disagree. I think that Little Walter is evil. When Henry walked in on Richard, he said,"That's no kid." I think that Little Walter killed him somehow.

Uh, yeah. That's because Richard knew he was the 11121 man. Saying "that's no kid," doesn't mean he's.. evil. It just means that the child is really Walter Sullivan.

[swedish]

So let me get this straight Krist; originally, Lil' Wally and Evil Walter were manifested into one single being, but with split personalities. So did they split up into two pure and seperate beings after the incident with Eileen?

[lain of the wired]

Lil' Wally is also a manifestation of Walter's own innocence within Walter's world, too, so technically he really isn't a kid, or even human, is he now?

Remember when Lil' Wally shows up in your closet as an evil little black thing that cuts your health to ribbons? I figure Andrew and Dick Tree were seeing him as that evil pulsing thing, and that's why he was so scary to them...

Anyways, well put theory, Krist., albeit a long one. Couldn't have put it better.

[Keeva]

OK Krist. I'm with you so far but there are a few things that keep nagging me:

1) The doll- There were a few theories about the doll; one being that Walter giving up the doll is symbolic of him giving up his feelings for Eileen, so he could freely hunt her. Another is that since Eileen has shown compassion and gave Walter the doll, she was ultimately chosen. I have an alternate theory: The doll is symbolic of the malice and deep seeded hatred that is burning in Walter. Think about it: As soon as you stick that damn thing in the chest, your place becomes haunted. You keep on your person, and soon enough Eileen becomes haunted. I think the compassion that Walter once had was embodied in that doll; however, while in the "tender care" of The Order, Walter becomes a bitter, spiteful, vindictive young man. Considering what the ultimate goal of The Order is, I'm surprised young Walter didn't go completely insane and kill countless people. But The Order's malice and religious fervor rubbed off on him, and he set out to bring Samael into the world. He figured he would do what The Order has failed to do. So off he goes on his task of killing 21 people. The innocent Walter is gone, never to return. The doll that was once symbolic of all that is pure and innocent became symbolic of the terrible evil that humanity is capable of accomplishing. So, he tries to give the doll to his would-be 21st victim: Henry. As for why he didn't finish Eileen off when he was there, I think he thought that she could be of some use to him after all. Maybe she could deliver herself AND Henry to Walter with pretty bows on their heads . Victims 20-Eileen, and 21-Henry would fall right into his lap with minimal effort.

2) After Richard dies a most horrible death, "Little" Walter is seen pointing at Eileen's room. Well, given what has happened to him and what he has done, I don't think he's so little. Little is usually a term given to kids, who are, for the MOST part, innocent. They wouldn't think of standing unblinking, watching people die from immolation or electricution, two very awful means of dying. No, Walter is child-like in appearance, but he is anything but a child.

3) The mascot- What about that spooky rabbit? When Cynthia died(I believe it was Cynthia,) you saw the rabbit balloon floating outside. Whenever someone else died, the mascot's position changed. Hell, that damn thing looked dead at YOU when you reached the point where you were ready to leave 302. It was no fluke; it was pointing right at YOU and noone else. Whenever that thing looked in a direction, death followed.

Of course, this is all just speculation. Everybody has their own interpretation of events in the games. I'm sorry if this didn't make sense, but it does to me.

[AuraTwilight]

1) Well first off, there's no such thing as Samael. But I digress. The whole thing with Eileen is that Lil' Wally spared her at the last minute, so that leg of the game is Walter hunting her.

2) Well, yea. He's basically a Shinentai/Tulpa/Anima of Walter's psyche. He's not even a material existence.

3) Yea. I'm hoping Robbie the Rabbit becomes a continuing trend ^^

[The Adversary]

>Whenever someone else died, the mascot's position changed.
Incorrect. The only time Robbie the Rabbit moves is after Eileen is attacked--and his position change is an obvious "You're next."

[Keeva]

Robbie? That's it's name? I played all 4 games, but I don't recall it being given a name other than "The Mascot." Anyway, I played the game again, and it did move. Granted not EVERY time like I previously that(sorry for the blunder) but it still moved and death eventually occured.

1) As for Samael, it existed in the 1st game, hence the final boss battle. It's just the name Konami gave the demon god in the first game, so I used that name instead of "Unknown Demon." But the name isn't important. I still think Walter wanted to do what The Order has faildedto do- bring that demon forth, WHATEVER it's name is. Maybe it's his subconscious trying to do it to spite The Order. Or maybe it's just that he truly believes that it is for the betterment of humanity to bring the demon forth- an attitude that Claudia once had. Or maybe he was doing it for more selfish reasons; namely: He wanted power, just like Vergil in DMC. I don't know.

2) I wasn't debating the nature of his being there. I was simply pointing out that "Little" Walter is an accomplice to mass murder, and therefore, not so little. But some people brought up some interesting thoughts(yes, that means you too, Aura): It is just one part of Walter's psyche. At this point, I would tend to agree, but the obvious question is : HOW is Walter's "younger self" able to be in one spot, while the mortal shell is elsewhere? Can Walter somehow engage in astral projection? Maybe it's some kind of mental ability that we cannot currently use(maybe when we evolve into our next form.) THAT would be interesting. But if it IS indeed astral projection, then why is it a younger form of Walter and not Mass Murderer Walter? Unless he can somehow CHOOSE the form to project. Oops! Sorry about the blabbering. As you may be able to tell, I get swept up into intellectual matters, especially what we may soon become. But enough about that.

3) I don't knwo what is up with that thing, but it gives me the creeps. NO mascot should have BLOOD around it's face. Maybe that was Konami's intention though. Put you off edge as soon as you see that damn thing.