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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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We know from Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle that Valtiel, like r.p.t., is considered an executioner and judge figure in the Order's belief system. By applying that knowledge, we can ascertain Valtiel's role in Walter's subconscious: to act as the judge for the victims Walter selects. The first part of the ritual, the Ten Sinners, is the only one in which Valtiel is mentioned. After it's done, and Walter releases himself from the bonds of the flesh, Valtiel leaves his subconscious because it is no longer needed.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

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The Adversary wrote:
We know from Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle that Valtiel, like r.p.t., is considered an executioner and judge figure in the Order's belief system.

At least in the Valtiel-Sect, yes. We don't know whether Valtiel is even considered important in the Holy Woman or Holy Mother branch.
Actually if we consider that the Red Tome was, as Joseph Schreiber assumed, a plot by the Holy Woman sect against the Descent of the Holy Mother, then inserting Valtiel into the Conjurer's subconscious realm could be a plot by the Valtiel branch. We can't really "ascertain" Valtiel's role in the mix because it is not made clear on who's behalf Jimmy Stone was acting here, we can all only assume.

Quote:
The first part of the ritual, the Ten Sinners, is the only one in which Valtiel is mentioned.

Where is Valtiel ever mentioned in the ritual?

Quote:
After it's done, and Walter releases himself from the bonds of the flesh, Valtiel leaves his subconscious because it is no longer needed.

Actually, being in the realm of his subconscious and Walter basically becoming nothing more than a personification of his subconscious and the worlds we travel also being created from Walter's mind...shouldn't exactly this be where Valtiel is?
Why should he leave?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
At least in the Valtiel-Sect, yes. We don't know whether Valtiel is even considered important in the Holy Woman or Holy Mother branch.


Judging by his veneration by Claudia's branch of the church, I'd say he is.

Quote:
Why should he leave?


Because he did his job. Valtiel has other places to be and other things to do.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

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AuraTwilight wrote:
Judging by his veneration by Claudia's branch of the church, I'd say he is.

True, I forgot he is an angel in the canon of the Holy Woman sect. Sorry 'bout that.

Quote:
Because he did his job. Valtiel has other places to be and other things to do.
[/quote]
But show me any proof where it is stated that he left, that he had a job in the ritual, that he has "other places to be". And no, the answer "it's obvious" does not count.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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He's the god of metempsychosis, so yea, he has other places to be. Adversary already gave you a citation, I'm pretty sure, on the other points.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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I wouldn't call Valtiel the god of metempsychosis. Mostly because it's an angel, not a god.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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An angel called the Yellow God, though; but ultimately it's kind of a semantics issue. Choirs of Angels are basically pantheons of lesser deities for monotheism in many respects.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
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AuraTwilight wrote:
An angel called the Yellow God, though; but ultimately it's kind of a semantics issue. Choirs of Angels are basically pantheons of lesser deities for monotheism in many respects.

While I would agree about angels basically being lesser gods in a religion that tries to be monotheistic or turns to such a state, it has never been stated that Valtiel is either Lobsel Vith nor Xuchilbara. If anything he would rather be the second as the god of rebirth described in The Crimson Ceremony is "The Crimson One" and also the Valtiel sect uses red as their primary colour. It would be rather strange if nothing about the Yellow God was actually yellow.

Another thing that caught my eye when thinking about this is, that it was made clear that Walter was not the only one raised to become a Conjurer, basically all the children in Wish House were raised as such to ensure the rituals success. So it is not unlikely that George Rosten "let Valtiel sneak into the unconscious domain" of many children. If Valtiel can be in many people at once, he should be able to be in many places at once,

And yet another thing, I noticed a little mistake, when people say that Valtiel was brought into Walters subconscious this is wrong. The original text is muishiki ryouiki (無意識領域), which is the unconscious domain. The subconscious (kaishiki 下意識 in Japanese) unconscious are two completely different things. The Subconscious are things that are not actually on our conscious mind, but can be accessed at will (memories, feelings, etc.). The Unconscious on the other hand is inaccessible and can only be tapped into by outside stimuli (like traumata, phobia, etc.).
This means that Valtiel and what he stands for was so deeply anchored into Walters psyche that he would act on it without actually knowing what he did.

There's also another aspect of the ritual that was often discussed and I thought about. Again, don't know if it was discussed somewhere else already, didn't find anything, if yes, tell me please.

Joseph Schreiber questioned whether the Walter who died in prison was actually Sullivan or somebody who had been mistaken for him, I'd argue it really was not the real Walter. In the Japanese original text of the 21 Sacraments it is mentioned that as a last step for the Ritual of Assumption (in the original Ritual of Liberation 解放の儀式) the Conjurer/Practitioner would have to offer up his own blood along with the White Oil and the blood from the Ten Hearts of Sin. Due to this that person would be "freed from the shackles of the flesh" and "gain the powers of the second world (二位の国)", thus Walters unaging and undying double, described in the Crimson Tome as "the Practitioners Idol" (術者の偶像), took form. It could be argued that from this point on this was no longer Walter Sullivan himself, but simply a supernaturally formed copy with the ritual as it's only goal. The actual Walter Sullivans consciousness would appear as the small child Walter, who is trying to warn people about what is going to come. We know that 10 years ago the man in the coat appeared in South Ashfield Heights carrying a bag dripping blood, an old-fashioned bowl (probably the Black Cup) and heavy tools. He apparently broke into the empty #302 and vanished. So there are two possible chains of events.

1) Walter collected the 10 hearts, was imprisoned, killed himself in prison, revived and then carried out the ritual in room #302.

2) Walter first carried out the ritual in #302 and what was caught by the police was actually the Idol or a substitute which was provided by cult members who wanted the ritual to succeed.

I lean heavily towards the second interpretation and would argue that confusion is mainly caused because of ambiguous text. The bloody bag in the superintendents diary wouldn't be a corpse bag as they are non-purous and it is also unlikely that Walter would be able to carry a whole corpse in a bag along with the Black Cup and an assortment of tools. Rather I'd say this was actually only a small bag containing the Ten Hearts of Sin. This is important because of a line that was left out of the English translation of the scripture, "And the Lord said, together with the White Oil and the blood from Ten Hearts, offer up your own blood as well" (主曰く、汝白の油と十の心臓の生き血と共に、自らの血を奉納せよ), which would require Walter to have access to the Black Cup, the White Oil and the Ten Hearts when he offered his own blood, only then could he actually ascend to the second world and loose the shackles of the flesh, Walter couldn't have had those when he was imprisoned. Also he was imprisoned at least 18 days after his crime, as it said in the article in SH2 that Walter was arrested on the 18th of "this month" (while the child-murders are dated February), and only killed himself on the 22nd of the month of his incarceration; at least a month after his first murder the blood from Jimmy Stones heart would likely have gone if not properly preserved and the ritual seems to call for fresh blood (which would also explain Walters urgency). Thus I would argue that after killing the first 10 he took the hearts and the other ingredients to romm #302 and carried out the ritual of Liberation in the storage room. The Idol formed and Walters real body remained in the place he had carried out the ritual; it is not unlikely that he closed up the door beforehand but the Idol was no longer limited to this realm.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
The subconscious (kaishiki 下意識 in Japanese) unconscious are two completely different things.


Not in professional psychology, they're not.

Quote:
While I would agree about angels basically being lesser gods in a religion that tries to be monotheistic or turns to such a state, it has never been stated that Valtiel is either Lobsel Vith nor Xuchilbara.


Derp, this is just me having poor memory. For some reason I was thinking Valtiel instead of Lobsel Vith was mentioned.

Either way, angels and subservient deities are basically the same thing, and should both qualify as "divine".

Quote:
Another thing that caught my eye when thinking about this is, that it was made clear that Walter was not the only one raised to become a Conjurer, basically all the children in Wish House were raised as such to ensure the rituals success. So it is not unlikely that George Rosten "let Valtiel sneak into the unconscious domain" of many children. If Valtiel can be in many people at once, he should be able to be in many places at once,


Are you sure about this? Maybe Walter was just the single child chosen to be the most successful of all the others. He is specifically noted to have "a potential greater than Alessa's", whatever that means.

Quote:
It could be argued that from this point on this was no longer Walter Sullivan himself, but simply a supernaturally formed copy with the ritual as it's only goal. The actual Walter Sullivans consciousness would appear as the small child Walter, who is trying to warn people about what is going to come.


Uh...what? Where are you getting this? What gives this idea more credibility than the "soul divide" idea that's been assumed for years? It's not like there isn't precedent and support for it.

Quote:
He apparently broke into the empty #302 and vanished. So there are two possible chains of events.

1) Walter collected the 10 hearts, was imprisoned, killed himself in prison, revived and then carried out the ritual in room #302.

2) Walter first carried out the ritual in #302 and what was caught by the police was actually the Idol or a substitute which was provided by cult members who wanted the ritual to succeed.


You're neglecting the implication that Walter was already divided into two people by the time he was in jail.

Quote:
The bloody bag in the superintendents diary wouldn't be a corpse bag as they are non-purous and it is also unlikely that Walter would be able to carry a whole corpse in a bag along with the Black Cup and an assortment of tools.


This assumes that Walter would go through the trouble of getting a proper body bag instead of a random sack. And dragging a corpse while carrying tools isn't that difficult.

Quote:
which would require Walter to have access to the Black Cup, the White Oil and the Ten Hearts when he offered his own blood, only then could he actually ascend to the second world and loose the shackles of the flesh, Walter couldn't have had those when he was imprisoned.


There's no problem if Walter kept his possessions safely stored and preserved somewhere else.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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chounokoe wrote:
We can't really "ascertain" Valtiel's role in the mix because it is not made clear on who's behalf Jimmy Stone was acting here, we can all only assume.

chounokoe wrote:
But show me any proof where it is stated that he left, that he had a job in the ritual, that he has "other places to be".

This might answer your ambiguities:
Translated Memories wrote:
Jimmy Stone created and became a priest of the Valtiel sect to mediate between the Holy Mother sect and the Saint Ladies sect.

Basically, the Valtiel sect (closest to God) weren't the orthodox community as the other two. Dahlia thought things should work her way and no one else's, whatsoever. Walter's sect was also very committed in doing things their way. However, it seems that the Valtiel sect, roughly said, didn't care what way God was created, as long as someone did it. If you wish, the Valtiel sect acts in parallel with the image of Valtiel itself. In SH3 Valtiel is not the one that will birth God itself, instead, it will use Heather to do it. That way acts the Valtiel sect. The Valtiel sect won't be the one to bring God to earth, it will be the one to use the other two sects to perform the job, as it can be interpreted from the cause of the sect's formation.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

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AuraTwilight wrote:
Not in professional psychology, they're not.

I think what you mean is that in modern psychology the idea of Freud's structure of the mind is often completely disregarded as it is hardly provable; thus the idea of two of the 3 levels (subconscious, unconscious) is denied.
You would have to show me a professional psychologist or psychoanalyst who actually uses the terms interchangeably, I really don't know any.

Quote:
Are you sure about this? Maybe Walter was just the single child chosen to be the most successful of all the others. He is specifically noted to have "a potential greater than Alessa's", whatever that means.

That is very possible and it could be that he was the only one who was "opened" towards Valtiel. And you know what? You actually brought me to a very important thing, namely a harsh translation mistake done in the profile of Sein Martin. It reads:
One day they overheard a conversation about someone being compared to the "Holy Mother" but who could also be a devil from a church in Silent Hill. They heard them say this person was now at Pleasant River University.
Sorry to whoever made the translation, but it's not correct at all. The original says:
One day, at the church in Silent Hill, he accidentally overheard a conversation with a man who seemed to be a priest and was fascinated by it. He said that, right now at the university, there was apparently a being that surpassed the talent of the Holy Woman and could be able to become the Devil. (ある日、彼らはサイレントヒルの教会で、偶然、耳に入ってきた司祭風の男性の会話に心を奪われる。それは聖女を越える逸材、悪魔になりうる存在についての話であり、今は大学にいるという。)
I don't even know how Holy Woman and Holy Mother got confused here. But depending on who this priest was this leaves us with many different possibilities I think. And again the question, who was working for what goal here?

Quote:
Uh...what? Where are you getting this? What gives this idea more credibility than the "soul divide" idea that's been assumed for years? It's not like there isn't precedent and support for it.

Well the main point why I am against the classical soul divide is
a) The being that appears as the 24 year old Walter is clearly said to be "The Conjurers Idol/Effigy".
b) Schreiber implying that after he completed the ritual of Liberation something changed and he became a simple killing-machine.
I don't disagree with the soul divide completely, as I think that the Idol carries Walter's memories as well, but I think he acts out of his own motivation as well.

Quote:
You're neglecting the implication that Walter was already divided into two people by the time he was in jail.

I did? No, I said that he completed the ritual before he was imprisoned, but that would necessarily place his actual body in room #302.

Quote:
There's no problem if Walter kept his possessions safely stored and preserved somewhere else.

What I am getting at here is, that if it was the real Walter who killed himself n prison, his blood would have been lost and he would not be able to mix it with the White Oil and the blood from the Ten Hearts in the Black Cup. It was clearly stated he killed himself with his spoon in his cell. Even a cunning master criminal would have a hard time managing to sneak 10 blood-dripping hearts, an ancient cup and a bottle of unidentified white oil into his cell.
This would also mean that at least for 4 days (his arrest on the 18th and his suicide on the 22nd) these items would have been in his cell.

mikefile wrote:
This might answer your ambiguities:

No, actually it doesn't.
After thinking things through I might agree that it is very likely that the being called Valtiel is aiding in the birth of it's master under whatever name there might be. Though it is questionable, if that was actually true, how would the Valtiel sect be accepted as a mediator between two sects, if their stance is simply, "Come on guys, let it go, you're praying to the bloody same deity!".
That would be like using such a mediator between Christianity and Islam. But I could manage to accept this as an oversight on the writers part, because it really goes into speculative areas.

But your quote does not concern the questions I raised. It is simply stating that Jimmy Stones position in the Order as head of the Valtiel sect was that of a mediator between the opposing fractions of Holy Woman and Holy Mother. Even if we believe, as said above, that Valtiel aided that beings birth under any given name and ceremony, this does not regard Valtiels role in the ritual itself.
What I was questioning was the notion that there was ever a hint that Valtiel left Walters unconscious, that he had other duties or that he was limited like that at all.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
I think what you mean is that in modern psychology the idea of Freud's structure of the mind is often completely disregarded as it is hardly provable; thus the idea of two of the 3 levels (subconscious, unconscious) is denied.
You would have to show me a professional psychologist or psychoanalyst who actually uses the terms interchangeably, I really don't know any.


Uh...Freud has nothing to do with it. But professional psychologists usually don't use the term 'subconscious' at all, and it's basically only a layman's term, such as when everyday people say 'theory' when they mean 'hypothesis.'

Quote:
Well the main point why I am against the classical soul divide is
a) The being that appears as the 24 year old Walter is clearly said to be "The Conjurers Idol/Effigy".
b) Schreiber implying that after he completed the ritual of Liberation something changed and he became a simple killing-machine.
I don't disagree with the soul divide completely, as I think that the Idol carries Walter's memories as well, but I think he acts out of his own motivation as well.


A) You keep saying this, but where are you getting it?
B) That Walter's adult self is basically a killing machine doesn't necessarily tell us anything meta-physically. Especially since Young Walter seems to be the emotional core of his being.

Quote:
I did? No, I said that he completed the ritual before he was imprisoned, but that would necessarily place his actual body in room #302.


This isn't possible. The ritual can't be performed before his imprisonment, or he'd of already been freed from the bonds of the flesh.

Quote:
What I am getting at here is, that if it was the real Walter who killed himself n prison, his blood would have been lost and he would not be able to mix it with the White Oil and the blood from the Ten Hearts in the Black Cup. It was clearly stated he killed himself with his spoon in his cell. Even a cunning master criminal would have a hard time managing to sneak 10 blood-dripping hearts, an ancient cup and a bottle of unidentified white oil into his cell.
This would also mean that at least for 4 days (his arrest on the 18th and his suicide on the 22nd) these items would have been in his cell.


You're supposing quite a lot, here. If Walter is already divided, for instance (As Walter's words in prison imply), then the Walter that isn't imprisoned already has all of these problems taken care of.

Quote:
No, actually it doesn't.
After thinking things through I might agree that it is very likely that the being called Valtiel is aiding in the birth of it's master under whatever name there might be. Though it is questionable, if that was actually true, how would the Valtiel sect be accepted as a mediator between two sects, if their stance is simply, "Come on guys, let it go, you're praying to the bloody same deity!".
That would be like using such a mediator between Christianity and Islam. But I could manage to accept this as an oversight on the writers part, because it really goes into speculative areas.


Er...no. It's like a mediator between the Catholic and Protestant Churchs, which can and do exist (There's plenty of "Universalist" or "Reconciliation" Christian churchs)

Quote:
But your quote does not concern the questions I raised. It is simply stating that Jimmy Stones position in the Order as head of the Valtiel sect was that of a mediator between the opposing fractions of Holy Woman and Holy Mother. Even if we believe, as said above, that Valtiel aided that beings birth under any given name and ceremony, this does not regard Valtiels role in the ritual itself.
What I was questioning was the notion that there was ever a hint that Valtiel left Walters unconscious, that he had other duties or that he was limited like that at all.


Well he's certainly not present in SH4 in any context, so if he's still in Walter's mind he'd of shown up somewhere. And if he's in Walter's unconscious, he can't be present to follow and protect Heather, which necessarily requires he left Walter's mind before this incident.

The Gods of Silent Hill are never shown to be omnipresent. Just the opposite; they lack immortality, omniscience, and omnipotent. They're lacking in many properties that are naturally assigned to deities.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
Uh...Freud has nothing to do with it. But professional psychologists usually don't use the term 'subconscious' at all, and it's basically only a layman's term, such as when everyday people say 'theory' when they mean 'hypothesis.'

Freud has everything to do with it, he created the 3-stage model, but yes, I looked it up in English (sue me for being German) and the correct translation for Freud's term is preconscious (das Vorbewusste), subconscious being the English translation of "das Unterbewusste" which was in use before Freud.
Too many terms that are thrown around.
Still the point is, "unconscious domain" is the correct translation as "sub" (Unter) implies something different to "un" (Un).

Quote:
A) You keep saying this, but where are you getting it?

The Crimson Tome:
The Holy Mother in the Descent of the Holy Mother is not an ounce a Holy Mother, the Descent of the Holy Mother is naught but the Descent of the Devil.

The 21 Sacraments are no 21 Sacraments,
rather they are the 21 Heresies.

To build further realms in the one of our Lord is nothing but the Devils worksmanship.

If thou wishes to stop the Descent of the Devil, so bury a piece of the Conjurers mothers flesh in his true flesh.

Then, take the 8 spears, Nothingness, Darkness, Gloom, Despair, Temptation, Origin, Observation and Chaos and thrust them into the Practicioner's true flesh. If this be done, the Conjurers idol shall be made flesh as us, by the power of the Lord.

(「聖母の降臨」の「聖母」とは、
「聖母」にあらず、
「聖母の降臨」の「聖母」とは、
「悪魔の降臨」にほかならず。

「21の秘跡」とは、
「21の秘跡」にあらず、
「21の秘跡」とは、
「21の反逆」にほかならず。

主の宇宙の中に、更なる宇宙を
築く事、悪魔の業にほかならず。

汝「悪魔の降臨」の阻止を望む
なれば、術者の母親の肉体の一部、
術者の真の肉体に埋めよ。

更に、
「虚無」「暗黒」「憂鬱」「絶望」
「誘惑」「起源」「監視」「混沌」
の8つの槍、術者の真の肉体に突き
刺せ。さすれば、術者の偶像の肉体
は、我が主の力のもと、我らと同種
の肉体に成り下がるであろう。)

Quote:
This isn't possible. The ritual can't be performed before his imprisonment, or he'd of already been freed from the bonds of the flesh.

That is the whole point. If he is already freed from the bonds of the flesh, then it does not matter if it was or wasn't him who was incarcerated and killed himself. If he was not yet freed, then it must have been an impostor.

Quote:
You're supposing quite a lot, here. If Walter is already divided, for instance (As Walter's words in prison imply), then the Walter that isn't imprisoned already has all of these problems taken care of.

I don't really get what you mean with "if Walter is already divided". How did he get divided and what became of the other Walter?
And which "words in prison" do you mean? If you're talking about what is quoted in the article. It is said there that he said this in the presence of his roommate in Pleasent River a while before his arrest. And the retranslated part I gave before shows that it was actually him who was supposed to turn into a devil, which is also implied in "Another Crimson Tome" in the scene with Jasper.

Quote:
Er...no. It's like a mediator between the Catholic and Protestant Churchs, which can and do exist (There's plenty of "Universalist" or "Reconciliation" Christian churchs)

I don't really think this works, because both Catholics and Protestants believe in the same God, only their ways of leading a "good Christian life" differ. It is actually rather like the Holy Woman and Holy Mother sect believed in opposite interpretations of God itself...and after what the priest said that Sein Martin overheard and what is given in the Crimson Tome, one side actually seemed to believe the others God to be the Devil.
When Joseph Schreiber found the book in the ruins of Wish House on April 10th, he actually described it as not being a scripture but actually having a harmful content. The two sides weren't simply disagreeing about how to believe, they were trying to destroy the other.

Quote:
And if he's in Walter's unconscious, he can't be present to follow and protect Heather, which necessarily requires he left Walter's mind before this incident.

The funny thing is though, that Walter did not do anything in the time that SH3 occurred. Yes, Joseph Schreiber was slowly starting to become the Giver of Wisdom, but it appears as if SH3 might have ended before Schreiber actually became locked in. His April 8th entry might even imply that this is around the time when SH3 ended. And Schreiber himself is not killed by Walter, but apparently by Jimmy Stone.
And by SH4 (which I'd put at 2003) SH3 is long in the past and Valtiel would be free to roam (even though he didn't appear to be very concerned with travelling problems in SH3).

Quote:
The Gods of Silent Hill are never shown to be omnipresent. Just the opposite; they lack immortality, omniscience, and omnipotent. They're lacking in many properties that are naturally assigned to deities.

I would agree that they are not omnipotent and seem to have certain needs to exist physically in our universe, they appear to be less bound in the unconscious domain. They also appear to possess immortality, at least God reappeared in Heather even though it had been killed by Harry. I would rather liken them to Old Ones (which would tie in with the direction that Toyama took the SIREN series) in that they are undying, but not actually completely immune to everything.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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chounokoe wrote:
Though it is questionable, if that was actually true, how would the Valtiel sect be accepted as a mediator between two sects, if their stance is simply, "Come on guys, let it go, you're praying to the bloody same deity!".
The same bloody deity, but in a different form. The God that the Saint Ladies and Holy Mother Sect are trying to create is effectively the Lord of Serpents and Reeds. However, it can be brought by different methods in different forms.

The Valtiel sect, as the sect that is the closest to God only beseeches the manifest of God, despite its form. If Valtiel is used to help the Holy Mother sect, the Holy Mother sect won't deny its act because of not being fully commited to the sect. When the Valtiel sect is used in the Holy Mother sect, it serves only the purpose of the Holy Mother sect. However, when it's done, it leaves and serves no longer the sect. It then goes on to the Saint Ladies sect to exclusively serve the Saint Ladies sect while it is needed. And I underline the last part: while Valtiel is needed it will help only [b]one[/i] sect: he's present once at a time.

AuraTwilight wrote:
And if he's in Walter's unconscious, he can't be present to follow and protect Heather, which necessarily requires he left Walter's mind before this incident.
This reasoning, although logic from one perspective, always made me wonder.. Valtiel left Walter's mind in 1991 (when he committed suicide) to be present for the events of SH3 that occurred in 2000. What does it need 9 years for?

AuraTwilight wrote:
The Gods of Silent Hill are never shown to be omnipresent. Just the opposite; they lack immortality, omniscience, and omnipotent. They're lacking in many properties that are naturally assigned to deities.
Exactly. Because Gods in Silent Hill share the same characteristics as their creators: plane mortal folks.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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The Crimson Tome:
The Holy Mother in the Descent of the Holy Mother is not an ounce a Holy Mother, the Descent of the Holy Mother is naught but the Descent of the Devil.

The 21 Sacraments are no 21 Sacraments,
rather they are the 21 Heresies.

To build further realms in the one of our Lord is nothing but the Devils worksmanship.

If thou wishes to stop the Descent of the Devil, so bury a piece of the Conjurers mothers flesh in his true flesh.

Then, take the 8 spears, Nothingness, Darkness, Gloom, Despair, Temptation, Origin, Observation and Chaos and thrust them into the Practicioner's true flesh. If this be done, the Conjurers idol shall be made flesh as us, by the power of the Lord.


And what makes you think this 'idol' is what you think it is? It being a disembodied demigod, 'idol' could be being applied in the literal, mythological sense of 'deified ghost.'

Quote:
That is the whole point. If he is already freed from the bonds of the flesh, then it does not matter if it was or wasn't him who was incarcerated and killed himself. If he was not yet freed, then it must have been an impostor.


Or his soul was already divided, meaning he was occupying two places at once without being liberated from the flesh.

You're trying to create a false dichotomy here.

Quote:
I don't really get what you mean with "if Walter is already divided". How did he get divided and what became of the other Walter?
And which "words in prison" do you mean? If you're talking about what is quoted in the article. It is said there that he said this in the presence of his roommate in Pleasent River a while before his arrest. And the retranslated part I gave before shows that it was actually him who was supposed to turn into a devil, which is also implied in "Another Crimson Tome" in the scene with Jasper.


There is significant subtle indication that Walter was divided into two halves before committing suicide, possibly as a result of his own Silent Hill adventure that we know he experienced at some point after killing the Locane children. This experience may have divided him into two individuals. Not only is there precedent for this in Alessa, but the original plan for Silent Hill would've had Mary and Maria been the same person, and James would've had a "Joseph" alternate self.

The incarcerated Walter admits that "he did it, but it wasn't me", and we also know he is in control of himself when he commits his murders.

The logical conclusion is that the incarcerated Walter did not exist as he does now at the time of the murders.

Killing himself in prison while also needing to die for the Ritual of Assumption, which is carried out in Room 302, is perfectly accounted for with this dual-Walter concept.

Quote:
I don't really think this works, because both Catholics and Protestants believe in the same God, only their ways of leading a "good Christian life" differ. It is actually rather like the Holy Woman and Holy Mother sect believed in opposite interpretations of God itself...and after what the priest said that Sein Martin overheard and what is given in the Crimson Tome, one side actually seemed to believe the others God to be the Devil.


The two sects are two parts of the same religion; they're not entirely different faiths like Christianity and Islam. Both sects believe in the same God and differ in how they believe she needs to be summoned and resurrected into the mortal world. The differences of characterizing and personifying her are a matter of individual interpretation, not church dogma.

Quote:
When Joseph Schreiber found the book in the ruins of Wish House on April 10th, he actually described it as not being a scripture but actually having a harmful content. The two sides weren't simply disagreeing about how to believe, they were trying to destroy the other.


Like how the Catholic church used to have inquisitions to kill non-Catholic Christians, causing mass exportations to the new colonies?

Add that Silent Hill was founded by colonialists for religious freedom, this version of the analogy adds a fitting dramatic irony yours doesn't.

Quote:
The funny thing is though, that Walter did not do anything in the time that SH3 occurred. Yes, Joseph Schreiber was slowly starting to become the Giver of Wisdom, but it appears as if SH3 might have ended before Schreiber actually became locked in. His April 8th entry might even imply that this is around the time when SH3 ended. And Schreiber himself is not killed by Walter, but apparently by Jimmy Stone.
And by SH4 (which I'd put at 2003) SH3 is long in the past and Valtiel would be free to roam (even though he didn't appear to be very concerned with travelling problems in SH3).


I'm not sure exactly how this is relevant. It's not like there isn't a major gap between Joseph Schrieber's death and the beginning of SH4. Why did Walter wait 2 years to entrap Henry and initiate the post-Joseph Sacraments? Probably the same reason why nothing happened during SH3.

Quote:
I would agree that they are not omnipotent and seem to have certain needs to exist physically in our universe, they appear to be less bound in the unconscious domain. They also appear to possess immortality, at least God reappeared in Heather even though it had been killed by Harry. I would rather liken them to Old Ones (which would tie in with the direction that Toyama took the SIREN series) in that they are undying, but not actually completely immune to everything.


I wouldn't compare them to Old Ones at all; they're not ineffable enough and too dependent on human beings. :P

God's whole shtick is resurrection, so it's not weird for her to be able to defy death to a limited degree. She's still taken down by a shot to the face though.

Quote:
This reasoning, although logic from one perspective, always made me wonder.. Valtiel left Walter's mind in 1991 (when he committed suicide) to be present for the events of SH3 that occurred in 2000. What does it need 9 years for?


There's a lot of people who need to be recycled into their next lifetimes, don't you know. And Claudia was getting visions from her Second Sight. Maybe Valtiel was supplying them?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
mikefile wrote:
The same bloody deity, but in a different form. The God that the Saint Ladies and Holy Mother Sect are trying to create is effectively the Lord of Serpents and Reeds.

Then you have to explain to me, why the Crimson Tome, described as harmful to the sect that managed Wish House, describes the Holy Mother as the Devil. Not only that, a priest overheard by Sein Martin said that Walter was the or a devil that surpasses the powers of the or a holy woman (probably Alessa).
Also, the sect of the Holy Mother is heavily connected to whatever legend ranked around the holy stone Nahkeehona and it's ability to talk to the dead, while the Holy Woman branch seems to declare people saints and idolize them (St. Jennifer, Nicholas and Alessa), it is never once made clear whether the Holy Mother branch uses the same interpretation of God as the Holy Woman branch.
Walters diary also offers more info in the Japanese script than in what Eileen seems to say in the complete version of the October 16th entry:
october 16
today some important people came.
that woman named dahlia was quarreling.

(じゅうがつじゅうろくにち
きょうは えらいひとたち
が きました
そのなかの だりあ っていう
おんなのひと けんかしてました)
That would make you assume that Dahlias visit wasn't exactly a friendly housecall and that there was actually a matter of urgency discussed. If this was 1976 btw. it would explain why she hurried the birth of God once she knew about the Holy Mother sects plans.

Quote:
The Valtiel sect, as the sect that is the closest to God only beseeches the manifest of God, despite its form. [..] It then goes on to the Saint Ladies sect to exclusively serve the Saint Ladies sect while it is needed.

The part about the Valtiel sect being closest to God is a mistranslation as well. The line from Jimmy Stones profile is:
The Valtiel sect carries the worship of Valtiel, the being closest to God, also meaning executioner, as it's central dogma. (ヴァルティエル派は、「神に近い存在」であり、処刑人をも意味するヴァルティエルへの崇拝を中道義としている。)

The Valtiel sect also very likely does not exist anymore during SH3, so the sect itself would have not much to do with Valtiels appearance in that entry. The head priest Jimmy Stone died in 1993 during Walters murders and the Valtiel sect went into decline; also his right hand man George Rosten, who became the head priest of the Holy Mother sect and manager of Wish House, died during that time as well. The next priest, Toby Archbold, tried saving the sect by strengthening the drug trafficking in and out of Silent Hill and also planned to reopen Wish House, but he was killed sometime between 1996 and 2000 as the 14th victim.
Also again considering that the head priest of the Holy Mother sect was said to be the right hand man of the head priest of the Valtiel sect and that the management of Wish House and Dahlia seemed to be in a fight, it is likely that there were always stronger ties between the Valtiel and Holy Mother branch.

AuraTwilight wrote:
And what makes you think this 'idol' is what you think it is? It being a disembodied demigod, 'idol' could be being applied in the literal, mythological sense of 'deified ghost.'

The word gûzô 偶像 describes an image or statue of a god, created for the purpose of idolization and to house a god or spirit within it. It is not the being itself, but a man-made effigy.

Quote:
Or his soul was already divided, meaning he was occupying two places at once without being liberated from the flesh.

You're trying to create a false dichotomy here.

Explain to me two things.
Where is the false dicotomy? Walters blood has to be mixed with the other ingredients. If Walter dies in prison he cannot mix his blood with the other ingredients. Where is the mistake in your eyes?

Also, show me something that hints towards him actually being divided before the ritual of liberation takes places and how this is supposed to happen?

Quote:
There is significant subtle indication that Walter was divided into two halves before committing suicide, possibly as a result of his own Silent Hill adventure that we know he experienced at some point after killing the Locane children. This experience may have divided him into two individuals. Not only is there precedent for this in Alessa, but the original plan for Silent Hill would've had Mary and Maria been the same person, and James would've had a "Joseph" alternate self.

The incarcerated Walter admits that "he did it, but it wasn't me", and we also know he is in control of himself when he commits his murders.

The logical conclusion is that the incarcerated Walter did not exist as he does now at the time of the murders.

There is no mention that Walter had any Silent Hill adventure during or after the initial murders. When he meets up with Bobby Randolph, Sein Martin and Jasper Gein it is implied that his personality actually switches from Walter to "the devil".
Alessa divided her soul under serious physical and mental strain and basically bore another life that had no initial way of acting. Maria would have still likely been a vessel created in the town, but as we don't know any further let's not even include this less-than-half-knowledge into the mix.

Also it was not the incarcerated Walter who said that line, we know nothing about that person except that he killed himself and was buried in the cemetery behind Wish House. The line you are referring to is in context:
[i]A classmate from Pleasent River where Walter Sullivan also lived told us: "He didn't seem like a guy who would kill children. He was quiet in school and also a really nice person.
But, when I met him a short while before he was arrested, I remember him blurting out something bizarre. "He will kill me. He will judge me. The red devil, the monster. Please forgive me. It was me who did it, but it wasn't me."[i]
(ウォルター・サリバンの住んでいたプレザントリバーの同級生は、「子供を殺すような人間には見えなかった。学校では穏やかで、それに親切な人間だった。
ただ、あいつが逮捕される少し前に会ったときに、妙なことを口走っていたのは覚えている。『あいつは俺を殺そうとしている。裁こうとしている。赤い悪魔だ、怪物だ。許して
くれ。やったのは俺だけど、俺じゃないんだ。』)

Quote:
Killing himself in prison while also needing to die for the Ritual of Assumption, which is carried out in Room 302, is perfectly accounted for with this dual-Walter concept.

Though if we go by the "one part of the soul is not enough" concept of SH1, then his ritual of liberation shouldn't have succeeded as part of his soul was in another place.

Quote:
I wouldn't compare them to Old Ones at all; they're not ineffable enough and too dependent on human beings. :P

I wouldn't call them dependent on it. Until the Cult started messing around there didn't seem to be much energy spent by the spirits of that place to be born into this world. They pretty much existed alongside the people and here and then created little incidents that can always be accounted to human failings.
It's not like the Old Ones mind being summoned by humans and put into form within this realm, they play along and most of the time they wreak a little destruction. They have their own schedule and humans don't really concern them...the same seems to apply to Silent Hill.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
The word gûzô 偶像 describes an image or statue of a god, created for the purpose of idolization and to house a god or spirit within it. It is not the being itself, but a man-made effigy.


And if his projected spirit is his ego image distinct from his true body, what's the problem? Deities and spirits inhabit their idols. That's what they're FOR. It's even what the Holy Mother sect believes and what the 21 Sacraments plans to do to materialize God, specifically (summon God into an unliving vessel like a rock).

Quote:
Explain to me two things.
Where is the false dicotomy? Walters blood has to be mixed with the other ingredients. If Walter dies in prison he cannot mix his blood with the other ingredients. Where is the mistake in your eyes?

Also, show me something that hints towards him actually being divided before the ritual of liberation takes places and how this is supposed to happen?


The OTHER Walter can mix HIS blood, or dig up the incarcerated Walter and use his blood then.

Possible Evidence include: "I did it, but it wasn't me"; Walter experiencing the Abyss and having a tangential relevance to both Alessa and James, who have incidences of divided identity; and the fact that Walter appears to have had some sort of division since the game begins, if the presence of young Walter is any indication at all. Ontop of that, the Ritual of Assumption (where Walter carries everything to Room 302) takes place after Walter's suicide on the timeline, meaning he can't of done it before he went to jail.

Quote:
There is no mention that Walter had any Silent Hill adventure during or after the initial murders.


Walter Sullivan's name is on a gravestone with James', Angela's, and Eddie's, with the hole filled in like Angela's and Eddie's. This means he has already entered the Abyss by the time James enters that room.

Quote:
Alessa divided her soul under serious physical and mental strain and basically bore another life that had no initial way of acting. Maria would have still likely been a vessel created in the town, but as we don't know any further let's not even include this less-than-half-knowledge into the mix.


It's worth noting that the creators use the same term, "bodily half", to describe both Cheryl's and Maria's existences.

Also, neither of your contentions really negate the possibility of Walter's division. The point is there is precedent for it happening, and we don't know the circumstances of Walter's experiences in the Abyss. It could've been sufficiently traumatic or whatever other qualities you require.

Quote:
Also it was not the incarcerated Walter who said that line, we know nothing about that person except that he killed himself and was buried in the cemetery behind Wish House. The line you are referring to is in context:


He said it before being incarcerated, but it's the same individual Walter, by the admission of the same quote you dropped.

You're trying to argue semantics that have no bearing on the discussion now, and it's distracting.

Quote:
Though if we go by the "one part of the soul is not enough" concept of SH1, then his ritual of liberation shouldn't have succeeded as part of his soul was in another place.


This concept was only made in relation to Alessa feeding God's embryo with her emotions. This isn't related to what Walter is trying to accomplish. And since two Walters are present in his Otherworld, the two halves seem to both have been uplifted regardless.

Quote:
I wouldn't call them dependent on it. Until the Cult started messing around there didn't seem to be much energy spent by the spirits of that place to be born into this world. They pretty much existed alongside the people and here and then created little incidents that can always be accounted to human failings.
It's not like the Old Ones mind being summoned by humans and put into form within this realm, they play along and most of the time they wreak a little destruction. They have their own schedule and humans don't really concern them...the same seems to apply to Silent Hill.


That's...not really true. The Old Ones aside, since I don't want to argue interpretations of Lovecraftian fiction, the gods of Silent Hill seem 100% dominated by the existence and beliefs of humans; they literally don't exist without them, according to the creation myth of the Lord of Serpents and Reeds. God's parents were a mortal man and woman, and she was born for no other purpose and desire except to save them. She has no existence before and beyond that.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
Ontop of that, the Ritual of Assumption (where Walter carries everything to Room 302) takes place after Walter's suicide on the timeline, meaning he can't of done it before he went to jail.

Yes, I actually have to admit that I was mistaken here. The ritual of liberation takes place several death after the report of Walters suicide hit the news, so probably only at the end of the month Walter was incarcerated. Though I'd say that this would require him to safely store the hearts he retrieved, as that would be at least a month after he collected the first heart....but looking at the content of the fridge in the storage area and considering that Walter stitched his victims up again, he will probably have some knowledge how to store organs.

Quote:
Walter Sullivan's name is on a gravestone with James', Angela's, and Eddie's, with the hole filled in like Angela's and Eddie's. This means he has already entered the Abyss by the time James enters that room.

I think you are overestimating the implications made by this scene in SH2. Yes, we have to consider this in-canon, but I wouldn't call this proof that Walter had a similar experience to the other characters.
It surely can count as evidence for that, or maybe just as evidence that Walter has already died and become part of Silent Hills otherworldly planes. SH2 clearly does play after news of Walters death has hit the tabloids, and considering it's in the trash it could be at least a months or 2 after his death.

Quote:
He said it before being incarcerated, but it's the same individual Walter, by the admission of the same quote you dropped.

No it really isn't. A classmates comment about what Walter said a short while before his arrest does not actually make the person arrested the same individual.
Let's say individual A commits a crime, but out of unknown circumstances individual B is arrested under the name of individual A for said crime.
Now a former associate of individual A is asked what he thinks about the person that was said to be arrested. He will of course think it is person A and nobody else.

It's even outright said by Schreiber in the game, that the Walter in prison could not have been the actual Walter. Yes, the "dividing of bodies" would take care of that, but there is no actual indication of that taking place in the real world before the ritual of liberation (and even then adult Walter only seems to exist in his Otherworld).

Quote:
God's parents were a mortal man and woman, and she was born for no other purpose and desire except to save them. She has no existence before and beyond that.
[/quote]
That is debatable I think and would probably ditch into a struggle equal to that fought by the sects in Silent Hill within the story :wink:
The legend is pretty ambigious, but as I understand it the concept of God and the knowledge of its existence was there, she was simply not present in the world where humans suffered.
A man sacrificed a snake to the sun and prayed for salvation.
A woman offered up a reed to the sun and begged for joy.
Showing compassion for the sorrow that infested the land,
God was born from that pair, man and woman.

ある男は太陽に蛇を捧げ、救いを祈り
ある女は太陽に葦を捧げ、喜びを願った
大地に蔓延する悲しみを憐れみ、
神はこの一組の男女から生まれた

I think it simply shows a being with greater powers, supernatural or not, coming to this land when the legend was created, and supplying the inhabitants with the necessities to lead their lifes. If anything I'd argue that the being that inspired this legend was no god at all :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
I think you are overestimating the implications made by this scene in SH2. Yes, we have to consider this in-canon, but I wouldn't call this proof that Walter had a similar experience to the other characters.
It surely can count as evidence for that, or maybe just as evidence that Walter has already died and become part of Silent Hills otherworldly planes. SH2 clearly does play after news of Walters death has hit the tabloids, and considering it's in the trash it could be at least a months or 2 after his death.


The problem is that SH4's Otherworld isn't connected to the Otherworld of Silent Hill. It's an entirely new plane of existence of his own creation.

Also, the graves don't represent dying or becoming 'part of the Otherworld', since Eddie and Angela are still very alive at that point. Descending into the Abyss is a physical metaphor for facing oneself. James has to face what he did to Mary, for example.

Quote:
It's even outright said by Schreiber in the game, that the Walter in prison could not have been the actual Walter. Yes, the "dividing of bodies" would take care of that, but there is no actual indication of that taking place in the real world before the ritual of liberation (and even then adult Walter only seems to exist in his Otherworld).


So, what, they arrested an imposter?

The person who died in prison has to be Walter, since he satisfies the 11th Sacrament. Your argument for "philosophical zombie with his memories Idol Walter" is also kind of hard to follow, unconvincing, and there's no precedent for it that I can see.

Quote:
I think it simply shows a being with greater powers, supernatural or not, coming to this land when the legend was created, and supplying the inhabitants with the necessities to lead their lifes. If anything I'd argue that the being that inspired this legend was no god at all/


God was BORN from that pair, man and woman.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
The problem is that SH4's Otherworld isn't connected to the Otherworld of Silent Hill. It's an entirely new plane of existence of his own creation.

Each Otherworld is a plane of its own, a creation of one respective person.
In SH1 it was Alessas world, which shifted in and out of existence as she weakened and strengthened.
In SH2 each person created their own Otherworld in Silent Hill, only slightly overlapping at certain points and only able to draw others in if their emotions "coincided", like with James and Angela.
In SH3 it was Claudias world, additionally fueled by the memories of Alessa left in Heather.
In SH4 we have Walters world, which he actually manifested as a pocket dimension within ours and strengthened it so far that he can draw other people in it.

The difference is that Walters world is purely made from memories and the only overlapping point is actually the hub room #302.

Quote:
Descending into the Abyss is a physical metaphor for facing oneself. James has to face what he did to Mary, for example.

Yes, I completely agree with you on that metaphor, but the presence of Walters grave does not necessarily have to imply that he faced "his demons" or whatever it was that was haunting them. Eddies case for example, as also for a certain amount Angelas, seems to imply that you simply have to choose at the end of your journey. Eddie did not come through as a purified being, he still enjoyed killing and didn't seem to see the moral implications of it.

To say that Walter "faced the Abyss" would be implying that there is a steady modus operandi to be observed in Silent Hill.

Quote:
So, what, they arrested an imposter?

Just like how a mysterious middle-aged man installed the Door to the Past and chose William Gregory as the 9th victim 6 years before the ritual even began.
Just like how a mysterious middle-aged customer got Eric Walsh, the 10th victim, to run home one day (with news of a murder that was not yet publicly known) and Walter was waiting for him in his home.
I think there are more events running behind the scenes that are implied, but not fully noticeable in the game itself, as there is so much additional material.

Quote:
The person who died in prison has to be Walter, since he satisfies the 11th Sacrament.

No, he does not.
A corpse is drained of bodily fluids before he is put in a grave. That means the blood that has to be offered as the 11th Sacrament would be forever lost. He has to mix his blood with the White Oil and that of the Ten Hearts or there is no Ritual of Liberation for him.
A mystical split Walter from a previous Silent Hill adventure could have dug him up at the earliest, probably about a few days after he was put in the ground. That body would be useless for the ritual then.

Quote:
God was BORN from that pair, man and woman.

I think we really have a different idea of what that being born means.
For me, because God made the conscious choice to be born out of pity on the world, she existed before being born and was reached by the prayers. She was brought into this world by that pair by being born, but she was not created by that man and woman.


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