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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Each Otherworld is a plane of its own, a creation of one respective person.


That's not what I'm talking about. The other Otherworlds are built on the same foundations, can connect to each other, and share similar laws. SH4 doesn't. It is "Apart from the World of Our Lord."

Quote:
Yes, I completely agree with you on that metaphor, but the presence of Walters grave does not necessarily have to imply that he faced "his demons" or whatever it was that was haunting them.


Yes it does. That's what the Abyss is.

Quote:
To say that Walter "faced the Abyss" would be implying that there is a steady modus operandi to be observed in Silent Hill.


Several people besides James sees the Abyss. It might not be something everyone faces, but everyone in that graveyard does. Walter is grouped with James, Eddie, and Angela for a reason. He may not have literally jumped in a grave, but the symbol has meaning.

Quote:
Just like how a mysterious middle-aged man installed the Door to the Past and chose William Gregory as the 9th victim 6 years before the ritual even began.
Just like how a mysterious middle-aged customer got Eric Walsh, the 10th victim, to run home one day (with news of a murder that was not yet publicly known) and Walter was waiting for him in his home.
I think there are more events running behind the scenes that are implied, but not fully noticeable in the game itself, as there is so much additional material.


Erm...what are you talking about? I'm not following you here. Especially with this Door To The Past thing?

Quote:
No, he does not.
A corpse is drained of bodily fluids before he is put in a grave. That means the blood that has to be offered as the 11th Sacrament would be forever lost. He has to mix his blood with the White Oil and that of the Ten Hearts or there is no Ritual of Liberation for him.
A mystical split Walter from a previous Silent Hill adventure could have dug him up at the earliest, probably about a few days after he was put in the ground. That body would be useless for the ritual then.


Well then the second Walter used his own blood. Same difference. But his suicide-by-spoon is listed as satisfying the 11th Sacrament, according to all official sources that touch on the matter. Perhaps both "bodily halfs" are required for the True Flesh, who knows?

Quote:
I think we really have a different idea of what that being born means.
For me, because God made the conscious choice to be born out of pity on the world, she existed before being born and was reached by the prayers. She was brought into this world by that pair by being born, but she was not created by that man and woman.


The Creation Myth treats her as non-existent before being born. She probably just created herself in that moment of sympathy. It's not the first or only creation myth to have a deity create itself in response to something else.

But it's kind of moot. Personally, I don't think the gods of Silent Hill actually exist, so I don't find the discussion of their traits to be all that meaningful.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
There's a lot of people who need to be recycled into their next lifetimes, don't you know. And Claudia was getting visions from her Second Sight. Maybe Valtiel was supplying them?
I think it's hard, if not even impossible, to state that Valtiel left Walter specifically because of being needed for the Alessa scenario. It's not concretely known what other jobs he attended. We know his purpose and that's it; we can simply put it that he had other things to do or had finished his assignment with Walter, but not with clear certainty that he specifically left to adhere to the events of Silent Hill 3.

chounokoe wrote:
Then you have to explain to me, why the Crimson Tome, described as harmful to the sect that managed Wish House, describes the Holy Mother as the Devil.

The Crimson Tome is not harmful to the Holy Mother sect, but to God and its realm: "To give birth to a world of wickedness within the blessed realm of our Lord be blasphemy and the work of the Devil." The Crimson Tome is a book written by the Saint Ladies sect in order to accentuate the false image of the 'Holy Mother'. The Saint Ladies are effectively against the idea that the Mothers are trying to birth God, the Lord of Serpents and Reeds.

chounokoe wrote:
The part about the Valtiel sect being closest to God is a mistranslation as well. The line from Jimmy Stones profile is:
The Valtiel sect carries the worship of Valtiel, the being closest to God, also meaning executioner, as it's central dogma.

Firstly, about your translation corrections: I can't enter this argument because, ultimately, I don't speak Japanese. So, I can't argue about whether you're wrong or not, but I also can't automatically accept your translation because, effectively, I'm not getting any solid proof. Are you following? And, nothing really comes to my mind as a possible solution. Secondly, in case your translation was correct, that is "The Valtiel sect carries the worship of Valtiel, the being closest to God (...)", it still doesn't dilapidate the fact that it was a sect closest to God. If Valtiel is the being closest to God, and Valtiel is worshipped by this sect, then, it must be that the sect is the closest to God, too. Because the sect, as Valtiel, is trying to bring forth the birth of God through whatever method is in range.
chounokoe wrote:
For me, because God made the conscious choice to be born out of pity on the world, she existed before being born and was reached by the prayers.
I'm sorry, but that's completely incorrect. The whole point of the Creation mith is to point out that man created God the first time. It depicts the whole meaning of the series. Gods, creatures and the Otherworlds are born out of people who manifest them. If you wish, you may link God to Maria, for instance, but on a much, much grand scale. It's a bit banal, but effectively true.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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It's the Sect of the Holy Woman. Not the Saint Ladies Sect.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Erm...what are you talking about? I'm not following you here. Especially with this Door To The Past thing?


9/21 William Gregory

William Gregory was a skilled clockmaker and had made a name for himself.
Even though he had become old, his work was still precise.
One day 16 years ago, a middle-aged man clad in black from head to toe left a broken clock to his store.
William took one look at it and understood that this was no ordinary clock, though he could not tell what made it out of the ordinary.
That night William had a bizarre dream.
A cage with volleyballs in it.... a kitten continuing to cry in a weak voice.... a feast and a birthday-cake on a table...
A room that is completely upside-down... a billiard table on which the balls move on their own...
It seemed like the dream was a sort of sign.

10/21 Eric Walsh

That day was a special day for the bartender Eric Walsh.
However, due to the news that the middle-aged man who rushed into the store brought, this became an even more special day.
The pet-shop owner had been slaughtered.
He had been turned into a swiss cheese with a submachine gun and the store was apparently laid to waste as well.
Because the culprit might still lurk somewhere close by, the owner decided to close the bar and Eric returned home immediately.
When he arrived, there was a feast and a cake prepared on the table. It was to celebrate this day.
Eric searched for his family, but as expected it was not his family who was in his home.


Quote:
But his suicide-by-spoon is listed as satisfying the 11th Sacrament, according to all official sources that touch on the matter. Perhaps both "bodily halfs" are required for the True Flesh, who knows?

As I said, I corrected myself and the ritual actually took place after the "suicide", so I don't believe there were two Walters.
Also, what official sources claim that his suicide counted at the 11th Sacrament?

My hypothesis is, Walter did not die in jail. I am considering, that the person who committed suicide in jail was not Walter. Or couldn't it be that the man who was arrested by the police might not have been Walter at all?

As it is now, it is not in my power to investigate the case within the prison. But, Walter did not die in jail.
It is the man in the coat, who appeared in room #302 after that, that is the real Walter.


I dare say that he constructed his space using this as a base. It is without a doubt that the Ritual of Liberation took place close by as well.

These are things that Joseph Schreiber writes and as he is our information source, both as a gamer and as a character in the story, I believe we should not disregard that train of thought so easily.


mikefile wrote:
The Crimson Tome is not harmful to the Holy Mother sect, but to God and its realm [...] The Saint Ladies are effectively against the idea that the Mothers are trying to birth God, the Lord of Serpents and Reeds.

You are contradicting yourself here somehow. If you are saying that they are both praying to the same entity, just under different names, then the Crimson Tome does not harm God, because it basically only says that one method to bring this being into our world is wrong.
Of course the Crimson Tome is in the end harmful to the sect itself, because it describes a way in which their ritual can be stopped. Joseph Schreiber writes about it:

Red Diary April 10th

After a long while I went into that forest , to the ruins of Wish House again today.
All because I was able to get my hands on the key to that place through a certain route.
That is how I could enter Wish House, which had become abandoned by now.
On the 1st floor there was a huge room with desks and chairs and other furniture scattered all over the place, besides that a comparatively small chamber equipped with an altar and on the 2nd floor several small rooms in which the believers and the children lived.
It was here that I found that book.
It was not a scripture used by the cult, instead it was a book with disadvantageous content for the cult.
So far I only lightly skimmed over it, but I am planning to read it all once I finish this journal.

Red Diary April 16th

I finally finished reading that book.
This is possibly a truly outrageous item.
The cult might have officially crumbled, but I am convinced it is still active under the surface even now.
Just by having this book in my possession I do not know when danger might befall my body.
But, at least until the time comes when this book is needed, even if I have to put my life at stake, I have to protect it.
By the way, since I stepped into the ruins of Wish House the other day, I am having the same bizarre dream every night.

A small child is shaking its sleeping mothers body and crying, "Mama...wake up...mama...", pleading again and again.
And when the mother, her back turns toward me, slowly turns her head...
I always wake up.



chounokoe wrote:
Firstly, about your translation corrections: I can't enter this argument because, ultimately, I don't speak Japanese. So, I can't argue about whether you're wrong or not, but I also can't automatically accept your translation because, effectively, I'm not getting any solid proof. Are you following? And, nothing really comes to my mind as a possible solution.

How about asking other people who speak proper Japanese on their opinion?
Or just asking me what my credentials concerning Japanese are? I'm not trying to be an ass showing off how much better my Japanese is, I couldn't care less if the translation was grammatically correct and carried the exact meaning.

Quote:
Secondly, in case your translation was correct, that is "The Valtiel sect carries the worship of Valtiel, the being closest to God (...)", it still doesn't dilapidate the fact that it was a sect closest to God.

No, because the other sects are doing the same (trying to bring forth their god). Closest to God implies a rank and in that regard the others are higher, because they pray directly to their god, while the Valtiel sect only reveres the being closest to God. It's like knocking on my neighbors door to ask if I'm there, while another person goes directly to my door. You might get an answer that I wasn't there 5 minutes ago, but the other person might get to meet me because I happened to come back just now.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
These are things that Joseph Schreiber writes and as he is our information source, both as a gamer and as a character in the story, I believe we should not disregard that train of thought so easily.


You're neglecting that Joseph gets more and more accurate as he goes on with his documenting. He starts with a mostly rational mindset and progresses toward the truth. He doubts Walter's death because Walter is still killing people; it's later when he concedes that Walter is an undead monster.

Quote:
Also, what official sources claim that his suicide counted at the 11th Sacrament?


Literally everything that numbers the Sacraments?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
You're neglecting that Joseph gets more and more accurate as he goes on with his documenting. He starts with a mostly rational mindset and progresses toward the truth. He doubts Walter's death because Walter is still killing people; it's later when he concedes that Walter is an undead monster.

Which is why it is important that the diary entries are from the end of his investigation in July, after he started venturing into Walters world and encountering his victims.
The last one, from his letter to the next tenant who he concludes to be the Receiver of Wisdom, should even be written around or after August 5th. And he never comes to the conclusion that Walter is an "undead monster", his conclusion is that the real Walter somehow fooled the public, that is finishing his ritual close to the place he considers his birth place and birth parent, room #302 and that it is this room which is used as a control base for everything.

Quote:
Literally everything that numbers the Sacraments?

What I meant to say was, can you tell me any sources that say this so I can read it up?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
And he never comes to the conclusion that Walter is an "undead monster",


Except when he talks to Henry and Eileen and basically calls him such in his own words.

Quote:
What I meant to say was, can you tell me any sources that say this so I can read it up?


http://translatedmemories.com/victimfiles.html

Here's a good online source. The one that killed himself with a spoon is literally marked "11/21", and 11/21 is identified as Walter in-game, therefore they are the same entity. For kickers, the person who killed himself in jail disappears from his gravestone. Not only does that invoke the Jesus symbolism already associated with Walter, but why would he dig up the corpse of an imposter? What could he possibly need the body for, unless it was his OWN body?

The person who killed himself in jail is also associated with the one who performs the Assumption Ceremony, so...there you go.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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The Adversary wrote:
It's the Sect of the Holy Woman. Not the Saint Ladies Sect.
I've actually been using the term until a few weeks ago when I went to recap the Sacraments on the Sullivan Victims section of the Translated Memories site, where I noticed the mention of the Saint Ladies for Walter's sect. And very intelligent of me, I suspected it might the official term, neglecting the fact that I'm looking at a rather unofficial material. Well, thanks for correcting me.

chounokoe wrote:
You are contradicting yourself here somehow. If you are saying that they are both praying to the same entity, just under different names, then the Crimson Tome does not harm God, because it basically only says that one method to bring this being into our world is wrong.
If God can be created through different methods then the outcomes must be different. That's logical, rigt? Next, the two sects have different believings, therefore, the Holy Womans see the Lord of Serpents and Reeds as a Goddess that shall 'redo' the corrupt world in order to create Paradise. The Holy Mothers see the birth of the Lord of Reeds and Serpents as the time when the Mother shall be reborn and the Nation of Sin shall be redeemed.

chounokoe wrote:
I'm not trying to be an ass showing off how much better my Japanese is, I couldn't care less if the translation was grammatically correct and carried the exact meaning.
Then why are you wasting your time trying to form an objectively valid hypothesis based on semantics?

chounokoe wrote:
No, because the other sects are doing the same (trying to bring forth their god).
Again, as I pointed out, their form of the God.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Except when he talks to Henry and Eileen and basically calls him such in his own words.

Nope, he doesn't say that exactly:

Joseph Schreiber wrote:
He decided to "free" her from the stains and corruption of this world.
At the orphanage, he learned of the "21 Sacraments," the only way to purify her
In that orphanage he learned the only way, to reclaim this room, his mother, from this corrupted earthly life (彼は母親であるこの部屋を汚れた俗世から取り戻し浄化する唯一の方法「21の秘蹟」を孤児院で知ったのです)

He then performed the ceremony of the "Holy Assumption" and created this ...twisted world
And by the means of the ritual of liberation, created this repulsive world by himself (そして自ら「解放の儀式」によってこのおぞましい世界を創りあげました)

Now...he's become nothing more than an inhuman killing machine
His current....self is nothing more than simple murder machine... (今の・・・・・・彼はもはやただの殺人マシーン・・・・・・・・・)

Well, he's dead now...but he's still trying to complete...the "21 Sacraments"
Though he has died...in his inorganic state he is still trying to accomplish...the 21 sacraments (死してなお・・・無機的に「21の秘蹟」を・・・遂行しようとしています)

His boyhood desire...to return to the bosom of his birth...has divided him
His infant wish...to return to his mothers side...he has been separated from it as well(幼少の頃の母親・・・のもとへ帰りたいという願望・・・とも分離してしまって)

Now his child self...has manifested itself in this world...
And his childhood form...was brought forth in this world... (・・・幼少の頃の姿も・・・この世界で生み出したのです・・・・・・)


He actually says that the current Walter we see is an inorganic thing that exists solely for the completion of the 21 Sacraments, while his wish to return to his mother was separated from him and manifested in form of his childhood self.
Though the lines are a little more or less ambigious depending if you follow the acting script or the Japanese script.

Quote:
http://translatedmemories.com/victimfiles.html

If you had taken the time to read the about you would have noticed this:
translated memories wrote:
We have tried to keep the look of the files identical to what was seen on the SH4 website, however a few alterations that add some additional information have been made. Pictures of the ghostly versions of the victims that are encountered in the game have been added to the second page of their respective file. Information that reveals the identity of victim no.11 was added as well. You can still view the file as it orginally appeared on the website but now you can click the link to reveal who the mystery person is... But if you haven't played the game yet - Consider yourself warned of SPOILERS!

We've also created files for victims 16 thru 21, which were never included on the official site, for the sake of being complete. Hopefully you won't mind the additions that have been made as the unaltered Japanese files can no longer be viewed since the SH4 site was taken down.

I surely don't mind the additions, but these information are not official. They are as official as me or you creating a victim-file for Walter Sullivan.

Quote:
The person who killed himself in jail is also associated with the one who performs the Assumption Ceremony, so...there you go.

No, the only thing that is given to us in the official data on John Doe, victim no. 11/21, is that he was rumored to be the one taught by George Rosten, that he has to be the Conjurer and that his corpse was never found.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
He actually says that the current Walter we see is an inorganic thing that exists solely for the completion of the 21 Sacraments, while his wish to return to his mother was separated from him and manifested in form of his childhood self.
Though the lines are a little more or less ambigious depending if you follow the acting script or the Japanese script.


The characters you drew "inorganic" from can also be interpreted as "immaterial" and "unfleshly". I have to second mikefile on the objectivity of your translations.

Quote:
I surely don't mind the additions, but these information are not official. They are as official as me or you creating a victim-file for Walter Sullivan.


The information is official, but compiled in a non-official way, like putting footnotes from a publisher.

Quote:
No, the only thing that is given to us in the official data on John Doe, victim no. 11/21, is that he was rumored to be the one taught by George Rosten, that he has to be the Conjurer and that his corpse was never found.


Walter is the Conjurer, and Richard Braintree calls Walter the 11121 man, sooooo....

Yea, connect the dots. You're being silly.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
The characters you drew "inorganic" from can also be interpreted as "immaterial" and "unfleshly". I have to second mikefile on the objectivity of your translations.

Of course they can also be interpreted as such :roll:
Though the implication that is gained through the word 無機的 instead of 無形, 非物質的 or 霊的 is, that it is a cold, lifeless being that is inhuman, inorganic, not alive...maybe even artificial. And a translation is never "objective" :wink:

But I never took a problem with the notion that Walter is a Ghost himself, I drew a problem with your term "undead monster" as it somehow seems a little too unclear a term to me...like that's all that is to him.

Quote:
The information is official, but compiled in a non-official way, like putting footnotes from a publisher.

I have a feeling you don't understand.
There is no original source that claims that the way Walter died as the 11th sacrifice was by the way of the spoon to his neck.

Quote:
Walter is the Conjurer, and Richard Braintree calls Walter the 11121 man, sooooo....

Of course Walter is the 11th sacrifice, he is the Conjurer so he has to be the 11th or the whole ritual would be moot. What I am saying is just like above, that no official source backs up the interpretation done for Walters file on the translated memories site. Yes, officially Walter died in prison by jamming a spoon into his neck, but, as we learn right before the climax of SH4, Walter did in fact not die in prison, but as the 11th sacrament which had to be carried out in close proximity to room #302 to use it as a base connecting this world and his Otherworld.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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>The information is official, but compiled in a non-official way, like putting footnotes from a publisher.<
This isn't correct. The victim files for Walter, Cynthia, Jasper, Richard, Eileen, and Henry are made up by the writers of TranslatedMemories.com. No official source material was used—the Web site's owners just fabricated information to make it appear more complete—meaning Konami never provided the information TranslatedMemories.com used to create the material. Basically, anything you've read in those six victim files is unofficial, and any of us could have imagined and wrote what they say.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Quote:
Of course they can also be interpreted as such :roll:
Though the implication that is gained through the word 無機的 instead of 無形, 非物質的 or 霊的 is, that it is a cold, lifeless being that is inhuman, inorganic, not alive...maybe even artificial. And a translation is never "objective"


So you're just going to represent things however you want instead of what's most likely to be accurate. Thanks for admitting that.

Quote:
But I never took a problem with the notion that Walter is a Ghost himself, I drew a problem with your term "undead monster" as it somehow seems a little too unclear a term to me...like that's all that is to him.


Says the guy who wants to reduce him to a literal automaton. :P

Quote:
This isn't correct. The victim files for Walter, Cynthia, Jasper, Richard, Eileen, and Henry are made up by the writers of TranslatedMemories.com.


My apologies, then. I thought I remembered reading otherwise on this forum before.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
So you're just going to represent things however you want instead of what's most likely to be accurate. Thanks for admitting that.

I never said that, did I? :P
I stated my case why I think that inorganic is the more precise word to use in a translation meant to discuss the implications meant by that scene, while I consider immaterial a too metaphysical concept that is not actually implied by how the Japanese script chose to write it.
But a translation is always a subjective choice by the translator based on his interpretation of the original text. The question is: Can the translator back up why he did so?

Quote:
Says the guy who wants to reduce him to a literal automaton. :P

That's only one side of the coin. Yes, I think that the 24 year old Walter we have chasing after us is pretty much a murder-machine (as Schreiber says it), existing to complete the sacrifices but without reason. His childhood ideal of wanting to be with his mother split from him and manifested itself, wandering his world, the question that is far more interesting is why, I think.


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Gravedigger
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chounokoe wrote:
There is no original source that claims that the way Walter died as the 11th sacrifice was by the way of the spoon to his neck.

SH2 murder incident article?

chounokoe wrote:
And a translation is never "objective"

Yes, it is. When you translate, you can choose, for instance, to use the proper official translation of a word, or you can use a word that you think suits the text better instead of something you can find in a dictionary and that would commonly be considered as correct. Hitherto, you've implicated your use of the second method.

The Adversary wrote:
The victim files for Walter, Cynthia, Jasper, Richard, Eileen, and Henry are made up by the writers of TranslatedMemories.com.
Ok, I started having unnecessary doubts. Question: you're saying that the Another Crimson Tome is unofficial, but what about the Sullivan Victims section? Is the material taken from the official SH4 website or was it also invented?

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

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mikefile wrote:
SH2 murder incident article?

The article states that the police stated that Walter Sullivan died in prison by stabbing a spoon in his neck, which lead to excessive blood-loss and finally death, yes.
But it does not state that Walter Sullivan died of the 11th victim of a chain of murders. Wouldn't it have been mentioned that he had carved the number "11121" in his foot before dying?

What I am trying to get at is, that this information was overwritten by what we as a character and player learn through Joseph Schreiber in SH4. Walter Sullivan did not die in prison, he sacrificed himself later in room 302.
How then was it reported that Walter died in prison? As Schreiber surmised, either there was an exchange during his incarceration, maybe they arrested the wrong person, maybe someone (a cult member) even agreed to stand in for Walter and killed himself before further investigation could be done. Maybe there wasn't even a body in the first place and they buried an empty casket

With the information the game gives us, it is just unlikely that Walter killed himself in prison, because that would have ended the ritual prematurely.

Quote:
Yes, it is. When you translate, you can choose, for instance, to use the proper official translation of a word, or you can use a word that you think suits the text better instead of something you can find in a dictionary and that would commonly be considered as correct. Hitherto, you've implicated your use of the second method.

No, I actually didn't. "Inorganic" is one of the 'official' translations of mukiteki (ç„¡æ©Ÿçš„) carried in a dictionary, the other is "unorganized" in the sense of 'not belonging to a greater body, or possessing properties of an organized unit'.
The other possible translation to that subtitle would thus be:
"Though he has died...unorganized he is still trying to accomplish...the 21 Sacraments..."
That would imply that the meaning was, that he is now doing it without any adherence to the cult or any greater goal. It was actually AT who did a lot more interpretation when saying that it could also be translated as "immaterial".

And I still the disagree with the idea of a completely objective translation. It can be done, of course, but you'd technically have to just replace each word with the most common translation of said word in a dictionary.
You should not have a subjective goal in mind, that is true. Like translating words in an unconventional way just to fit your interpretation, translating in a way that fits your idea of the text and not the natural flow of it, adding stuff that just isn't there, etc.

The Adversary wrote:
Ok, I started having unnecessary doubts. Question: you're saying that the Another Crimson Tome is unofficial, but what about the Sullivan Victims section? Is the material taken from the official SH4 website or was it also invented?

Another Crimson Tome (もう一つの赤の書: mou hitotsu no aka no sho) is not unofficial either. These pages can still be bound on the Japanese SH4 page.
The files on the Sullivan Victims 1-15 were published on a sort of promo-site for SH4, which is no longer accessible. The Japanese text can still be found on several blogs though. The file for the 11/21 was simply titled John Doe and had some very unspecific information and the 15/21 was called J and also very vague. So this was largely the information that someone in the SH4 world could have had at the beginning of the game.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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The article states that the police stated that Walter Sullivan died in prison by stabbing a spoon in his neck, which lead to excessive blood-loss and finally death, yes.
But it does not state that Walter Sullivan died of the 11th victim of a chain of murders. Wouldn't it have been mentioned that he had carved the number "11121" in his foot before dying?

What I am trying to get at is, that this information was overwritten by what we as a character and player learn through Joseph Schreiber in SH4. Walter Sullivan did not die in prison, he sacrificed himself later in room 302.
How then was it reported that Walter died in prison? As Schreiber surmised, either there was an exchange during his incarceration, maybe they arrested the wrong person, maybe someone (a cult member) even agreed to stand in for Walter and killed himself before further investigation could be done. Maybe there wasn't even a body in the first place and they buried an empty casket

With the information the game gives us, it is just unlikely that Walter killed himself in prison, because that would have ended the ritual prematurely.


You neglect that 11121 appeared on his tombstone, which his corpse vanished out of, BEFORE Walter was spotted entering Room 302 by Frank Sunderland. Despite all your words, you never address this plot hole in your explanations.

Quote:
That would imply that the meaning was, that he is now doing it without any adherence to the cult or any greater goal. It was actually AT who did a lot more interpretation when saying that it could also be translated as "immaterial".


That's how I hear the word used in casual conversation, and it's how some of the base characters in the word can be used on their own.

A question; do you JUST use a dictionary for your translations? Or do you actually use the language in your day-to-day life? Are you fluent in it?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
You neglect that 11121 appeared on his tombstone, which his corpse vanished out of, BEFORE Walter was spotted entering Room 302 by Frank Sunderland. Despite all your words, you never address this plot hole in your explanations.

Actually we don't know when the 11121 in the casket in Walters grave appeared. It was NOT spotted before Walter was seen by Sunderland and Braintree, but actually first acknowledged by Schreiber in his diary. Until his entry from June 11th there was still only the 12/21 and 13/21 body and in his entry from June 14th he seems pretty brought up about the fact that he found Walters grave empty and admits surprise at finding the numbers 11/21 in it. This is the inciting moment from which he constructs his theory about Walter not being dead one months later.

His diary describes the cemetery as dilapidated, almost in ruins and finding Walters grave-site only after some trouble. So it appears that either nobody checked the grave of Walter after the 12/21 was found, or the grave was only dug up after. Actually, considering how Schreiber comments that the thick fog will help him "avoid people" and "aid him in his work", and how he says that the grave is empty, not that its open, it could even have been Schreiber who dug the grave up and found the casket empty with 11/21 already written inside.

Quote:
That's how I hear the word used in casual conversation, and it's how some of the base characters in the word can be used on their own.

A question; do you JUST use a dictionary for your translations? Or do you actually use the language in your day-to-day life? Are you fluent in it?

Considering I'm working with Japanese people at a university in Japan an talk with my friends in my freetime, I severely hope I'm fairly fluent in it :P
So no, I basically do a translation in my head and check words that are ambiguous in their meaning and might carry some unorthodox implications that one might have to consider when translating something like Silent Hill.

But you would honestly use mukiteki in casual conversation? I mean okay, it depends on the conversation, but I wouldn't really describe it as a casual word.
And getting immaterial or unfleshly from the Kanji? Really? It's almost literally "the state of being un-structured"....okay, you can maybe interpret the intention of possibly implying immaterial from it. But there are so many words for immaterial, why not use them?!


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
But you would honestly use mukiteki in casual conversation? I mean okay, it depends on the conversation, but I wouldn't really describe it as a casual word.


I have a family member from a religious Shinto backround, and she often used the term as an adjective to describe things like ghosts. That's why I mention it.

Quote:
And getting immaterial or unfleshly from the Kanji? Really? It's almost literally "the state of being un-structured"....okay, you can maybe interpret the intention of possibly implying immaterial from it. But there are so many words for immaterial, why not use them?


You ask this of a language where the current generation doesn't even know all the characters in their language, you know that, right? :P Japanese words can be broken down into their component meanings to bridge this gap, since it's unreasonable to expect everyone to know every Japanese character and term.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: What is the method of sacrificing the 21th victim?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
I have a family member from a religious Shinto backround, and she often used the term as an adjective to describe things like ghosts. That's why I mention it.

Do you have any way of casually contacting her and asking her whether this is an official Shinto term that was just adapted into a more technical usage?
I only know it as the opposite of 有機的, which is also fairly uncommon to use in casual language, so I'm really curious about that one. Maybe it's just something that is so uncommon to use that no dictionary actually carries it.
I know quite some words describing the quality of ghosts and spirits, but ç„¡æ©Ÿçš„ is usually not among them, therefore...


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