What did the order want from Walter?

[AuraTwilight]

Yea...and I repeat, he always understood. For one thing, the same theory that mandates that Walter needed to split also requires him to rejoin back together, then he can split into Adult and Child Walter later.

[mikefile]

So.. in theorical terms, after the two halfs rejoined, the complete Walter was permitted to divide again into the adult part (that understands the truth) and the child one (that thought mommy was Room 302).
However, I've got one more doubt: If the part of Walter that commited suicide merged itself with the 'other one', shouldn't there be the presence of guilt in his psyche?
This fractioned Walter phenomenon always bugged the hell out of me.

[AuraTwilight]

He does feel guilt.

What do you think the Victim 7+8 monsters represent?

[SHF]

So.. in theorical terms, after the two halfs rejoined, the complete Walter was permitted to divide again into the adult part (that understands the truth) and the child one (that thought mommy was Room 302).
However, I've got one more doubt: If the part of Walter that commited suicide merged itself with the 'other one', shouldn't there be the presence of guilt in his psyche?
This fractioned Walter phenomenon always bugged the hell out of me.

Walter didn't split twice. He split when Valtiel was possessing him.
He stayed " split" through out the whole ordeal.

[AuraTwilight]

No, he did split twice. He split, killed himself, and had to recombine to perform the ritual. Then he split again at around the time Eileen was attacked.

[SAQOA]

^ How does he split twice? How can he split when he is still alive and has no kind of power to split. I would have thought he kills himself, which sends him to the otherworld (evidence of the dead ending up in the otherworld is refferenced throughout the series) and from the otherworld dug his corpse up, dragged it to room 302, and performed the 'ritual of holy assumption'

Descent of the Holy Mother - The 21 Sacraments

The First Sign
And God said,
At the time of fullness, cleanse the world with my rage.
Gather forth the White Oil, the Black Cup and the Blood of the Ten Sinners.
Prepare for the Ritual of the Holy Assumption.

The Second Sign
And God said,
Offer the Blood of the Ten Sinners and the White Oil.

Be then released from the bonds of the flesh, and gain the Power of Heaven.
From the Darkness and Void, bring forth Gloom,

The point here is he only gained any kind of power of his own after doing the ritual, not before. From a member of the orders point of view, maybe gaining the powers of 'heaven' would be powers like valtiel might have, things like chaining henrys door up, and controlling otherworld shifts. As for 'how did walter dig his body up if he was sent to the otherworld when he died?' - Think of the ghost of a man in the subway that pushs heather.

I could belive walter split into 2 versions 'because' of the ritual hence released from the bonds of the flesh but not before then. If you can prove it happened with in game evidence cool, but until then ima stick with this explaination.

Oh and

and had to recombine to perform the ritual

<-- where is this coming from ?

[SHF]

Valtiel possessed Walter Sullivan.
He was then able to perform the Ritual of the Holy Assumption ( that's how he was able to come back to life after he killed himself in his cell and continue with the 21 sacraments)


We see the young Walter and the Adult Walter Sullivan throughout the game.
The "split" happened only once.

Just because we see the young walter watching over Eileen after she was attacked doesn't mean that they split again, both walters exist within the same world together.

[Xev]

Besides the line in from the paper in SH2 is there any formal stating of Valtiel possessing Walter? I never thought there were specific details regarding that. Why would Valtiel want to posses Walter? His transmigration would begin with the 10 Hearts while alive then on to kill himself to achieve the Holy Assumption and complete the Sacraments while in Otherworld.
I just dont believe Valtiel to be evil, more neutral.

[AuraTwilight]

Valtiel didn't possess Walter, he resided within him, inserted by one of the cult leaders who raised Walter; Valtiel's only purpose was to make Walter's murders 'count' as sufficiently holy, he didn't control Walter's actions in any way.

This was because Walter always had special potential just like Alessa did.

I could belive walter split into 2 versions 'because' of the ritual hence released from the bonds of the flesh but not before then. If you can prove it happened with in game evidence cool, but until then ima stick with this explaination.

You clearly don't understand what being released from the bonds of the flesh means; all it means is that it lets him transcend physical form and make his own world.

How do you expect him, by the way, to complete the ritual by taking his own corpse as a GHOST, when the whole point of the ritual is to free himself from the bonds of the flesh? By the way, he committed the ritual after he killed himself, since after the ritual, he put his body in Room 302.

Your move. I don't need to provide evidence yet because your idea doesn't even make sense with the games. Walter needed to have a body for the ritual, despite having already killed himself. Moreover, people saw him moving things into Room 302 for the ritual, so he wasn't a ghost.

<-- where is this coming from ?

Because there isn't three or four Walters, and he only has one corpse.

We see the young Walter and the Adult Walter Sullivan throughout the game.
The "split" happened only once.

We know that a split happened when Eileen was attacked, because until that point, every character Henry meets treats Young Walter as Adult Walter, and after Braintree dies, Adult Walter and Little Walter are standing in the same place, staring at Eileen's apartment, if you leave the Building World and go to Henry's room.

Meaning that at this point in the story, both Walters are occupying the same space at the same time.

They're the same entity, until they divide. It is only until Eileen, Walter's only attachment to the world, becomes threatened that Walter becomes sufficiently internally struggled to divide into two entities.

Interestingly, the same sort of conflict happened after he killed the Locane children. "I did it, but it wasn't me!"

By the way, I'd like people to explain this line, since Walter is in full control of his actions throughout the game.

[SAQOA]

I just dont believe Valtiel to be evil, more neutral.

I agree. I have always followed the idea that Walter overtook Valtiel somewhat. They say Valtiel was planted in walters mind, yet if its Valtiel killing, why did Valtiel kill the 2 kids?

The 2 kids were not sinners, and the blood of 'ten sinners' is needed. Walter was not performing the 21 sacriments, he was performing the 21 heresies. Valtiel would not mess up the chance of birthing god. Also the twins are not a 'victim' ghost in the otherworld, they can be killed and are many, they are just like a normal monster. however the correct victims involved in the 21 sacriments remain as undying ghosts.

[Xev]

How true. Maybe they are the real reason why Walter split into child form and adult.

[AuraTwilight]

They're not, Eileen is.

The children's death counted as Sacraments, but Walter was torn up about it. It was his own guilt that messed him up, not that they 'weren't sinners.' Due to Valtiel's presence, Walter has the right to judge anyone as a sinner that he desires for the sake of his ritual, which is why he targets people who's wronged him personally in life, and who generally he wants t oget revenge against.

[SAQOA]

You clearly don't understand what being released from the bonds of the flesh means; all it means is that it lets him transcend physical form and make his own world.

Okay sure, weither he was in the otherworld, or walters world, or the real world he still had a 'physical form' that was capiable of hurting people(he killed victims right?), so he did 'transcend physical form' but he wasent a ghost in the sence of 'i cant touch people or objects in other worlds' He must of found a way to interact with the real world still. Valtiel being in walters mind may have been a reason he could travel back to the real world, to perform the ritual in room 302.

How do you expect him, by the way, to complete the ritual by taking his own corpse as a GHOST, when the whole point of the ritual is to free himself from the bonds of the flesh? .

Ghosts in the otherworld and in the silent hill games dont act as ghosts you see in old movies that cant touch things, in silent hill ghosts can interact with in real world I belive the point of the ritual was for walter to create 'his own world' - which is much like the otherworld but one ONLY he can control, not god, not valtiel, just walter.

By the way, he committed the ritual after he killed himself, since after the ritual, he put his body in Room 302

Its not FACT that he performed the ritual after he killed himself he could have done it in prison., but by looking at the evidence, it seems to me he performed the ritual of the holy assumption in after he killed himself, in room 302, all the items are their along with the cults bible, most of the items to do with silent hill 2s rebirth ritual are there too. The only way he could have got back to room 302 from being dead would be by traveling useing the otherworld. How else would you explain it then?

Your move. I don't need to provide evidence yet because your idea doesn't even make sense with the games.

That would be your opinion, but i would advise useing in game evidence because otherwise your ideas dont make sense with the games.

Walter needed to have a body for the ritual, despite having already killed himself..

Yup and he still had a physical form, from the otherworld, and could travel back into the real world.

Moreover, people saw him moving things into Room 302 for the ritual, so he wasn't a ghost

You cant seem to grasp the idea that the ghosts in silent hill have physical form :/ You say here he did the ritual in room 302, but yet above you said and i quote .

By the way, he committed the ritual after he killed himself, since after the ritual, he put his body in Room 302

So youve just made an epic contradiction. But yeah as for the people seeing him moving stuff into room 302, ghosts in silent hill seem to have a 'physical form' do not all the walter victims that are also called 'ghosts' have a physical form? Im not sure how walter got past joseph tho, or even if joseph was living there, eitherway old man sunderland dident report any break ins - or at least theres no in game evidence of it - and walter dident have a key, could it be possable he used the otherworld to get there.

Because there isn't three or four Walters, and he only has one corpse.

Okay you said ''and had to recombine to perform the ritual'' but yet theres no ingame evidence to show walters split before, i would ask you to show me some, but i know there is none. Since they never split, they never needed to recombine.

We know that a split happened when Eileen was attacked, because until that point, every character Henry meets treats Young Walter as Adult Walter

Thats a pretty good point, but i'l stick with the idea that young walter is simply a manifestation of the good left in walter, since when briantree dies young walter disappears like a memory, almost like the memorys of chery from sh1. And when walter dies, doesent the boy simply disappear?

They're the same entity, until they divide. It is only until Eileen, Walter's only attachment to the world, becomes threatened that Walter becomes sufficiently internally struggled to divide into two entities.

Youve got a good point, and you could have added mentioning the scene where walter says something like 'i got this from miss galvin, a long time ago' - walters speaking like the child does. But the thing that ruins this is the fact that the little boy is in the mindset of waaaay back from when walter was a kid, in a sense it is just a physical memory. Why would eileen tell the little boy 'you need to get out of here its not safe' - yet walter was the only threat there, not the little boy. It just doesent make sense, wouldent have eileen seen walters split infront of her?

Interestingly, the same sort of conflict happened after he killed the Locane children. "I did it, but it wasn't me!"

By the way, I'd like people to explain this line, since Walter is in full control of his actions throughout the game.

Im not sure, could be valtiel, but i dont see why valtiel would do it on behalf of walter.

But its the same as if i punch my girlfriend in the face 'i did it, but it wasent me!' - could simply be a metaphor for 'i dident mean to do it, but i just felt like it at the time, its not really something ide normaly do', doesent have to mean walter split, and even then: Theres no proof he did split, and how would he have done it 'before' he gained the powers of heaven? Theres no proof he did split ever anyway, young walter could just be a manifestation of well... young walter :/

Edit: sorry for bad grammer im half asleep -_-

[AuraTwilight]

Okay sure, weither he was in the otherworld, or walters world, or the real world he still had a 'physical form' that was capiable of hurting people(he killed victims right?), so he did 'transcend physical form' but he wasent a ghost in the sence of 'i cant touch people or objects in other worlds' He must of found a way to interact with the real world still. Valtiel being in walters mind may have been a reason he could travel back to the real world, to perform the ritual in room 302.

In all likelihood Valtiel probably left Walter's mind after the tenth sacrifice or so, given that Walter had an SH2-style Otherworld experience (probably how he split in half) and Valtiel shows up in SH3, which happens afterwards.

To be released from the bonds of the flesh is to make a kingdom out of his mind. His body no longer matters because he's a divine king of a world he created. The Walter that chases Henry is still something you can touch, but so what? He can be anywhere and do nearly anything. He has flesh, but it doesn't bind him.

Ghosts in the otherworld and in the silent hill games dont act as ghosts you see in old movies that cant touch things, in silent hill ghosts can interact with in real world I belive the point of the ritual was for walter to create 'his own world' - which is much like the otherworld but one ONLY he can control, not god, not valtiel, just walter.

All the ghosts we've seen in the Otherworld have been unable to pass for human. What makes Walter's ghost so damn special?

Its not FACT that he performed the ritual after he killed himself he could have done it in prison., but by looking at the evidence, it seems to me he performed the ritual of the holy assumption in after he killed himself, in room 302, all the items are their along with the cults bible, most of the items to do with silent hill 2s rebirth ritual are there too. The only way he could have got back to room 302 from being dead would be by traveling useing the otherworld. How else would you explain it then?

All the equipment for the ritual is found in Room 302. How the fuck can you perform an occult ritual while in jail?

"Hey, uh, can I borrow some sheep's blood, some White Claudia, and some occult books describing how to murder people?"

"Oh, sure, I don't see the harm."

Walter divided in half. His guilty/less evil half killed itself, satisfying the 11th Sacrement (which seems to need to happen before the ritual is performed one way or another; perhaps the ritual was intended for someone to perform it on the dead person's behalf?)

The other Walter takes his body to Room 302, the ritual is performed, the two seem to recombine and ascend to a world of his own making. Cue the events of the game. I don't see what's so difficult about this.

That would be your opinion, but i would advise useing in game evidence because otherwise your ideas dont make sense with the games.

Yes, they do. You've been unable to explain why my ideas don't make sense. Only that you don't like them.

Yup and he still had a physical form, from the otherworld, and could travel back into the real world.

And where's the support for this? Why does the Otherworld give him another body? Why can things from the Otherworld just walk into reality now? Are you saying that something like Maria or Pyramid Head could enter the real world too? If not, why can Walter's new Otherworld body?

So youve just made an epic contradiction. But yeah as for the people seeing him moving stuff into room 302, ghosts in silent hill seem to have a 'physical form' do not all the walter victims that are also called 'ghosts' have a physical form? Im not sure how walter got past joseph tho, or even if joseph was living there, eitherway old man sunderland dident report any break ins - or at least theres no in game evidence of it - and walter dident have a key, could it be possable he used the otherworld to get there.

There's no contradiction. One of the Walters is dead. One is still alive. Living Walter drags dead Walter to Room 302. Joseph probably wasn't living there, and picking the lock to a door isn't difficult at all.

Either way you have to explain how Walter got a whole fucking refrigerator into the Room 302. Is it an Otherworld Fridge? That's silly.

Okay you said ''and had to recombine to perform the ritual'' but yet theres no ingame evidence to show walters split before, i would ask you to show me some, but i know there is none. Since they never split, they never needed to recombine.

"I did it, but it wasn't me!"

You still haven't been able to respond to this; but I'm responding to this post as I read it. Either way, the idea is supported because otherwise we have a plothole of a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost.

Also, why is Walter able to keep his mental faculties when the other ghosts don't? They're certainly not physical, they phase through fucking walls. Henry being able to beat them up temporarily doesn't mean anything since Henry is DREAMING, and is thus an astral projection of himself.

Thats a pretty good point, but i'l stick with the idea that young walter is simply a manifestation of the good left in walter, since when briantree dies young walter disappears like a memory, almost like the memorys of chery from sh1. And when walter dies, doesent the boy simply disappear?

This makes no sense, if only because trying to divide Walter into good and evil is a logistical nightmare. Young Walter represents his attachment to the Mommy concept, which is both the Room and Eileen herself. Young Walter isn't compassionate, self-sacrificing, kind, or even sweet. He's a scared, selfish little boy that's only out for his own personal happiness (like most children); at best he's neutral.

He disappears not because he's a memory, but because WALTER DIED, and the magic keeping his world together was disrupted.

Youve got a good point, and you could have added mentioning the scene where walter say something like 'i got this from miss galvin, a long time ago' - walters speaking like the child does, but the thing that ruins this is the fact that the little boy is in the mindset of waaaay back from when walter was a kid, in a sense it is just a physical memory. Why would eileen tell the little boy 'you need to get out of here its not safe' - when walter being the only threat there, not there little boy. It just doesent make sense, wouldent have eileen seem walters split infront of her?

Why would Walter split right in front of her? It's not like his soul is an amoeba that has to divide via mitosis. Maybe when Walter was beating her up, a door opened and a little boy ran inside. Or maybe she's too busy having her brains beaten in to really give a shit or even be able to see the even happening one way or another?

Eileen tells Young Walter that it's not safe because he's a kid, to her. At the time she has no idea what he is. All she knows is this place isn't safe and there's a little kid here, so she tells him to go.

Im not sure, could be valtiel, but i dont see why valtiel would do it on behalf of walter. Same as if i punch my girlfriend in the face 'i did it, but it wasent me!' - could simply be a metaphor for 'i dident mean to do it, but i just felt like it at the time, its not really something ide normaly do',

That's really dumb. We received that line of dialog for a reason. To the point that Team Silent made a whole game based on that line of dialog, and you're going to write it off as "Well, maybe it just means he flipped out suddenly."

Even though he only did so once, and never again, ever?

And Valtiel doesn't control Walter's actions. Not ever. We've been over this.

doesent have to mean walter split, and even then: Theres no proof he did split, and how would he have done it 'before' gain the powers of heaven? Theres no proof he did split ever anyway, young walter could just be a manifestation of well... young walter :/

Young Walter and Adult Walter talk to each other, so he split atleast once. It's just a matter of deducing if he did it more than once.

And you don't need the Powers of Heaven to split yourself. Walter's been to a place called Silent Hill. You know, the place where people have split before? Like Alessa? Yea.

Also Young Walter can't just be a memory of himself as a child because Walter was 19 years old when he met Eileen Galvin. This child is drawing on information he shouldn't have, and embodies the most core desires of Walter's sense of self. He's a division, dude.

[SAQOA]

In all likelihood Valtiel probably left Walter's mind after the tenth sacrifice or so, given that Walter had an SH2-style Otherworld experience (probably how he split in half) and Valtiel shows up in SH3, which happens afterwards.

Walter may have had an otherworld experience, but how would that have split him in 2? O_o. True Valtiel shows up afterwards in silent hill 3 but that doesent conferm that valtiel left his mind. Or that Valtiel had stopped helping him. The only evidence that would point to valtiel disagreeing with walters actions would be a sentence walter said around that time ''Hes trying to punish me hes trying to kill me .. the red devil'' And that 'red devil' wont be jimmy stone, why would jimmy stone be trying to kill walter? - makes no sense. Eitherway its not 100% that valtiel left walters mind before the ritual of holy assumption.

To be released from the bonds of the flesh is to make a kingdom out of his mind. His body no longer matters because he's a divine king of a world he created. The Walter that chases Henry is still something you can touch, but so what? He can be anywhere and do nearly anything. He has flesh, but it doesn't bind him.

Its says in silent hill 4 ''he created a world'' and infact in that world he wasent a divine king, he had a physical form, which 'did' matter becuase that physcial form is how he killed his remaining victims. And his flesh in that world DID bind him, because i kicked his fucking ass on every occasion i saw him, even when i (henry) was the last sacriment, i kicked his ass, walter dident try very hard to finish his work, and considering he was meant to be 'divine king' and you say his flesh did not blind him, then how come at the last boss fight he dident just make knifes fly at henry? Or for unbeatable monsters to kill henry? or iron bars or rotting otherworld things to hold henry down so walter could pop him? Or why not walter transform into a massive demon to stomp on henry? Because walter, even in his own version of the otherworld, was bound by his flesh, after all he did have to use manmade weapons to 'attempt' to finish his work and kill henry. So yeah 'he has flesh but it doesent bind him' doesent apply here. And his physical form in that world was the 'most important thing that mattered'

All the ghosts we've seen in the Otherworld have been unable to pass for human. What makes Walter's ghost so damn special?

Alessa's ghost/manifestation took on a human appearence did it not? Marys ghost took on human form.. What makes walters ghost so special? He did the ritual of holy assumption, and furthermore walters victims, are victims... they are supposed to be all messed up, walter commited suicide, he was never a victim.

All the equipment for the ritual is found in Room 302. How the fuck can you perform an occult ritual while in jail?

"Hey, uh, can I borrow some sheep's blood, some White Claudia, and some occult books describing how to murder people?"

"Oh, sure, I don't see the harm."

Thats the point i made anyway, the ritual seems to have been done in room 302, i was just saying its not fact. Anyway arnt you going against your own idea? You said walter performed the ritual THEN went to room 302, but later you said he bought the stuff TO room 302 for the ritual, which is it? :/
See look

Moreover, people saw him moving things into Room 302 for the ritual, so he wasn't a ghost

..

By the way, he committed the ritual after he killed himself, since after the ritual, he put his body in Room 302

But yet you said he needed his physical body to perform the ritual? Why not just use his other split version you claim he has. :/ If you say 'because of the otherworld', your proving my point, yet your saying ''how can he do it if hes dead'' ? Yet your also saying ''he wasent a ghost because people saw him moving things into the room'' Lol. so the only other thing he could be is 'still alive' or he did it by existing in the otherworld after he died...until he could perform the ritual.

Walter divided in half. His guilty/less evil half killed itself, satisfying the 11th Sacrement (which seems to need to happen before the ritual is performed one way or another; perhaps the ritual was intended for someone to perform it on the dead person's behalf?)

Theres no evidence that walter split in half before the ritual of the holy assumption. Keep in mind the 11th sacrament is called 'assumption' - assumption of his death i see it being as.

The other Walter takes his body to Room 302, the ritual is performed, the two seem to recombine and ascend to a world of his own making. Cue the events of the game. I don't see what's so difficult about this.

Okay so first of how the hell did walter 'ever' split himself without gaining some kind of power? People cant just decide when they want to split into lots of people, this is silent hill, not xmen, if i could do that ide go down the shop and get some cigs while replying. Secondly, by your logic, if walter split, and the dead body of walter was identifed and was the man, are you telling me the little boy ragged all that stuff into room 302 when the game states 'a man with a long coat was seen' which also makes it unlikly it was someone other than walter at the age (24) when he died.

Yes, they do. You've been unable to explain why my ideas don't make sense. Only that you don't like them.

Once again thats your opinion sir :/ Its got nothing to do with like or not like, i like all opinions on this forum, it really intrests me to see someone elses view on something, best way to learn and test yourself.

And where's the support for this? Why does the Otherworld give him another body? Why can things from the Otherworld just walk into reality now? Are you saying that something like Maria or Pyramid Head could enter the real world too? If not, why can Walter's new Otherworld body?

Well theres plenty of refference that when you die you go to the otherworld Joseph had another body in the otherworld, that dident attack henry. And so did maria after she was killed the first time. Monsters appeared in silent hill 3s real world at the begining of the game, heather saw 2 different types of monsters in the 'real' world, and no it wasent fog world, theres no fog in sight And it was clearly closing time in the shopping center, the old guy was there, douglas, but everyone else had gone. that explains the lack of people. As for walters body coming from the otherworld back into the real world, im not sure :/ Maybe the same way the otherworld can manifest itself? in areas outside of silent hill?

There's no contradiction. One of the Walters is dead. One is still alive. Living Walter drags dead Walter to Room 302. Joseph probably wasn't living there, and picking the lock to a door isn't difficult at all.

See above for your contradiction. Okay but theres no explaination for them spliting, or being able to split before the ritual. Joseph was living there at the time im sure i read, if not ask Adversary hes got the timeline.

Either way you have to explain how Walter got a whole fucking refrigerator into the Room 302. Is it an Otherworld Fridge? That's silly.

Im saying maybe he used the otherworld to come back into the real world, maybe the same way it can manifest, im not sure. Eitherway walter was seen draging stuff into the room, and i very very highly doubt it was 'another walter' considering theres no ingame evidence to support him splitting intro 2 people before the ritual of holy assumption. Infact theres no ingame evidence of him splitting into 2 people ever, young walter may just be a manifestation of the good in walter. Once again by your logical of it being young walter and big walter, since big walter is dead, how does the young walter drag all that stuff intro room 302? Lol

"I did it, but it wasn't me!"

You still haven't been able to respond to this; but I'm responding to this post as I read it. Either way, the idea is supported because otherwise we have a plothole of a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost.

This does not conferm let alone even hint at walter splitting into 2 versions of himself. What it does hint at, is that the red devil (pyramid head) did it or caused the killings and that walter got the blame, considering that memo was writtern way before sh4, and would be a refference to the idea of pyramid head being a killer. pyramid head later killing maria, but we find out its james who killed mary. the connection of pyramid heaad being the killer, or the killer being pyramid head. More hinting of this would be as james picks up anglias knife, pyramid head has a version of it next time. James could get arrested for the murder of maria, and easly say 'i did it but it wasent me'. 'i did it but it wasent me' could have meant anything. As for plothole of ''a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost'' that would be: a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost that then creates his own world that only he can control Walter only carrys on the killings once he makes his own world free of rules of who he can and cannot kill, maybe.

Also, why is Walter able to keep his mental faculties when the other ghosts don't? They're certainly not physical, they phase through fucking walls. Henry being able to beat them up temporarily doesn't mean anything since Henry is DREAMING, and is thus an astral projection of himself.

Lol why the hell are you asking me? If your talking about the ghosts from walters world then im not sure, maybe because walter did the ritual of holy assumption giving him 'powers of heaven'. And yes the ghosts ARE physical, they hit henry, and henry hits them. And henry isent dreaming, all the times harry was slipping in and out of worlds in silent hill 1.. he wasent dreaming. Waking up from a dream is like an explanation of coming back intro the room. Your astral projection theory is very nice but its invald, because henry is able to bring back PHYSICAL items from the otherworld, which you can put in the chest. Eitherway theres no talk 'in sh4' of astral projection so i dont even know why you brung that into the game, it hasent even been proven in real life, you know.

This makes no sense, if only because trying to divide Walter into good and evil is a logistical nightmare. Young Walter represents his attachment to the Mommy concept, which is both the Room and Eileen herself. Young Walter isn't compassionate, self-sacrificing, kind, or even sweet. He's a scared, selfish little boy that's only out for his own personal happiness (like most children); at best he's neutral.

He disappears not because he's a memory, but because WALTER DIED, and the magic keeping his world together was disrupted.

Walter died > the world dies > memory dies or other version of walter dies > so to do the monsters i expect. your not disproving anything im saying :/
Young walter is sweet and kind and polite ^_^ When has young walter shown any hint of being selfish? he just wants to see his mum Lol.

Why would Walter split right in front of her? It's not like his soul is an amoeba that has to divide via mitosis. Maybe when Walter was beating her up, a door opened and a little boy ran inside. Or maybe she's too busy having her brains beaten in to really give a shit or even be able to see the even happening one way or another?

Eileen tells Young Walter that it's not safe because he's a kid, to her. At the time she has no idea what he is. All she knows is this place isn't safe and there's a little kid here, so she tells him to go.

This Still doesent prove walter split in 2 at 'that' point. If walter ever split in 2, and the younger version was made, it would be at the same time as around the ritual. Eileen would have nothing to do with it, and her being the mother reborn would have no effect on walter splitting because the damage was done, he already beat the crap outta her. What did walter say ''Little walter could you come in here for a second? just so i can beat the crap outta eileen and she knows its not you? Thanks buddy'' Big point here If little walter is a divide of walter, then how come he doesent know about the 21 sacraments?

walter - ''My names walter''
little walter - ''thats my name, and what are the 21 sacraments? o.o''

Little walter has not heard of the 21 sacraments and big walter has, meaning big walter is: walter, and little walter is a memory of BEFORE HE EVEN KNEW about the 21 sacraments.

That's really dumb. We received that line of dialog for a reason. To the point that Team Silent made a whole game based on that line of dialog, and you're going to write it off as "Well, maybe it just means he flipped out suddenly."

Its really dumb to say that team silent made a whole game based off the sh2 memo, when the game silent hill was originaly called 'room 302' and was not intended to be a silent hill game, they changhed it halfway through Lol. and at the time that memo was wrote, sh4 wasent being planned, let alone the game 'room 302' :/

Even though he only did so once, and never again, ever?

Im saying walter should have known the kids werent sinners, how dumb must walter be? ''the blood of ten sinners'' - the kids werent sinners. ''hes trying to punish me ... the red devil''. Yeah walter fucked up big. im not saying walter snapped, im just saying i dont think he meant to really kill the kids.

And Valtiel doesn't control Walter's actions. Not ever. We've been over this.

I agree. But it makes you wondder why valtiel was even mentioned as being inserted into walters head? What so he could not do anything?

Young Walter and Adult Walter talk to each other, so he split atleast once. It's just a matter of deducing if he did it more than once.

Good point, but because young walter doesent know about the 21 sacriments but big walter does.. i still feel young is just a memory/manifestation of good walter.

And you don't need the Powers of Heaven to split yourself. Walter's been to a place called Silent Hill. You know, the place where people have split before? Like Alessa? Yea.

ROLFCOPTER Are you saying that if you go to silent hill you come out with super powers such as splitting into 2 versions of yourself? By that logic, james, heather, alex, and travis can all now split into 2 versions of themselfs? LOL No. We all know 'why' alessa split into 2, its because of the ritual performed in silent hill 0, that combined with the seal of metatron which was the power that was keeping her alive. Alessa splits because of a ritual, just like walter splits because of a ritual, 'if' he did split.

Also Young Walter can't just be a memory of himself as a child because Walter was 19 years old when he met Eileen Galvin. This child is drawing on information he shouldn't have, and embodies the most core desires of Walter's sense of self. He's a division, dude.

Cool why mention that, at what point does little walter relay infomation to eileen galvin?

Half of the points you are making do not make sense and you endup contradicting things you said before -_______-

[AuraTwilight]

Walter may have had an otherworld experience, but how would that have split him in 2? O_o. True Valtiel shows up afterwards in silent hill 3 but that doesent conferm that valtiel left his mind. Or that Valtiel had stopped helping him. The only evidence that would point to valtiel disagreeing with walters actions would be a sentence walter said around that time ''Hes trying to punish me hes trying to kill me .. the red devil'' And that 'red devil' wont be jimmy stone, why would jimmy stone be trying to kill walter? - makes no sense. Eitherway its not 100% that valtiel left walters mind before the ritual of holy assumption.

1) The same reason Alessa split in two. Or the same reason James and Travis have "Judgement/Shadow" figures. Walter is emotionally divided between his desires and his guilt, and you need further reason why he'd split into two?

2) You're misunderstanding Valtiel's role in all this. He doesn't control, help, guide, or do anything. He's a witness. A sort of 'co-signer' who says "Yea, this is part of the ritual, not just a senseless murder'. So he marks the first ten signs. The 11th Sacrament has to be yourself, so a witness isn't necessary, and then after that, all the victims are people he draws into his own world, where he's King and he makes the goddamn rules. After the tenth Sacrament, he no longer needs an authority to validate his actions.

3) The Red Devil is Jimmy Stone, canonically. There's no point even arguing this. Moreover, Jimmy Stone represents pretty much everything Walter fears, reviles, and loathes. Maybe he saw a manifestation of him in his Otherworld experience? Either way, it's not Valtiel.

Its says in silent hill 4 ''he created a world'' and infact in that world he wasent a divine king, he had a physical form, which 'did' matter becuase that physcial form is how he killed his remaining victims. And his flesh in that world DID bind him, because i kicked his fucking ass on every occasion i saw him, even when i (henry) was the last sacriment, i kicked his ass, walter dident try very hard to finish his work, and considering he was meant to be 'divine king' and you say his flesh did not blind him, then how come at the last boss fight he dident just make knifes fly at henry? Or for unbeatable monsters to kill henry? or iron bars or rotting otherworld things to hold henry down so walter could pop him? Or why not walter transform into a massive demon to stomp on henry? Because walter, even in his own version of the otherworld, was bound by his flesh, after all he did have to use manmade weapons to 'attempt' to finish his work and kill henry. So yeah 'he has flesh but it doesent bind him' doesent apply here. And his physical form in that world was the 'most important thing that mattered'

He's king in that world. He controls it, and sets the rules. It's a world in flux that grows wildly, but it does so in accordance with his will and subconscious. That physical form isn't his True Self, the Flesh he Released the Bonds Of, so the fact that he has it is irrelevant. You're clinging to the letter of the word and not the spirit; Walter is immortal. He's free from the bonds of the flesh, and he can teleport anywhere he wants and do things no human can do. For fucks sake, what else does he need to do? Being free from the bonds of your flesh doesn't mean you're fucking omnipotent. Stop acting childish and take into account what the words mean, not what you want them to mean for your argument.

Alessa's ghost/manifestation took on a human appearence did it not? Marys ghost took on human form.. What makes walters ghost so special? He did the ritual of holy assumption, and furthermore walters victims, are victims... they are supposed to be all messed up, walter commited suicide, he was never a victim.

Alessa wasn't a ghost, she was an astral projection. And it's arguable if we ever met Mary's ghost or just a figment of James' imagination.

You've already argued that Walter performed the ritual AFTER he died, meaning he did it with a ghost. He can't gain the benefits of something before he did it. You're contradicting yourself.

Walter is 11/21. He's a victim.

Thats the point i made anyway, the ritual seems to have been done in room 302, i was just saying its not fact. Anyway arnt you going against your own idea? You said walter performed the ritual THEN went to room 302, but later you said he bought the stuff TO room 302 for the ritual, which is it? :/

You're....grossly misunderstanding me. Let me put this very clearly.

1) Walter divides into two.
2) Guilty Walter kills himself. Sociopath Walter digs up his double's corpse, and drags it, and other supplies, to Room 302.
3) The ritual is performed.
4) Their corpse is bound and preserved, and presumably their bodies recombine into a True Body, and the combined Walter Identity ascends to a new world.

But yet you said he needed his physical body to perform the ritual? Why not just use his other split version you claim he has. :/ If you say 'because of the otherworld', your proving my point, yet your saying ''how can he do it if hes dead'' ? Yet your also saying ''he wasent a ghost because people saw him moving things into the room'' Lol. so the only other thing he could be is 'still alive' or he did it by existing in the otherworld after he died...until he could perform the ritual.

See above. He DID use his other split version for the ritual, but Walter's whole self needs to be present, including his dead half-twin.

Walter was still alive. He was also dead. This is because Walter was two people.

Theres no evidence that walter split in half before the ritual of the holy assumption. Keep in mind the 11th sacrament is called 'assumption' - assumption of his death i see it being as.

Yes there is. And Assumption means "Ascension" in this context. Stop being willfully ignorant.

Okay so first of how the hell did walter 'ever' split himself without gaining some kind of power? People cant just decide when they want to split into lots of people, this is silent hill, not xmen, if i could do that ide go down the shop and get some cigs while replying. Secondly, by your logic, if walter split, and the dead body of walter was identifed and was the man, are you telling me the little boy ragged all that stuff into room 302 when the game states 'a man with a long coat was seen' which also makes it unlikly it was someone other than walter at the age (24) when he died.

Alessa managed to split into two, and she didn't have the Power of Heaven. Ask her.

Also, Walter is described as having "greater potential" than Alessa. So surely Walter can do anything Alessa can do plus a little bit more. But of course, this is assuming he did it himself. Why can't the Otherworld do it TO him? Stop strawmanning my arguments.

And, no, i'm not saying the little boy was the first split. Both Walters were adults, then they recombined, then they divided into Adult and Young Walter.

Double splits two implausible? Heather and Memory of Alessa say hi.

This does not conferm let alone even hint at walter splitting into 2 versions of himself. What it does hint at, is that the red devil (pyramid head) did it or caused the killings and that walter got the blame, considering that memo was writtern way before sh4, and would be a refference to the idea of pyramid head being a killer. pyramid head later killing maria, but we find out its james who killed mary. the connection of pyramid heaad being the killer, or the killer being pyramid head. More hinting of this would be as james picks up anglias knife, pyramid head has a version of it next time. James could get arrested for the murder of maria, and easly say 'i did it but it wasent me'. 'i did it but it wasent me' could have meant anything. As for plothole of ''a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost'' that would be: a ghost performing a ritual in order to become a ghost that then creates his own world that only he can control

Team Silent have said that the Red Devil is not Pyramid Head. Stop being ignorant.

"Being released from the bonds of the flesh" and "creating your own world" are two entirely different things. The more I talk with you the more it appears that you misunderstand things.

Lol why the hell are you asking me? If your talking about the ghosts from walters world then im not sure, maybe because walter did the ritual of holy assumption giving him 'powers of heaven'. And yes the ghosts ARE physical, they hit henry, and henry hits them. And henry isent dreaming, all the times harry was slipping in and out of worlds in silent hill 1.. he wasent dreaming. Waking up from a dream is like an explanation of coming back intro the room. Your astral projection theory is very nice but its invald, because henry is able to bring back PHYSICAL items from the otherworld, which you can put in the chest. Eitherway theres no talk 'in sh4' of astral projection so i dont even know why you brung that into the game, it hasent even been proven in real life, you know.

I'm talking about, like, every Silent Hill ghost ever. No other SH ghost gets to enjoy the priviledges Walter does.

SHIT, no other SH ghost got to leave the Otherworld. Why the hell does Walter get to?

Henry doesn't bring items back from the Otherworld; Room 302 is part of it. Didn't you notice, what with the hauntings and how no one can see or hear him in his apartment and how Walter can control what happens inside it?

What the fuck does real life have to do with anything? Are you going insane while you type your posts?

Astral Projection happens in SH4. Notice how people in SH4 are like...ASLEEP IN REALITY while in Walter's world? Because they make a big deal of that.

Walter died > the world dies > memory dies or other version of walter dies > so to do the monsters i expect. your not disproving anything im saying :/
Young walter is sweet and kind and polite ^_^ When has young walter shown any hint of being selfish? he just wants to see his mum Lol.

What about in the second-worst ending? Both Walters die, but the Otherworld keeps existing because the Room is still haunted.

Walter is none of those things. He's selfish because all he cares about is being happy. Selfish doesn't mean EVIL, it means being self-interested. Adult Walter, ironically, is infact SELFLESS, since his only motive is to give Young Walter his mother. Young Walter, however, never displays any sweetness, kindness, or politeness. What he IS, is shy and scared of grownups, and protective of Eileen, but the latter is only because she was nice to him once, and he doesn't seem to care that she's being possessed by him.

This Still doesent prove walter split in 2 at 'that' point. If walter ever split in 2, and the younger version was made, it would be at the same time as around the ritual. Eileen would have nothing to do with it, and her being the mother reborn would have no effect on walter splitting because the damage was done, he already beat the crap outta her. What did walter say ''Little walter could you come in here for a second? just so i can beat the crap outta eileen and she knows its not you? Thanks buddy'' Big point here If little walter is a divide of walter, then how come he doesent know about the 21 sacraments?

If the two were split, then why does Andrew DeSalvo beg Young Walter for mercy, when Adult Walter is the one trying to kill him?

The intent was to kill Eileen. She did not die. She is alive, even if she is beaten. What, you expected a child to overpower an adult entirely so that Eileen never got a finger laid on her? Cut'em some slack, lol.

I'm not saying Adult Walter arranged it, you're being strawman-y again. The idea is that Walter tried to hurt Eileen, and Young Walter manifested as a separate entity because a part of Walter doesn't want to kill her.

Young Walter doesn't know the things Adult Walter knows for the same reason Cheryl doesn't know things Alessa knows. Do I have to explain everything?

Little walter has not heard of the 21 sacraments and big walter has, meaning big walter is: walter, and little walter is a memory of BEFORE HE EVEN KNEW about the 21 sacraments.

And yet Little Walter knows about Eileen, who Walter met when he was an adult. He's an aspect of his soul, but just because that aspect is shaped like himself as a seven year old (or however old he's supposed to be), doesn't mean that he knows what he does when he was that age. The childlike appearance is only symbolic for the fact that he's a childlike mind.

Its really dumb to say that team silent made a whole game based off the sh2 memo, when the game silent hill was originaly called 'room 302' and was not intended to be a silent hill game, they changhed it halfway through Lol. and at the time that memo was wrote, sh wasent being planned, let alone the game 'room 302' :/

Not true, Silent Hill 4 was always intended to be a Silent Hill game, that was actually a rumor that got out of hand.

Even if it was the case, the plot was written entirely for Silent Hill, so it doesn't matter.

Im saying walter should have known the kids werent sinners, how dumb must walter be? ''the blood of ten sinners'' - the kids werent sinners. ''hes trying to punish me ... the red devil''. Yeah walter fucked up big. im not saying walter snapped, im just saying i dont think he meant to really kill the kids.

Maybe the kids were witnesses to one of his murders. Maybe he was jealous of their happy life and he lost his temper. Who the hell knows? But he did it, and he was fully in control of himself when he did so. It's not like someone took over his body and forced him to do it.

I agree. But it makes you wondder why valtiel was even mentioned as being inserted into walters head? What so he could not do anything?

See above.

ROLFCOPTER Are you saying that if you go to silent hill you come out with super powers such as splitting into 2 versions of yourself? By that logic, james, heather, alex, and travis can all now split into 2 versions of themselfs? LOL No. We all know 'why' alessa split into 2, its because of the ritual performed in silent hill 0, that combined with the seal of metatron which was the power that was keeping her alive. Alessa splits because of a ritual, just like walter splits because of a ritual, 'if' he did split.

Can you stop being a rude little dipshit and listen to what I'm actually writing for a minute? Walter has powers like Alessa does. The Otherworld can change people with it's own powers. Walter, a person with internal conflict, visited a realm of existence that makes the contents of your minds come true. What is so hard to figure it out.

Alessa didn't split because of the ritual. The intent of that ritual was to birth God, and Alessa divided herself on purpose to sabotage the ritual, because unless her soul is complete, God cannot be born.

Cool why mention that, at what point does little walter relay infomation to eileen galvin?

I....never said he did. I said that Walter draws on information he shouldn't have. Meaning, he knows things he doesn't know when he was a child. Young Walter should not know who Eileen is, but he DOES. And Young Walter read the 21 Sacraments as a child, but he doesn't know them here. This isn't a memory of himself as a child, because it doesn't match his personal history as a child. It is an aspect of himself that represents how he sees himself. A dissociation of how he sees himself as "a victim of a mean, shitty world that keeps me from Mommy" from himself as "A cold-blooded murderer who will kill dozens of people to get what he wants."

Half of the points you are making do not make sense and you endup contradicting things you said before -_______-

No, you're merely misunderstanding them, as demonstrated directly above. You are somehow unable to understand basic words somehow, to the point that I question your ability to hold a conversation in the English language.

[SHF]

Valtiel didn't possess Walter, he resided within him, inserted by one of the cult leaders who raised Walter; Valtiel's only purpose was to make Walter's murders 'count' as sufficiently holy, he didn't control Walter's actions in any way.
^
Valtiel was snuck into Walter's subconscious. That's what I meant by possessed.


We know that a split happened when Eileen was attacked, because until that point, every character Henry meets treats Young Walter as Adult Walter, and after Braintree dies, Adult Walter and Little Walter are standing in the same place, staring at Eileen's apartment, if you leave the Building World and go to Henry's room.
^
No the characters treat Little Walter like Little Walter. Both Richard and Andrew are seen kneeling down to the boy's level while talking to him. They are aware that there are the two forms of Walter.


They're the same entity, until they divide. It is only until Eileen, Walter's only attachment to the world, becomes threatened that Walter becomes sufficiently internally struggled to divide into two entities.
^

Yet we see the young Walter prior to Eileen's attack.

Interestingly, the same sort of conflict happened after he killed the Locane children. "I did it, but it wasn't me!"
^

In silent hill 2, it is stated that Walter said that the Red Devil made him commit the murders. ( the red devil being Jimmy Stone)

While I agree that Walter was in control of his actions, he was brainwashed to believe he would birth his Mother by the Order.

Walter saying " I did it, but it wasn't me!" is him saying that the Order made him believe that he had to perform the 21 Sacraments in order for him to be with his Mother.

The reason why Walter split into 2 entities was nothing more than a split of his conscious mind. The young walter being his caring altruistic side, and the Adult Walter being the heartless, misanthropic killer.

[SAQOA]

1) The same reason Alessa split in two. Or the same reason James and Travis have "Judgement/Shadow" figures. Walter is emotionally divided between his desires and his guilt, and you need further reason why he'd split into two?

Alessa split in 2 because of events in silent hill 0, and it was 'part of her soul was reborn'. james and travis "Judgement/Shadow" figures are not them splitting in 2, they may be manifestations of how they feel. But i doubt james could have killed himself,then pyramid head digs his corpse up drags him to a room and rebirth ect. IF walter split, its got no connection to these other examples. You still have no in game evidence proofing what your claiming, one memo which could mean many different things, and is doubtfull that one prase 'i did it but it wasent me' relates to another walter, and i think would be foolish to make this assumption.

2) You're misunderstanding Valtiel's role in all this. He doesn't control, help, guide, or do anything. He's a witness. A sort of 'co-signer' who says "Yea, this is part of the ritual, not just a senseless murder'. So he marks the first ten signs. The 11th Sacrament has to be yourself, so a witness isn't necessary, and then after that, all the victims are people he draws into his own world, where he's King and he makes the goddamn rules. After the tenth Sacrament, he no longer needs an authority to validate his actions.

Your contrdicting yourself right there ''he marks the first ten victims'' - if someone starts writing the word 'CAT' and i go ''yup you got the letter C spot on mate!'' thats a form of guidence. So your telling me valtiel marked the first ten signs knowing walter killed 2 kids, that were not sinners? Ok

3) The Red Devil is Jimmy Stone, canonically. There's no point even arguing this. Moreover, Jimmy Stone represents pretty much everything Walter fears, reviles, and loathes. Maybe he saw a manifestation of him in his Otherworld experience? Either way, it's not Valtiel.

Could be, but why would you fear something youve killed, i wouldent.

He's king in that world. He controls it, and sets the rules. It's a world in flux that grows wildly, but it does so in accordance with his will and subconscious. That physical form isn't his True Self, the Flesh he Released the Bonds Of, so the fact that he has it is irrelevant. You're clinging to the letter of the word and not the spirit; Walter is immortal. He's free from the bonds of the flesh, and he can teleport anywhere he wants and do things no human can do. For fucks sake, what else does he need to do? Being free from the bonds of your flesh doesn't mean you're fucking omnipotent. Stop acting childish and take into account what the words mean, not what you want them to mean for your argument.

I know that 'that' form of walter is not his true body, but the point im trying to make is that body was very important becuase he used it to kill the other victims, and was his only form of attack. If walter did not need this body, then why did walter not stop henry? surely if he dident need a 'physical form' then that implys he must he king like you ay that controls everything in his world, but yet when henry grabs the spears to kill walter, why doesent walter stop him? surely he could teleport henry somewhere else? Or summon knifes or more walters? heck if you say he can divde more than once what is stopping him? Fact is he needed that physical form which he did infact have, it was flesh, and i have proved this, i dont even prove this, just play silent hill 4 again, theres your proof.

He's free from the bonds of the flesh, and he can teleport anywhere he wants and do things no human can do.

But yet he fights like a human, not a demi god.

You're clinging to the letter of the word and not the spirit; Walter is immortal.

This is a debate where we reason and argue points based on facts and words, words writtern in the game, and evidence shown in the game. Walters long coat form cannot be killed until the spears are stabbed into his true form, this does NOT mean walter is immortal.

Stop acting childish and take into account what the words mean, not what you want them to mean for your argument.

I could say that about you, but i wont, because im not trying to get you to change your opinion on how you see the game, and what theorys you have made gathered on evidence. Its debatable on 'what the words really mean' becuase it always left for the player to discover the meaning. Oh and you still did not address my points, by the way.

Alessa wasn't a ghost, she was an astral projection

So your also saying eileen was in astral projection? Because she was not fully a ghost victim, but partly becomes one here and there for a few seconds, hence the possession. Alessa wasent in astral projection, she was in the otherworld, regardless of where her true body was. since astral projection has not been mentioned in any of the games, leave it out. If your bring the concept in from real life, dont, because it has not been proved to be real, just a hallucination of the mind. And in the in game world of silent hill, the otherworld 'has' been proven to be more than a simple hallucination.

And it's arguable if we ever met Mary's ghost or just a figment of James' imagination.

Go play silent hill 2 again.

You've already argued that Walter performed the ritual AFTER he died, meaning he did it with a ghost. He can't gain the benefits of something before he did it. You're contradicting yourself.

How so? Its only a theory, but walter could have come from the otherworld , to do the ritual, which then makes him enter his own world. As i said i dont know, its just a guess. Theres not enough in game evidence to support what im saying on this point, thats why its a guess.

Walter is 11/21. He's a victim

The victims were killed, they roam as messed up ghosts with zombie like brains, Walter killed himself, and roams as something that looks very human, and can hold a conversation, and doesent have primal instincts to harm anything in the otherworld that moves. See the pattern? Yeah walter isent really a victim, sure hes on the list of 'victims' but i dont see him as a victim, he killed himself.

You're....grossly misunderstanding me. Let me put this very clearly.

1) Walter divides into two.
2) Guilty Walter kills himself. Sociopath Walter digs up his double's corpse, and drags it, and other supplies, to Room 302.
3) The ritual is performed.
4) Their corpse is bound and preserved, and presumably their bodies recombine into a True Body, and the combined Walter Identity ascends to a new world.

Ok gotcha, its certainly possable, but theres not enough in game evidence that points to it for me, so i disagree and hold my own opinions for myself

See above. He DID use his other split version for the ritual, but Walter's whole self needs to be present, including his dead half-twin.

Walter was still alive. He was also dead. This is because Walter was two people.

See above

Yes there is. And Assumption means "Ascension" in this context. Stop being willfully ignorant.

Like the assumption of mary, okay well i never thought of that, which is cool because it spins some ideas i had. But i was not being willfully ignorant. And once again no there is no in game evidence, not enough to back your theory, in my opinion.

Alessa managed to split into two, and she didn't have the Power of Heaven. Ask her.

This is pointless because your not explaining how walter did it without a ritual being performed. Your just loosely hinting at other similarities in other games, and making sound mystical as if you know something we dont, please just tell us.. 'how' walter split, because so far you have not, or produced any evidence, really.

Also, Walter is described as having "greater potential" than Alessa. So surely Walter can do anything Alessa can do plus a little bit more. But of course, this is assuming he did it himself.

The context of what 'greater potential' meant is debatable could just simply mean 'he would be more willing or easyer to influence'' greater potential for what the cult wants to acheive, of course im not saying im right, im probs not, but theres no evidence to say walter had powers before the ritual of the holy assumption.

Why can't the Otherworld do it TO him? Stop strawmanning my arguments.

Otherworld give him powers? Divide him? Possable maybe, but divide him into 2 seperate walters for his own perpose, so he has conscious control over both versions of himself? By your local of what you started at the top of the page: James did not control pyramid head with his conscious, nor did travis control butcher with his conscious, and did Aless controll Cheryl so Cheryl would say 'harry dont go to silent hill otherwise were fucked bro o.o'? nope, so why should walter control his other version? - if they even split. You cant have your cake and eat it..

And, no, i'm not saying the little boy was the first split. Both Walters were adults, then they recombined, then they divided into Adult and Young Walter.

Double splits two implausible? Heather and Memory of Alessa say hi.

That memory of alessa was always there, and will always be a part of the otherworld, and they are 'not' the same, Heather consciously states

'me and you are not alike alessa and its not that i dont remember that sick room either'

^ or something like that, but heather does not consciously CONTROLL the memory of Alessa. Alessa states she wanted to kill heather to prevent the birth of god, then heather states thats not how she 'heather' feels.

Team Silent have said that the Red Devil is not Pyramid Head. Stop being ignorant.

"Being released from the bonds of the flesh" and "creating your own world" are two entirely different things. The more I talk with you the more it appears that you misunderstand things.

Team Silent have said that the Red Devil is not Pyramid Head <-- Show me. There wasent much point in calling jimmy the red devil,then. Book of lost memories states 'only walter knew what he saw' they dont disprove the possibility of it being pyramid head or valtiel.

I'm talking about, like, every Silent Hill ghost ever. No other SH ghost gets to enjoy the priviledges Walter does.

SHIT, no other SH ghost got to leave the Otherworld. Why the hell does Walter get to?

Maria. The ghost in the subway in silent hill 3.

Henry doesn't bring items back from the Otherworld; Room 302 is part of it. Didn't you notice, what with the hauntings and how no one can see or hear him in his apartment and how Walter can control what happens inside it?

Okay thats bs because in room 302 you are safe, yes walter has a certain degree of control, but if he had full control why dident he just kill henry in his house and shut the holes to prevent him from escaping and messwing his paln up? Your also basicly telling me items 'that help henry stop walter in the end' are being materielised BY WALTER...for henry? Lol Im sorry but i think its very safe to say out loud, ''Henry does infact bring back items from the otherworld, and they dont just materielise in room 302''

What the fuck does real life have to do with anything? Are you going insane while you type your posts?

I was trying to make the point your bringing in outside source into our debate, an outside source which most intelligent people regard as a hallucination not proven by facts. And no im not going insane, i went insane long ago.

Astral Projection happens in SH4. Notice how people in SH4 are like...ASLEEP IN REALITY while in Walter's world? Because they make a big deal of that.

Is their a memo in silent hill 4 stateing this? Jasper wasent asleep, neither was eileen, nor cyntha.

What about in the second-worst ending? Both Walters die, but the Otherworld keeps existing because the Room is still haunted.

Maybe because eileen 20/21 dies. And walters second death takes 21/21, and god is born into the room?

Walter is none of those things. He's selfish because all he cares about is being happy. Selfish doesn't mean EVIL, it means being self-interested. Adult Walter, ironically, is infact SELFLESS, since his only motive is to give Young Walter his mother.

No walter is doing it for himself, why would you compare walter whos killed kids, as being selfless, what selfless like a jedi knight~?

If the two were split, then why does Andrew DeSalvo beg Young Walter for mercy, when Adult Walter is the one trying to kill him?

Could have meant anything. Better question, why does mayor barlett call his son joey 'lord' and say 'i only live to serve you my lord, please show mercy'? same concept, but you wont understand it, and declare me mad. Mad as a hatter.

The intent was to kill Eileen. She did not die. She is alive, even if she is beaten. What, you expected a child to overpower an adult entirely so that Eileen never got a finger laid on her? Cut'em some slack, lol.

Why would little water want to stop eileen dying, he doesent even know 'who' she is, he just told her hes looking for his mommy, nothing more, the game indicates nothing more than that.

I'm not saying Adult Walter arranged it, you're being strawman-y again. The idea is that Walter tried to hurt Eileen, and Young Walter manifested as a separate entity because a part of Walter doesn't want to kill her.

could be

Young Walter doesn't know the things Adult Walter knows for the same reason Cheryl doesn't know things Alessa knows. Do I have to explain everything?

But yet you claim young water knows eileen galvin. :s Cheryl dident know these things becuase she was reborn, not manifested into the age of 8, theres a difference.

And yet Little Walter knows about Eileen, who Walter met when he was an adult

dont even try telling me you havent contradicted yourself here.

He's an aspect of his soul, but just because that aspect is shaped like himself as a seven year old (or however old he's supposed to be), doesn't mean that he knows what he does when he was that age. The childlike appearance is only symbolic for the fact that he's a childlike mind.

But yet it really does seem to be a manifestation of walter at that age, and he is 'shocked' to hear that this man is called walter too. And knows nothing of the future, it 'is' a manifestation of young walter.

Not- true, Silent Hill 4 was always intended to be a Silent Hill game, that was actually a rumor that got out of hand.

The rumor of a rumor, was a rumor.

Even if it was the case, the plot was written entirely for Silent Hill, so it doesn't matter.

well most of it was for a game called 'room 302' Fungo brings this point up and team silent contact him and do not mention he is wrong about this, so yeah :/

Maybe the kids were witnesses to one of his murders. Maybe he was jealous of their happy life and he lost his temper. Who the hell knows? But he did it, and he was fully in control of himself when he did so. It's not like someone took over his body and forced him to do it.

But you said he dident lose his temper earlyer.

Can you stop being a rude little dipshit and listen to what I'm actually writing for a minute?

Your the only person being rude here, i never called you a: dipshit And i am reading what your saying and your stating things that are not true.

Walter has powers like Alessa does.

Not proven

The Otherworld can change people with it's own powers.

Not proven, the only thing it can change is their reality, not them.

Walter, a person with internal conflict, visited a realm of existence that makes the contents of your minds come true. What is so hard to figure it out.

Theres no evidence of him visting the otherworld before killing himself, and even if he did, are you telling me the otherworld created a version of him, which he had complete control over, and they left the otherworld, walter 1 kills himself, and walter 2 digs himself up, to room 302, does ritual, combnies, only to later split? The problem is theres not enough evidence to support this, james dident control pyramid head, nor travis control the butcher, and alessa did not controll cheryl or heather. So why can walter controll this new version of himself the otherworld has created?

Alessa didn't split because of the ritual. The intent of that ritual was to birth God, and Alessa divided herself on purpose to sabotage the ritual, because unless her soul is complete, God cannot be born.

Probs

I....never said he did. I said that Walter draws on information he shouldn't have. Meaning, he knows things he doesn't know when he was a child. Young Walter should not know who Eileen is, but he DOES.

I dont think he does.

No, you're merely misunderstanding them, as demonstrated directly above. You are somehow unable to understand basic words somehow, to the point that .

Nope you have contradicted yourself countless times, most of your arguments are subtle hints at other similar things, tieing them loosley together in an attempt to prove a point. I understand your words, just how you connect things doesent make sense to me.

I question your ability to hold a conversation in the English language

I question your ability to prove a point based on in game facts, with in game evidence such as memos or videos to help prove your point, and to what make assumptions basied of 'one line' of a memo, considering its backed up by things that are questionable. And the fact you insult we while we are having a debate is fucking pathetic, ive seen you getting edgy with others members your always getting told to relax, what you got your peroid? Oh and English is not my first language. ^____^ Toodles

[The Adversary]

I feel like I should jump in at this point, but . . . I just don't want to.

[AuraTwilight]

Alessa split in 2 because of events in silent hill 0, and it was 'part of her soul was reborn'. james and travis "Judgement/Shadow" figures are not them splitting in 2, they may be manifestations of how they feel. But i doubt james could have killed himself,then pyramid head digs his corpse up drags him to a room and rebirth ect. IF walter split, its got no connection to these other examples. You still have no in game evidence proofing what your claiming, one memo which could mean many different things, and is doubtfull that one prase 'i did it but it wasent me' relates to another walter, and i think would be foolish to make this assumption.

You...still haven't been doing any critical thing, then? Okay. Because I've already produced my reasoning, and you're just ignoring it.

Specifically, I want to call attention to this: The fact that Alessa divided herself due to the events of Silent Hill 0; what does it have to do with anything? She still DID IT. Moreover, Origins didn't even exist at the time SH4 was made, so the information in it is totally irrelevant; whether or not you consider Origins canon, Alessa's soul division still follows similar psychological mechanics to Walter's known, and proposed, splits: Both of them are basically using supernatural forces to express the psychological escape mechanisms of Dissociative Identity Disorder.

...As did Travis.

...And James was GOING TO, according to the production notes, and even in the final product, he's still wearing a false persona, with his true self exaggerated in Pyramid Head.

Your contrdicting yourself right there ''he marks the first ten victims'' - if someone starts writing the word 'CAT' and i go ''yup you got the letter C spot on mate!'' thats a form of guidence. So your telling me valtiel marked the first ten signs knowing walter killed 2 kids, that were not sinners? Ok

You need to look up the definition of 'contradiction', because I'm not contradicting myself. I'm contradicting your opinion, but that's different.

Valtiel witnesses, observes, and marks Walter's decisions. If Walter says that an innocent kid is a killer, Valtiel goes "Well, alright."

Walter is doing all the judging here; Valtiel just assigns it holy authority.

Basically, Walter is using Valtiel's divine authority to do what he wants.

Could be, but why would you fear something youve killed, i wouldent.

You also don't think your mom is an inanimate room in an apartment building. Walter's not really the epitome of sanity.

Even if he was, what if the Otherworld showed him Jimmy Stone? Silent Hill, afterall, was sacred to the Native Americans because they thought you could meet the dead, there.

I know that 'that' form of walter is not his true body, but the point im trying to make is that body was very important becuase he used it to kill the other victims, and was his only form of attack. If walter did not need this body, then why did walter not stop henry? surely if he dident need a 'physical form' then that implys he must he king like you ay that controls everything in his world, but yet when henry grabs the spears to kill walter, why doesent walter stop him? surely he could teleport henry somewhere else? Or summon knifes or more walters? heck if you say he can divde more than once what is stopping him? Fact is he needed that physical form which he did infact have, it was flesh, and i have proved this, i dont even prove this, just play silent hill 4 again, theres your proof.

The body Walter uses to attack Henry isn't made of flesh, it's made of ideas; it only exists in the world he created. Therefore, it has no bearing on Walter being freed from the bonds of the flesh. Even if it did, it's an immortal, indestructible body that can teleport to wherever he wants. So he transcends the fleshly limits people like you and me have to deal with. No one is saying that Walter can do anything he wants, so stop acting like that's my argument. You're arguing against something no one ever brought up except you.

But yet he fights like a human, not a demi god.

Humans don't get back up no matter how many times you kill them. Humans can't follow you no matter where you go, even if it should be physically impossible. Humans don't know where you are at all times, and humans can't control if you wake up or fall asleep. Walter does.

This is a debate where we reason and argue points based on facts and words, words writtern in the game, and evidence shown in the game. Walters long coat form cannot be killed until the spears are stabbed into his true form, this does NOT mean walter is immortal.

The spears stabbed into his true form is a supernatural action, the equivalent of banishing a ghost. Do you not see that there's a difference between using magical weapons on Walter's phylactery and shooting him with a normal gun?

Do you not consider the fact that, if left alone, Walter will live no many how many years pass?

Walter is immortal. That doesn't mean absolutely indestructible.

I could say that about you, but i wont, because im not trying to get you to change your opinion on how you see the game, and what theorys you have made gathered on evidence. Its debatable on 'what the words really mean' becuase it always left for the player to discover the meaning. Oh and you still did not address my points, by the way.

I have addressed your points. And I don't feel the need to provide evidence to someone who doesn't understand the meaning of half the things I tell them in casual conversation. There's several threads in the Quicklinks section that provide the evidence better than I could anyway, so go look at them.

So your also saying eileen was in astral projection? Because she was not fully a ghost victim, but partly becomes one here and there for a few seconds, hence the possession. Alessa wasent in astral projection, she was in the otherworld, regardless of where her true body was. since astral projection has not been mentioned in any of the games, leave it out. If your bring the concept in from real life, dont, because it has not been proved to be real, just a hallucination of the mind. And in the in game world of silent hill, the otherworld 'has' been proven to be more than a simple hallucination.

While Eileen was traveling with Henry, her body was unconscious in St. Jerome Hospital. Her body and soul were separate, therefore she is engaging in Astral Projection via dreaming. The same goes for everyone pulled into Walter's world.

Alessa's body was in a wheelchair while her spirit was wandering the Otherworld.

Astral Projection is when the soul leaves the body and explores autonomously. I don't know why you keep bringing in that Astral Projection doesn't exist in real life; what the fuck does that have to do with anything we're talking about? I don't get it. I'm not trying to exist that Astral Projection exists in real life, or something.

Go play silent hill 2 again.

Yes....AND?

We don't know if the Mary he talks to is real or not. The fact that she says different things depending on the ending implies that Mary is influenced by James' emotional state, which can lead one to think that she's just a figment of his imagination.

How so? Its only a theory, but walter could have come from the otherworld , to do the ritual, which then makes him enter his own world. As i said i dont know, its just a guess. Theres not enough in game evidence to support what im saying on this point, thats why its a guess.

People in the real world saw him, therefore he wasn't in the Otherworld.

Not to mention that Southern Ashfield doesn't HAVE an Otherworld until Walter creates one.

The victims were killed, they roam as messed up ghosts with zombie like brains, Walter killed himself, and roams as something that looks very human, and can hold a conversation, and doesent have primal instincts to harm anything in the otherworld that moves. See the pattern? Yeah walter isent really a victim, sure hes on the list of 'victims' but i dont see him as a victim, he killed himself.

Walter is a victim. His differing nature has to do with the circumstances of him performing the ritual, but the fact that he's so different hurts the idea that he's merely a ghost like the others.

Ok gotcha, its certainly possable, but theres not enough in game evidence that points to it for me, so i disagree and hold my own opinions for myself

Fair enough. The main reason is that the idea of Walter performing the ritual as a ghost...to free himself from his BODY....makes no damn sense. If the ritual's purpose was called "To free one from the bonds of this world" it'd make more sense, but it specifically talks about the ritual performer's flesh.

This is pointless because your not explaining how walter did it without a ritual being performed. Your just loosely hinting at other similarities in other games, and making sound mystical as if you know something we dont, please just tell us.. 'how' walter split, because so far you have not, or produced any evidence, really.

You're asking me to explain it, when it's already happened in the games. What do I need to explain, exactly? Alessa could just make things happen with her mind. Through pure force of will and emotional desperation, she created a baby with half her soul in it. Why can't Walter due something similar after visiting the Otherworld created by Alessa's power? What if his mind already broke in half, as if from split personalities, and the Otherworld gave each personality their own body? The whole point of the Otherworld is that someone's suppressed thoughts and emotional problems are made physical, and you're confused on how Walter's emotional conflict of "I want to be Happy VS But I killed those kids" can lead to a split?

The context of what 'greater potential' meant is debatable could just simply mean 'he would be more willing or easyer to influence'' greater potential for what the cult wants to acheive, of course im not saying im right, im probs not, but theres no evidence to say walter had powers before the ritual of the holy assumption.

You're right, 'greater potential' is vague. But you have to understand where I'm coming from, right? Especially since "powers" was all Alessa really HAD. It's not like she was willing or wanted to go along with the cult's plans, you know? And the series does seem to imply at times that the cult is no different from any other religion, and it's magic spells only work because someone with powers uses them. The Seal of Metatron, for instance. It works for Alessa, and Claudia says it's just a piece of junk.

Otherworld give him powers? Divide him? Possable maybe, but divide him into 2 seperate walters for his own perpose, so he has conscious control over both versions of himself? By your local of what you started at the top of the page: James did not control pyramid head with his conscious, nor did travis control butcher with his conscious, and did Aless controll Cheryl so Cheryl would say 'harry dont go to silent hill otherwise were fucked bro o.o'? nope, so why should walter control his other version? - if they even split. You cant have your cake and eat it..

I've never claimed that Walter did it on purpose, or had conscious control over both parts of himself. Both Walters had their own thoughts and agendas, and did things independently of each other. Read what I say and stop strawmanning my argument. You are arguing against things I'm not saying in order to make my ideas look stupid, and it's making me lose my temper with you.

If you don't understand, just ask for me to clarify and don't fucking mock me like I'm writing a bad fanfiction.

That memory of alessa was always there, and will always be a part of the otherworld, and they are 'not' the same, Heather consciously states
Quote:
'me and you are not alike alessa and its not that i dont remember that sick room either'
^ or something like that, but heather does not consciously CONTROLL the memory of Alessa. Alessa states she wanted to kill heather to prevent the birth of god, then heather states thats not how she 'heather' feels.

Memory of Alessa is basically the memories of Heather's past self. As she puts it in the game, she feels like part of her wants to live, and part of her wants to die. It's deliberately evocative of internal struggles and dissociative identity disorder. Alessa was the force inside Heather that prompted the Otherworld shift way back in that Happy Burger when she dreamed of the future. Alessa was the one who's been conjuring monsters from their shared mind in order to satisfy her own wish to die.

Team Silent have said that the Red Devil is not Pyramid Head <-- Show me. There wasent much point in calling jimmy the red devil,then. Book of lost memories states 'only walter knew what he saw' they dont disprove the possibility of it being pyramid head or valtiel.

The Book of Lost Memories was released before SH4, to be fair. But hold on.

http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Jimmy_Stone Both of those bottom images there are from the Sullivan Victim Files, a Japanese-only, fan-translated guide written by Team Silent, just like the Book of Lost Memories.

Jimmy Stone is the Red Devil. This is inarguable canonical fact.

Maria. The ghost in the subway in silent hill 3.

Maria isn't a ghost. The subway ghost is incorporeal, and isn't in possession of it's mental faculties. The same memo that prompts it's appearance also says that ghosts that died via suicide are unable to recall anything but their pain and the time they died, essentially reliving their deaths like a loop.

Okay thats bs because in room 302 you are safe, yes walter has a certain degree of control, but if he had full control why dident he just kill henry in his house and shut the holes to prevent him from escaping and messwing his paln up? Your also basicly telling me items 'that help henry stop walter in the end' are being materielised BY WALTER...for henry? Lol Im sorry but i think its very safe to say out loud, ''Henry does infact bring back items from the otherworld, and they dont just materielise in room 302''

The Room is only safe because Walter lets it be safe, and he only lets that be for half of the game before it becomes haunted.

Henry is 21/21. He is the Receiver of Wisdom. Walter says so himself. For the 21 Sacraments to work, not only does Henry have to die last, but he has to witness everything he can, and learn everything that Joseph Scrieber, the Giver of Wisdom, has to tell him.

Come on, man, this is in the game in plain text. Henry has to live until it's his turn to die, but the fact that Eileen didn't die when they were supposed to threw the whole plan out of whack.

Is their a memo in silent hill 4 stateing this? Jasper wasent asleep, neither was eileen, nor cyntha.

Cynthia herself says that she's dreaming, dude.

And if Eileen dies, the ending says that she died in the hospital.

No one memo says it, but if you actually pay attention through the game, it's very obvious that the characters are asleep. Even Henry climbs out of bed every time he returns to the Apartment.

Maybe because eileen 20/21 dies. And walters second death takes 21/21, and god is born into the room?

Wrong ending. I'm talking about the ending where Eileen lives but the Room is still haunted. God isn't born, Walter is dead, but the world he created still exists without him.

No walter is doing it for himself, why would you compare walter whos killed kids, as being selfless, what selfless like a jedi knight~?

Adult Walter is doing it for Young Walter, who has split off from him, and who he refers to in the third person as if he were a separate individual. And given the ending where Walter's plan succeeds, and Adult Walter looks like he's dead, it doesn't seem like he cares what happens to him so long as Little Wally is happy.

Selflessness is not Good, and Selfishness is not Evil.

Could have meant anything. Better question, why does mayor barlett call his son joey 'lord' and say 'i only live to serve you my lord, please show mercy'? same concept, but you wont understand it, and declare me mad. Mad as a hatter.

He's not, he's praying to God to save him from this monster.

"Please, protect me in this hour of-" Then he gets crushed.

Why would little water want to stop eileen dying, he doesent even know 'who' she is, he just told her hes looking for his mommy, nothing more, the game indicates nothing more than that.

Eileen herself says that Little Walter saved her, so this isn't debateable. Little Walter is a part of Walter, so he can know of Eileen. He doesn't need to know why he knows her, or why he cares about her, any more than Maria needs to know who Laura is.

"Laura loves Teddy Bears. Wait...Laura? Who am I talking about?"

But yet it really does seem to be a manifestation of walter at that age, and he is 'shocked' to hear that this man is called walter too. And knows nothing of the future, it 'is' a manifestation of young walter.

And he also knows who Eileen is, and doesn't know what the 21 Sacraments are even though he read them as a child, and says contradictory things like "My parents abandoned me, but I'm gonna meet my Mom soon!"

Young Walter isn't literally the Walter he was when he's a child. He's very SIMILAR, but ultimately he's like a character in a dream. He knows things he needs to know, and doesn't know things that he SHOULD know but doesn't NEED to know. I bet if we asked him, Young Walter wouldn't know certain facts he learned in school, for instance, because they're not important here.

Young Walter, as we meet him in the game, represents the part of Walter that feels like an abandoned child, and wants to see his Mother. This is also the part of Walter that feels respect and fondness for Eileen, and isn't 100% sure he wants her to die. It's the part of him that thinks "Eileen doesn't deserve this, she was nice to me."

well most of it was for a game called 'room 302' Fungo brings this point up and team silent contact him and do not mention he is wrong about this, so yeah :/

Fungo isn't Team Silent, his statements don't mean anything. Can you back this up with a source? Can you prove that SH4 was intended to be a non-SH game? Because it was never going to be, it was always planned to be a Silent Hill. This is a baseless rumor.

But you said he dident lose his temper earlyer.

I'm pretty sure I said he didn't FLIP OUT, that's different from losing his temper. I was talking about madness and insanity, not rage and anger.

Not proven, the only thing it can change is their reality, not them.

Leonard Wolf says hi.

And the Missionary and Scraper monsters.

And Lisa.

And the SH1 Nurses and Doctors.

And Cybil.

Theres no evidence of him visting the otherworld before killing himself

Play Silent Hill 2. He has a gravestone just like James, Eddie, and Angela.

even if he did, are you telling me the otherworld created a version of him, which he had complete control over, and they left the otherworld, walter 1 kills himself, and walter 2 digs himself up, to room 302, does ritual, combnies, only to later split? The problem is theres not enough evidence to support this, james dident control pyramid head, nor travis control the butcher, and alessa did not controll cheryl or heather. So why can walter controll this new version of himself the otherworld has created?

See above, I've NEVER claimed this.

I dont think he does.

Then why did he save Eileen? He sure didn't try and help any of the other Victims.

Nope you have contradicted yourself countless times, most of your arguments are subtle hints at other similar things, tieing them loosley together in an attempt to prove a point. I understand your words, just how you connect things doesent make sense to me.

You've been accusing me of saying things I've never said. You're not really in a boat to criticize.

I question your ability to prove a point based on in game facts, with in game evidence such as memos or videos to help prove your point, and to what make assumptions basied of 'one line' of a memo, considering its backed up by things that are questionable. And the fact you insult we while we are having a debate is fucking pathetic, ive seen you getting edgy with others members your always getting told to relax, what you got your peroid? Oh and English is not my first language. ^____^ Toodles

See above.

And I apologize for snapping at you. At the time of my last post, I accidentally burned myself cooking dinner and was still kinda pissy. :l But having people put words in my mouth is one of my 'hot buttons', so please try to avoid it.