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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Witnesses and The Corpse
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 221
I remember having this idea the first time I played Silent Hill 4 last year, but seeing as I only finished it until today I thought it proper to wait until I'd seen the whole story before I ventured the theory.

As you know, the presence of strange bagged bodies hanging in cages forms much of the backdrop in both SH1 and 3. Now the lost memories book draws a link with Valtiel here, to the effect that these are knowing members of the cult, there to witness the birth of God. By knowing members I mean that they aren't confused individuals sucked into the nightmare world, like the protagonists, but people who understand what is happening and can therefore manifest in a form they choose within the nightmare world. What immediately impressed me in the Subway world of Silent Hill 4 (and some other locations) is the presence of these same cages, but now without the bodies inside them. What we have instead are the victims floating around freely, which is something we've never seen before. My theory is that the specific circumstances of Silent Hill 4, namely the near completion of the ritual to bring about God, means that the usual witnesses have now been effectively unchained, and are now able to take an active part in bringing it about. The only real flaw would be that only a small number (at least 2) of the victims were actually involved with the cult. But then Walter is obviously imposing his will over all of them, so it isn't impossible to view them as being initiated into the cult's mysteries and therefore gain the powers of manifesting in the nightmare world.

Anyway, my second question is about Walter's body. I only played through the section where you find his corpse a matter of hours ago (which btw was one of the creepiest and most distubring things in the series to date), and it left me with some questions. Is this roughly how the chain of events progressed-

Walter completes the first 10 murders.
Walter kills himself whilst in custody (in gaol or in the room?), completing his assumption.
His body is disposed of in the Forest Cemetary.
His ghost form returns to the forest and brings the corpse back to the room where he sets it up as displayed.

Or did the body never go to the cemetary?

This obviously means that Walter's ghost can interact with the real world, to be able to put his corpse in there and seal up the wall... Is that right?


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
Walter collects the Ten Hearts. The last two that he collects is Billy & Miriam Locane, in Silent Hill. While here, his soul is split in two, and he undergoes his own "trial"--much like The Trinity of Silent Hill 2 do. The "Innocent" Walter--the half that felt penitence for what he had done--is arrested & convicted for the murders of Billy & Miriam Locane; then imprisoned. This self commits suicide in the jail cell by driving a spoon into his carotid artery. The "Innocent" Walter is then buried in an unmarked grave outside of Wish House.

The other self--the "Guilty" Walter--deracinates the other's corpse, and takes it to the then-vacant room 302 of South Ashfield Heights. In the storage room, now walled-off, he performs the Ritual of the Holy Assumption.

Ten years later, the game begins.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 221
Quote:
While here, his soul is split in two


Is this officially stated? That would mean that he actually splits into three when you count the child Walter as well...

Quote:
much like The Trinity of Silent Hill 2 do


The what? I haven't played SH2 for a while now, but I'd likely remember 'The Trinity'. What or who is this?


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Subway Guard
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Missing since: 28 Jan 2005
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Last seen at: Калинингра́д, Россия
The Trinity would be James, Eddie, and Angela.

Child Walter is a manifestation.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Complete Walter = Innocent Walter + Guilty Walter / Lil' Wally.

Meaning, essentially, that the Complete Walter (4/4), is 2/4 Innocent Walter, 1/4 Guilty Walter, and 1/4 Lil' Wally.

Much like: Alessa.

>Is this officially stated?
Not exactly, but it's the only way to logically explain Walter committing suicide twice: once in prison, and again in room 302.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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 Post subject:

Makes sense.

And about those cages. Some of those cages have dead corpses in them, usually skinned looking and whathaveyou.

I definatly see blood in them as well.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Also makes sense because wasn't Walter the Alessa Backup Plan?

I'm having trouble understanding your first question. Are you saying all the ghosts you see are trying to help the cult? If so, that would be a negatory, good sir: The ghost-victims are pets of Walter's, in His Kingdom, and are probably fuckin' hostile towards the living (or just Henry and Eileen under Walter's command), like most ghosts are, thus explaining the way they chase after you and hurt you and all that.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
>wasn't Walter the Alessa Backup Plan?
According to one fellow, but there isn't much suggesting as such. It's a novel idea, but nothing I can ascribe to.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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Last seen at: In the Cave of Rendezvous
I really don't see Walter as a backup. I see it that the cult tries to summon God in every breath they can take.

Alessa is the MAIN way, but some subcults went on with different ways.
Walter is one of these.
If you think about the whole religion the cult created. They have many books, one is the white book that could be seen in SH2 hotel and church in SH3.
Think about how many ways they could have made up.
And because these cults seems to actually have true contact with the Gods, the ways to summon THE God could be many.

Holding all the answers = Valtiel.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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There are only two ways the Order has to summon God, distinguised by the two opposing Sects of the Order: The Sect of the Holy Mother & the Sect of the Holy Woman.

The Sect of the Holy Woman, led by Priestess Dahlia Gillespie, believes God may be resurrected by impregnating a woman, replete with special powers, with the Child-God within her womb. This occurred back in 1976--according to my timeline--when Dahlia burn'd her home down with Alessa inside.

Other followers include the faceless members in the "basement" of Nowhere--from Silent Hill 1, surrounding lil' Alessa--, Claudia Wolfe, the Missionary, & the folks down in the Chapel.

The Sect of the Holy Mother, in charge of Wish House, the orphanage, would raise & brainwash children into believing God's existence and salvation. In doing so, they would select a child to raise as the Conjurer, with which to achieve their goal of summoning God (the Holy Mother). Walter Sullivan was brainwashed in believing this, and was chosen by George Rosten & Jimmy Stone to be God's Conjurer.

Other followers include Toby Archibold--who took over after George Rosten's death--and Leonard Wolfe

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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Last seen at: In the Cave of Rendezvous
Yes, only two ways... but you have to consider that we do not know what's going to happen in the future games of the serie.
Before Sh4, there were only ONE way... now there is two.
So there may be other ways too.

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Glazarus wrote:
Yes, only two ways.


Which there will remain two until Konami says otherwise.

No offense, but its kind of redundant trying to argue with something that we have no idea about.

Though that thought does tingle my fancy.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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But excuse me, that wasn't the point of my post. The point were that the cult never had Walter as a backup, but just as important. It was only another part of the sect.

What I am talking about is that people see Sh4 as a subplot. If there is another game coming, that focuses on the Walter "case", then it might be treated as an equal.

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 Post subject:

Glazarus wrote:
But excuse me, that wasn't the point of my post. The point were that the cult never had Walter as a backup, but just as important. It was only another part of the sect.

What I am talking about is that people see Sh4 as a subplot. If there is another game coming, that focuses on the Walter "case", then it might be treated as an equal.


I know.
I was just questioning why you would put there as an attempt to back yourself up, but apparently, I was wrong.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Think about how many ways they could have made up.
>Yes, only two ways
That's what I was getting at.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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But, as said... you cannot know for certain because the series continue, an more mysteries will reveal themselfs. I'm just saying that no one can say that something is exact, before they cancel the serie. If another game is being made, then we can't post things as an exact truth.

I welcome the possibility of more ways to summon God. Think of all scriptures that real religions have. They are so long that this forum will crash many time over, if they were posted here. What I am saying is that these games shows a bit of Silent Hill. The mythology may include many more things than what we have seen...

Then again, yes, "I cannot know", but then again, again, Silent Hill 5 will have a mysterious story that shows more parts of Silent Hill and it's mythology than we have seen to date... that shouldn't be false.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>because the series continue, an more mysteries will reveal themselfs
But until then, you can't deny there only being two ways to summon God. You cannot predict what's to happen, lest you'll go nowhere, anticipating an answer that will never come.

>then we can't post things as an exact truth.
Fact: There are only two known ways to summon God.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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the Adversary wrote:
>
Fact: There are only two known ways to summon God.


Precise... only two KNOWN ways. Didn't deny that...

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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I'm having trouble understanding your first question. Are you saying all the ghosts you see are trying to help the cult? If so, that would be a negatory, good sir: The ghost-victims are pets of Walter's, in His Kingdom, and are probably fuckin' hostile towards the living (or just Henry and Eileen under Walter's command), like most ghosts are, thus explaining the way they chase after you and hurt you and all that.


What I'm attempting to say is that in SH1 and 3 the corpses we see in the cages are individuals initiated into the mytseries of the Silent Hill Cult. As such they are able to take a prescribed form within the nightmare world because they understand how it works and what is going on. They aren't, like the protagonists, thrown into this world exactly as they are in real life- they consciously take the prescribed form of the bodies wrapped in ceremonial garbs, and are obviously not troubled by the creatures that inhabit or are created by that world either. They are simply there to witness.

Cut to SH4 and we have Walter performing the ritual murder of each of the prescribed victims. As we know this is not simply a physical death, but one which binds those souls within the fabric of his nightmare world. Unlike the passive gestation of God in the Alessa rite, however, the ritual Walter is performing is a very active one. Therefore the witnesses, those souls he has called into the nightmare world, are employed in an active fashion, so the cages they would normally inhabit are empty in this game. They aren't just there to watch in this case, but to actively assist the ritual. They are assisting the cult precisely because they are serving Walter, and he is performing the work of the cult. Like you say, they have no will of their own, and you could also say that of the witnesses in SH1 and 3- they're just performing their assigned role.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 221
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Not exactly, but it's the only way to logically explain Walter committing suicide twice: once in prison, and again in room 302.


But Walter doesn't commit suicide twice. He's only listed once on the list of deaths necessary to the ritual, at number 11, and the corpse in room 302 bears 11/21 on his feet, so it's the same body. I also think there's an entirely logical way of explaining this without the guilty/innocent Walter idea which, frankly, I don't buy into at all. There is absolutely no indication at any point in the game that Walter feels any guilt over what he's doing. We are dealing with three Walters, but it's as simple as being his corpse, his ghost, and his younger image.

Here's my view of events:

- Walter commits the first ten murders.
- Arrested for the murder of Billy and Miriam.
- Ascends to the ghostly state through completing the first section of the rite, which it isn't proper to call suicide because he knows very well that he won't die. See it as leaving his body, his vulnerable nature, behind.
- Corpse is buried in the forest cemetary.
- Walter returns in ghost form, carves 11/21 into the coffin, retrieves the body, and takes it back to room 302 (either physically or through the network of portals he has available in the nightmare world.
- In preparation of the next stage of the ritual, Wlater places his corpse in the spare room, arranges it as we see, and walls up the room.
- Joseph, moves into the apartment, heralding the second phase of the ritual.
- The murders 12-14 take place as Joseph finds himself trapped in the room- necessary to cultivate his role as despair.
- Joseph is murdered and again the ritual is stalled.
- Henry moves in, heralding the third stage of the ritual.
- The murders 16-19 take place as Henry finds himself trapped in the room- necessary to cultivate his role as wisdom.
- Well all know the rest.

What I see happening in the room is a very careful gamble on Walter's part. He needs his corpse to be within the room but he also requires Joseph and Henry to play out there parts within it without discovering that vulnerable aspect of himself. As for why Joseph and Henry need to be in the room. Henry, as the receiver of wisdom, needs to discover exactly what is going on to fulfill his role, and it is through Joseph's despairing experiences that he is able to. The danger to Walter, which does come about, is that he will learn enough to stop him. Henry was never mean to discover Walter's body, that's why it was hidden, and that's why he was able to defeat him.


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