Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 23 May 2017




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message

RESPECT
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
>Ascends to the ghostly state through completing the first section of the rite.
Which, in order to do so, Walter must kill himself. Thus: suicide. And there very much is an innocent side to Walter: Read the newspaper, and what he shouts out as he's arrested.

Walter is taking the role as executioner for the Ritual of the Holy Assumption, and the first eleven victims are deserving of judgment. We know that Valtiel was placed within Walter's consciousness, so who better to take the role of an executioner than the executioner: Valtiel.

>Corpse is buried in the forest cemetary.
In order to perform the Ritual of the Holy Assumption, Walter required the necessary books & articles, as well as the Blood of the Ten Sinners. How, exactly, do you suppose he managed to sneak ten hearts, the Obsidian Goblet, the white chrism, & the cult's Bible into a prison cell?

Secondly: The Ritual of the Holy Assumption is performed in room 302, days after his Innocent's body is buried outside of Wish House. Walter needed his entire soul--both souls, if you will--for the ritual's success, so he deracinated the Innocent's corpse and took it to room 302. Frank Sunderland even saw Walter carrying "something heavy" and a "bag dripping with blood" into the then-vacant room 302: Walter is carrying his own body & the Ten Hearts.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 221
Quote:
Secondly: The Ritual of the Holy Assumption is performed in room 302, days after his Innocent's body is buried outside of Wish House. Walter needed his entire soul--both souls, if you will--for the ritual's success, so he deracinated the Innocent's corpse and took it to room 302. Frank Sunderland even saw Walter carrying "something heavy" and a "bag dripping with blood" into the then-vacant room 302: Walter is carrying his own body & the Ten Hearts.


I think the problem we're having here is in terms, not ideas. I know very well that Walter returned with the hearts, objects, and body after his jail cell suicide. I wouldn't say that he needs both 'souls' for the ritual, but definitely his enduring soul and the body it has left. Within the weak confines of the flesh perhaps Walter did possess a degree of innocence, but I can't see how an Alessa style soul split is necessary or supported by what you said. In his ghostly state he may have left behind all innocence, and thus you could view his body as the last remnant of this, but there's no indication that there's any parallel soul existing afterward, just a flesh and blood body.

So what you see as Evil Walter - Innocent Walter - Memory Walter (the child), I see as Ghost Walter - Corpse Walter - Memory Walter.


Top
   
 


 Post subject:

Maybe my question is a bit naive, but it's a thought that's been bugging me and I think if I hear you spell it out for me it will help me understand. If Walter was able to get into Room 302 to uphold the Holy Assumption and hide his body, along with the Ten Hearts, then why didn't he just stay there? He was with his mother, which he thinks is the room right? Or, did he just continue his work to fufill the 21 Sacrements?

Thanks in advance for your help and time. -small bow-


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 20 Aug 2003
Notes left: 4728
Last seen at: H-Town
^ Little Walter believed that his mother was the room, but grownup Walter should know better. His goal at the time is solely to fulfil the 21 sacraments, and thus summon God (the Holy Mother).

_________________
[ Un-Space Exploration - UE photo blog ]


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 May 2006
Notes left: 175
Last seen at: At this point I really don't know
The Necronoir wrote:
So what you see as Evil Walter - Innocent Walter - Memory Walter (the child), I see as Ghost Walter - Corpse Walter - Memory Walter.


Don't wanna flame here. The second one is the one I prefer, but we have to agree that both theories are rather illogical.
Splitting his soul and body into two? How the hell?
A ghost carrying his own body into a room and then sealing it off? Pardon?

We haven't got a definite, most logical idea at all. Both are equally abstract.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 20 Aug 2003
Notes left: 4728
Last seen at: H-Town
^ Alessa split her soul in SH1.
Why can't that go with Walter too?

_________________
[ Un-Space Exploration - UE photo blog ]


Top
   
 


 Post subject:

B5160-R wrote:
^ Little Walter believed that his mother was the room, but grownup Walter should know better. His goal at the time is solely to fulfil the 21 sacraments, and thus summon God (the Holy Mother).


Ah, that's what I thought. Thanks for clearing things up for me.


Top
   
 

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 21 May 2006
Notes left: 369
Last seen at: Italy
The Necronoir wrote:
I think the problem we're having here is in terms, not ideas. I know very well that Walter returned with the hearts, objects, and body after his jail cell suicide. I wouldn't say that he needs both 'souls' for the ritual, but definitely his enduring soul and the body it has left. Within the weak confines of the flesh perhaps Walter did possess a degree of innocence, but I can't see how an Alessa style soul split is necessary or supported by what you said. In his ghostly state he may have left behind all innocence, and thus you could view his body as the last remnant of this, but there's no indication that there's any parallel soul existing afterward, just a flesh and blood body.

So what you see as Evil Walter - Innocent Walter - Memory Walter (the child), I see as Ghost Walter - Corpse Walter - Memory Walter.


The hole in this theory is that we know that the Ritual of the Holy Assumption came after Walter's suicide/rebirth. So, if you assume that Walter perpetrated the ritual before killing himself, so that he can gain powers to leave flesh behind and all that crap, you're wrong and you must find another explanation for the doppelganger thing and how the hell there are two Walters.

Anyway, I was elaborating more on the Two Walters mindfuck and a book came to my mind: Stephen King's The Dark Half (there's always a decent Romero movie adaptation).
For those of you who haven't read it, read it. And, uh, that's the plot summary needed for the theory (obvious spoilers ahead):

[spoiler]
The protagonist, Thad, had a twin when he was still in utero, later absorbed by his body before birth and removed from his head when he was a child (thinking of a tumor).
Thad is now an adult and a writer: he writes intellectual books signed with his real name and horror splatter best-selling books signed with the pseudonym of George Stark.
So we have a good guy, Thad, and a bad guy, George, living in his subconscious (presumably the influence of his twin).

One day Thad decides to stop writing horror books, and symbolically kills George.
That day, George comes to life as a doppelganger of Thad and begins a killing spree against those whom he consider responsible for his "death"; he obviously tries to kill Thad, too, who is his main target.
[/spoiler]

Elaborating Walter's story, we can write the following:

The protagonist, Walter, had Valtiel sneaked in its mind when he was still a child; George Rosten is the one responsible for this, the purpose being the ritual of the 21 Sacraments.
Walter is now an adult which is partly an innocent guy grown up by a weird cult and looking for his mother, partly a wicked killer following the ritual of the 21 Sacraments signs.
So we have a good guy, Walter, and a bad guy, Valtiel, living in his subconscious (presumably motivating him along with the 21 Sacraments thing).

One day, Walter travels to Silent Hill, kills Miriam and Billy according to the ritual and goes through the Abyss, like James did in SH2 and like his gravestone in SH2 witnesses. During this trip, he symbolically kills the bad Walter.
That day, Bad Walter comes to life as a doppelganger of Innocent Walter and tries to kill Innocent Walter (as Innocent Walter says while being arrested, along with calling him "the red devil", reminiscent of Valtiel).

Pretty similar? Could be intentional? We know King is one of the main references Team Silent used for their works.

_________________
Image

Along with you died joy.
All that remains is despair and a future of meaningless tomorrows.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
The protagonist, Walter, had Valtiel sneaked in its mind when he was still a child; George Rosten is the one responsible for this, the purpose being the ritual of the 21 Sacraments.
Walter is now an adult which is partly an innocent guy grown up by a weird cult and looking for his mother, partly a wicked killer following the ritual of the 21 Sacraments signs.
So we have a good guy, Walter, and a bad guy, Valtiel, living in his subconscious (presumably motivating him along with the 21 Sacraments thing).


Valtiel does not influence, motivate, or control Walter's actions in any way. He merely validates and, basically "blesses" the killings so they count as Sacraments. That's it.

Quote:
One day, Walter travels to Silent Hill, kills Miriam and Billy according to the ritual and goes through the Abyss, like James did in SH2 and like his gravestone in SH2 witnesses. During this trip, he symbolically kills the bad Walter.
That day, Bad Walter comes to life as a doppelganger of Innocent Walter and tries to kill Innocent Walter (as Innocent Walter says while being arrested, along with calling him "the red devil", reminiscent of Valtiel).


It's quite possible, though you're not the first person in the thread to suggest that Walter split into his good and evil sides, I like the Stephen King tie in.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 21 May 2006
Notes left: 369
Last seen at: Italy
AuraTwilight wrote:
Valtiel does not influence, motivate, or control Walter's actions in any way. He merely validates and, basically "blesses" the killings so they count as Sacraments. That's it.


And we know this exactly because...?


Quote:
It's quite possible, though you're not the first person in the thread to suggest that Walter split into his good and evil sides, I like the Stephen King tie in.


Yep, I posted merely due to the Dark Half parallelism, I know that Two Walters is already a well-known theory.

_________________
Image

Along with you died joy.
All that remains is despair and a future of meaningless tomorrows.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
And we know this exactly because...?


The same way we know Valtiel was slipped into his subconscious at all.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 21 May 2006
Notes left: 369
Last seen at: Italy
Well, the Victim Files only state that Rosten "succeeded in having Valtiel sneaked into Walter's unconsciousness to permit the 21 Sacraments to take place".
Doesn's say anything about motivating - even though the fact the its purpose was 21 Sacraments related may suggest that - or just "blessing the killings".

_________________
Image

Along with you died joy.
All that remains is despair and a future of meaningless tomorrows.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, for one thing, if Valtiel is just making Walter commit the murders, somehow, then he's not guilty in any way, so the plot pretty much falls apart.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

RESPECT
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
Walter isn't guilty according to Valtiel—whatever it acts upon is judgment and irrefutable. However, Walter isn't exempt from his own emotions and actions.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
MMY wrote:
Walter isn't guilty according to Valtiel—whatever it acts upon is judgment and irrefutable. However, Walter isn't exempt from his own emotions and actions.


But he is guilty according to, well, the real world, and that's what I'm referring to. If Valtiel is manipulating his actions, then Walter's not really responsible for what he did.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Witnesses and The Corpse
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 03 Oct 2012
Notes left: 254
Last seen at: Isle of Man
I know this is an old old thread, but reading through it an idea popped into my head that I've not seen elsewhere (if it has come up before then I apologise). Could Valtiel have brought back Walter from the dead to allow him to complete the ritual? After all he does this to Heather to ensure the birth of God and although he may be going against the cult in his plans Walter is still attempting to bring about the return of God to the world. I'm not aware of Walter having any powers before his death that would allow him to split his soul like Alessa did so could this work as an alternative explanation? I don't profess to have anywhere near the SH knowledge that a lot of you guys do, so forgive me if I've missed something that obviously refutes this notion.

ps Halfway through writing this it occurred to me that this might not have been the best thread to have posted this in, but I'm using my PS3 to write on and I've no desire to start it all again!

_________________
For anyone that might be interested in such things, some links to my music, of the alternative rock kind -
http://postcode.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/zebracore
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Postcode/99794277098

And my Post-Rock band Nanaki -
https://nanaki.bandcamp.com


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Witnesses and The Corpse
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11370
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
It's possible, though Valtiel seems to have left his consciousness after the first ten victims, and liberating yourself from your body as the 11th Sacrament is just part of the ritual, so Valtiel might not even be necessary.

Walter WAS chosen to perform it because he has "potential greater than Alessa", though. Whether that potential refers to psychic powers or just chances of suggest is open to interpretation.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Witnesses and The Corpse
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 03 Oct 2012
Notes left: 254
Last seen at: Isle of Man
I'd taken it simply to mean that he was more likely to succeed at birthing God but yeah, it's hard to determine exactly what it means. Did they say it before or after he'd had Valtiel put into him, I don't recall. Anyway, I'm coming round to the idea that he did just kill himself through guilt, even though there's something about it that I just don't like, though I do like that it humanizes him a little rather than making him an inhuman killing machine in life. I can't help but wondering WHY he killed the kids, it seems like a lot of the victims he had reasons for choosing, but them?

ETA: It's not so much the guilt/suicide thing that bothers me anyway, more the splitting into two Walters, not that I don't agree that it's possible that could have happened.

_________________
For anyone that might be interested in such things, some links to my music, of the alternative rock kind -
http://postcode.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/zebracore
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Postcode/99794277098

And my Post-Rock band Nanaki -
https://nanaki.bandcamp.com


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Witnesses and The Corpse
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 186
The Necronoir wrote:
As you know, the presence of strange bagged bodies hanging in cages forms much of the backdrop in both SH1 and 3. Now the lost memories book draws a link with Valtiel here, to the effect that these are knowing members of the cult, there to witness the birth of God.


Where is that stated? I remember reading this somewhere, but not sure where.
Anyway, that's really creepy D:

The Necronoir wrote:
Quote:
Not exactly, but it's the only way to logically explain Walter committing suicide twice: once in prison, and again in room 302.


But Walter doesn't commit suicide twice. He's only listed once on the list of deaths necessary to the ritual, at number 11, and the corpse in room 302 bears 11/21 on his feet, so it's the same body. I also think there's an entirely logical way of explaining this without the guilty/innocent Walter idea which, frankly, I don't buy into at all. There is absolutely no indication at any point in the game that Walter feels any guilt over what he's doing. We are dealing with three Walters, but it's as simple as being his corpse, his ghost, and his younger image.

Here's my view of events:

- Walter commits the first ten murders.
- Arrested for the murder of Billy and Miriam.
- Ascends to the ghostly state through completing the first section of the rite, which it isn't proper to call suicide because he knows very well that he won't die. See it as leaving his body, his vulnerable nature, behind.
- Corpse is buried in the forest cemetary.
- Walter returns in ghost form, carves 11/21 into the coffin, retrieves the body, and takes it back to room 302 (either physically or through the network of portals he has available in the nightmare world.
- In preparation of the next stage of the ritual, Wlater places his corpse in the spare room, arranges it as we see, and walls up the room.
- Joseph, moves into the apartment, heralding the second phase of the ritual.
- The murders 12-14 take place as Joseph finds himself trapped in the room- necessary to cultivate his role as despair.
- Joseph is murdered and again the ritual is stalled.
- Henry moves in, heralding the third stage of the ritual.
- The murders 16-19 take place as Henry finds himself trapped in the room- necessary to cultivate his role as wisdom.
- Well all know the rest.

What I see happening in the room is a very careful gamble on Walter's part. He needs his corpse to be within the room but he also requires Joseph and Henry to play out there parts within it without discovering that vulnerable aspect of himself. As for why Joseph and Henry need to be in the room. Henry, as the receiver of wisdom, needs to discover exactly what is going on to fulfill his role, and it is through Joseph's despairing experiences that he is able to. The danger to Walter, which does come about, is that he will learn enough to stop him. Henry was never mean to discover Walter's body, that's why it was hidden, and that's why he was able to defeat him.


That's pretty much what I think.
Except one thing: Walter didn't take his body in the real world, but in the otherworld. Allow me to elaborate:

Joseph states that, when he went to see the cemetery, that day was strangely foggy. As we know, the fog comes up when the town's power manifests. I think that time when Joseph was in the cemetery the otherworld manifested itself (why? maybe because that what Walter wanted Joseph to see that time, so Walter caught him up to his plane of existence) and Joseph saw the other reality.
That said, since Walter's ghost can easily manifest itself in his world, he could pick out his own body to create his world and do that ritual stuff. So, if he was in his world, how could Richard see him? Well, the 302 is actually an intersection between the real world and the Walterworld. one proof of this in how the apartment looks from the outside in Walter's world.
So, whatever happens in the 302, it is not divided in two worlds like the rest. All that happens there is real, and not a dream. So, if Walter appears in there, he's in the Walterworld and the real world at the same time. That's my theory :)

Also, the Innocent and Guilty Walter theory just seems too forced. I personally find it inelegant.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: