Eileen's reality. (Spoilers abound.)

[Glazarus]

>So, the "real" carvings were selfinflicted
No, Walter Sullivan did them in reality; Walter has the ability to traverse between reality & unreality. "There were no clues. Almost as if a ghost were responsible." [paraphrase] Like Raithien said: It would be impossible for the victims to carve the numbers into themselves in reality simply because of where they were carved: In the forehead, on the stomach, on the back, across the chest.

Ok, I agree that Eileen shouldn't be able to carve those numbers, but I don't think Walter can go into reality. "Almost as if a ghost were responsible" could mean that the carvings appeared when he made them in unreality, like "Nightmare on Elmstreet".
My theory on why he can be seen outside the door and in Braintrees apartment is that he isn't in reality, he is in unreality, but Henry can't see the rest of it. If you look through your door, you should instead be seing the red goo stuck on the wall... it should be the "living flesh" apartment, because that is where 302 is located. It's just an outpost into reality and that's why you see reality. The things that can appear is "blurred" because of this twisted "peeholes" into reality.
The handmarks on the wall, Walter, Bloody Henry... those doesn't exist in reality, but exist in unreality. The windows shows reality like a movie screen... if you were able to open them, they would show the truth: Unreality.

So, you are never in reality when your in 302... that's why I don't agree that Walter can walk between reality and unreality.

[The Adversary]

>I don't think Walter can go into reality.
Walter is seen in reality outside of the door, through the peephole. Whether you think it's an outpost or not is irrelevant: the fact that he's seen in the same dimension as Eileen & Frank is proof that he's right there, in reality; he's capable of traversing between this world & his own.

[Glazarus]

>I don't think Walter can go into reality.
Walter is seen in reality outside of the door, through the peephole. Whether you think it's an outpost or not is irrelevant: the fact that he's seen in the same dimension as Eileen & Frank is proof that he's right there, in reality; he's capable of traversing between this world & his own.

Frank saw him in his dream, not reality. The last time he saw "the man in coat" was when he went into 302 to complete the ritual. He is never seen in reality during the time of events we play.
And my theory of the outpost IS relevant, beacuse it makes 302 to never exist as we see it. The locked door, the hidden room, everything we see is existing in unreality, while the real room itself is being blocked by the unreality room. The room outside the door is NOT the apartment we see Eileen, Frank and Braintree standing in. It's the apartment building in unreality, as it looks in the end. Walter, Henry and the handprints exist in unreality, but can be seen through the room because it distorts whats reality and whats not.

He isn't standing in reality, he is standing in unreality. Just swap the background to the bloody apartment building and you get what I'm saying. He is never in reality, he is always in dreams, and thats why Frank talks about his dream...

[The Adversary]

>He is never seen in reality during the time of events we play.
Yes he is. After Eileen's attack, he is seen standing outside of the doorway, in the same reality that Frank & Eileen have been seen standing in. And Frank does see him in reality, before the ritual takes place, when Walter is carrying the articles into the room--as does Richard Braintree.

You're saying that because Henry is in his apartment, everything outside of the apartment is fake. That's ludicrous. He sees reality through the windows; he sees reality through the peephole. Frank & Eileen are both seen, in reality, outside of his door; Walter is too. Therefore, by deductive reasoning: Walter is seen in reality.

It's really very simple.

[amphreded]

>He is never seen in reality during the time of events we play.
Yes he is. After Eileen's attack, he is seen standing outside of the doorway, in the same reality that Frank & Eileen have been seen standing in. And Frank does see him in reality, before the ritual takes place, when Walter is carrying the articles into the room--as does Richard Braintree.

You're saying that because Henry is in his apartment, everything outside of the apartment is fake. That's ludicrous. He sees reality through the windows; he sees reality through the peephole. Frank & Eileen are both seen, in reality, outside of his door; Walter is too. Therefore, by deductive reasoning: Walter is seen in reality.

It's really very simple.

In general, I agree that Walter can traverse to reality, simply because Frank did mention that he saw Walter in the appartment, as well as in his dreams. But I don't think what Henry sees through windows and peepholes can be assumed that they are from reality. Henry sees the bloody hands stained on the wall beyond his peephole, so that's from the unreal. I think Henry sees BOTH reality and what not through windows and peepholes.
Walter infront of the door might not be from the real side. Just like how you look out of the window and there's a sign to check your neighbour--that's not neccesarily real.

[Glazarus]

>He is never seen in reality during the time of events we play.
Yes he is. After Eileen's attack, he is seen standing outside of the doorway, in the same reality that Frank & Eileen have been seen standing in. And Frank does see him in reality, before the ritual takes place, when Walter is carrying the articles into the room--as does Richard Braintree.

You're saying that because Henry is in his apartment, everything outside of the apartment is fake. That's ludicrous. He sees reality through the windows; he sees reality through the peephole. Frank & Eileen are both seen, in reality, outside of his door; Walter is too. Therefore, by deductive reasoning: Walter is seen in reality.

It's really very simple.

No, I'm not saying it's fake, your not listening or not understanding what I'm saying...
Reality we see outside is real, but you ARE NOT THERE, you are in unreality the whole time.
302 exist in the same place as the apartmentbuilding in the end, but because of it's outpostish nature, it ables you to see past the border of these dimensions. But the viewing is blurred with unreality, thus making you see the handprints... the nature of Walter transcending into reality or only transcending as burred past the borders, is up for discussion...

When does he carry articles?

[Faded.Memories]

Sullivan,Walter:

(I don't know exactly when the "Skinned Mike" tape was made but it included Richard yelling at Little Walter even at the time, but I personally assume The Real Walter was already dead by then.)

I thought Richard was talking to Little Walter too! I rememebr when I first played that game, when Richard was talking to him, I was like, "WTF? How is little Walter there?" Because the skinning seemed like a recent thing. So does that mean Little Walter has been running around the apartments for awhile before Walter begins to work his dreamworld? [Not including when it was 'actual real' little walter.]

And...if you can't understand what I just said, I don't blame you because I hardly understand it myself.

FrozenHalo:


I think there is a reason Walter hid his body away...perhaps it's in a state of sleep too, and disturbing it would sever his network of dreams that span across his victims...

I think that is an awesome theory. I really could believe that, FrozenHalo.[/quote]

[The Adversary]

>When does he carry articles?
An article is an item. Frank saw him, in reality, carrying the items used in the ritual--before the ritual was performed--to the apartment. After the ritual, Walter is still seen in reality outside of the peephole.

[Glazarus]

>When does he carry articles?
An article is an item. Frank saw him, in reality, carrying the items used in the ritual--before the ritual was performed--to the apartment. After the ritual, Walter is still seen in reality outside of the peephole.

In my theory he is infact in Unreality, just as he is, when knocking on Eileens door. It's just a blur between the two dimensions that makes us see Walter AND reality. He is in the "bloody apartment corridor", while we see the corridor from reality together with the handprints that only exists in unreality. Frank saw him before the ritual... but that has nothing to do with what I said, because it happened before he created his "kingdom".

Because of the nature of the apartment room 302, reality isn't defined the way we used too. It's not just unreality and reality. The room itself is in unreality, blocking reality, being able to see past the borders, while blurred and distorted by it's place in between the "mambrane", if you want to add M-theory to it all.

He isn't transcending to reality. No one actually sees him or have seen him since he created the Walterworld through the ritual. Name ONE article or dialogue that say that someone else saw him AFTER the "kingdom" was created. Saw him in reality that is. I think more then just Frank who saw him in his dreams. The whole apartment buildings inhabitants may have dreamt about him, in one way or another. (He viewed them all as obstacles)

If you think of Walter standing in the room of Braintree, pointing at Eileen. No one can see him but you, because he is standing in a similair dimension as your own. Others see just a window. Just like they see when they look at your window... no one sees you, because your not in reality, your in unreality.

I call it "outpost", but that may be a wrong name... a better name could be "Peephole". 302 is a "peephole" into reality from unreality.

[Anonymous]

And now I'm back, a hundred posts wiser...
After giving the issue some thought, I'm going to have to agree at least partially with Glazarus on this one.
It seems a bit unlikely that Walter can manifest himself in full reality after his Assumption. If he could, why would he go through the trouble of drawing his victims into Otherworld so that he could slay them? His physical form would be enough, if he could materialize it in reality, to slit his victim's throat where they stood, carve the numbers, and vanish. But he does draw them into his kingdom and hunt them, even though he doesn't need to kill them in Otherworld to trap their spirits there.
The Room being a sort of border realm between the Otherworld and reality is likely, since it's the heart of Walter's kingdom and some spill-over would be bound to happen. But it being situated entirely in his realm and only having windows into reality doesn't seem as agreeable. (Can someone check for me whether the handprints are still there when you walk into the apartment Otherworld? If not, this would support the idea.) Would it be possible that, as the Reciever of Wisdom, Henry is privy to sights that would be masked from others? The marks left by Walter, and Walter himself, being so strong that Henry can see through the barrier between here and there; percieving the handprints and Walter looking in on the place from Otherworld? Somewhat against this idea is the scene in which Eileen stumbles in front of the door, fighting off the hummingbird-bats that only she can see.

[Mis Krist.]

Maybe it's easier to draw them to his world so he doesn't have to be discreet about killing them. Walter killed the first ten victims in the real world, because that's the only world he had access to at the time, and then when he performed the ritual he was able to move about in his own kingdom. Why go through all the trouble of world-hopping when he can bring the victims to himself, and not run the risk of any messy slip-ups?

I have a few questions about Walter moving between worlds.. Walter can be seen in Richard's apartment, pointing at Eileen's window. Is Walter REALLY there, or is it something else that's going on? Like a "trick", much like the bloody handprints on the wall across from Henry's door, and the message "BETTER CHECK ON YOUR NEIGHBOR SOON." If those existed in reality, wouldn't the other occupants question it or call notice to it? I would think that Richard's apartment would be a crime scene, and if Walter walked right into it, there'd be some problems with that. But I'm not sure: does the game ever say where Richard's body is found?

Another interesting thing is the hospital. Is it the real St. Jerome's, transfigured because of Walter's presence? or is it a version Walter's powers hastily assembled because Eileen, his latest victim, was relocated there? The question sounds like it's out of the blue, but it does have some relevance. Walter knew that Eileen survived and was taken there - how his child-self was able to thwart his attack is a mystery to me - so it's possible that he tried to breach from his world to the real world to finish what he'd started. Two possibilities exist with this idea, though. One: that Walter moving from his reality to ours allowed a copycat hospital to be made (kind of like Claudia and the god-foetus being able to transfigure where Heather is located), one that Henry can go to and one that had the dreaming Eileen inside; or that this hospital was created in haste to make up for the overslight of Eileen surviving. I'm sorry if that's terribly confusing. I'm just tryin' to make sense out of this.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that Walter can move between worlds, only that I'm confused by it. And sorry that this has strayed far beyond the original purpose, Adversary.

Edit: Raithien's post - about Henry being able to see some things that aren't visible to others' eyes - seems to cover my questions about Walter being in Richard's room, the handprints and bloody message. It would make sense that Walter could be there, metaphysically, but unable to be detected. Kind of like a ghost. Henry can see him and see markings left by him, because he's (as Raithien already stated) the Receiver of Wisdom. So.. to sum it up: Walter's there, but no one else can see him. Is that it?

[amphreded]

Walter's there, but no one else can see him. Is that it?

That's another possibility I've thought about. Perhaps the real world and Walter's world exist on the same plane, but on a different frequency kind of thing. Henry is able to see Walter and bloody prints because Walter made Henry "tuned" into this seemingly unreal channel. I feel that the only way Walter can physically harm (hence, kill) someone is to make that person "able" to see him. I believe that before each victim's death, they see Walter before they die.

[Mis Krist.]

That makes sense. Also, if each victim is brought into Walter's world it would almost be inevitable that they see him. Cynthia admitted it when she paged Henry over the loudspeaker - "Hurry! He's coming!" - Jasper said he met him, Andrew was petrified because Walter locked him in the cell and then came after him, in child form (although it's not likely he was killed by the child), and Richard saw him as well. "That's no kid! That's the 11121 man!"

And I think I answered my own question.. about how little Walter was able to stop big Walter from killing Eileen. I don't want to take over Adversary's thread anymore than I already have, so I'll try to keep it brief.

I'll just throw this theory out there and see what happens. What if Walter, originally, could alternate between his innocent self and his murderous adult? We all know that Walter had a innocent consciousness, and that the two merged together when he crucified himself. So what if, in Walter's Kingdom, this innocence takes the form of a child: the literal manifestation of innocence? This Walter's desire is simple: find his mother, be with his mother. (The older Walter's desire becomes more complicated than that - whether or not he still wants to see his mother is questionable.) Is there any other instance, besides in the Building world the second time, that you see both big Walter and little Walter together? My belief is that when Walter attacked Eileen, the two halves split again. The innocent one defied the murderer's desire to attack the "Mother reborn," and allowed Eileen to survive. You see the child Walter in Richard's apartment, pointing at Eileen's window, transfixed. It's not altogether too impossible to say that after hooking Richard up to the chair, murderer!Walter then transformed into innocent!Walter. And again he's standing over Eileen, at another attack scene, but Eileen's thanking him for helping her. She even speaks to him as if she's familiar with him and his search - "Did you ever find your mother?" ... I'll stop there, though. I think I'm finally coming up with my own SH4 theory. Squee!

[Glazarus]

In my theory, Walter is never in reality. We see him standing as the boy when Richard is grilled in the chair. He points out through the window and next time we see him, we see the adult Walter standing in the same window, pointing in the same way.

Walter does not transcend, he can be seen together with reality, by the same methods as the handprints could be seen. They transcend only to the viewer, not to their own physical form. Because the nature of 302, we can see Walter standing in reality, when he is infact standing in the otherworldy version of it. 302 is a much more complex place to be lumped into either reality or unreality. It's more in unreality, then reality, but still on the border.


As my drawing of Walters kingdom, it's a spiral down, that connect to it's very beginning. Room 302 as we see it is on the top and closest to reality, just as the "outer steps" of our dreams. But in the same time, it's connected with the deepest part of Walter... the place where he was born. Thus, a spiral that connects with it's own beginning. (Do not think in logic, this is very abstract, as always in dreams).

As for the hospital, Kris, It's not really created because Eileen is there. It's a part of Walters world, because that's where he went after Frank found him together with the umbilical cord. I think that this hospital is a great and terryfying creation of how a baby views the outside world. Think of the "patients". The big creatures that hunts you there... a baby might see the new world kind of distorted, because it has never seen anything other then the womb. I find the "patients" (or nurses) in Sh4 to be really scary creatures, because they are not manifestations of fear (like the others), but instead recreations of how he saw reality as a baby.
A freudian hell...

Even though I find Sh4 to be lesser in quality, then the other games, I still find the game filled with really heavy stuff about psychology, dreams and our subconscious.

[Anonymous]

OK, some VERY good points have been made.

I just have one question, at St. Jeromes hospital, you recive a note from Joseph saying 'go to the very bottom of me' then when you do you see Josephs head sticking out of the ceiling! does this mean that walter mabey... used joseph to crate the world?

a article I read said that Joseph's body was never found, so could it have been superimposed in the apartment, to create the 'other world'? this would explain why the first 10 murders and the suicide all took place in the real world. and the final ten murders all in the seclusion of walters own private reality that he is the supream ruler over and can alter it to his every whim.

[The Adversary]

The message from Joseph says to "go to the deepest part of him."

[Anonymous]

Same diff. sorry for not being perfect!

[The Adversary]

How are they the same difference?

[Anonymous]

Okay, look, I don't want to argue with the high and mighty St Thomas who can smite me and ban my IP address in aprox. 4.5 milliseconds.

I was just posting my opinions and questions and I cannot look up the direct quote at this time.

I'm sorry if I angered you. just please get off my case.

[LuLu]

Okay, look, I don't want to argue with the high and mighty St Thomas who can smite me and ban my IP address in aprox. 4.5 milliseconds.

I was just posting my opinions and questions and I cannot look up the direct quote at this time.

I'm sorry if I angered you. just please get off my case.

Whoaaa, relax there buddy. St. Thomas was simply just correcting you, I don't think it was meant to get on your case.

But anyhoo, these are really great theories. I find myself learning something new about SH4 everyday, which makes me want to play it over and over.