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Hope House Careworker
 Post subject: Valtiel's role?

Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
I've been told by someone who can read and translate Japanese their have been huge inconsistencies w/ George Rosten's victim file. With this, this brings up many questions...

George Rosten was responsible for the maintenance of the Sect of the Holy Mother as the right-hand man of Jimmy Stone, a priest with an alias "Red Devil." He raised a certain character as a "conjurer" and succeeded in sneaking Valtiel into the unconsciousness realm of the "conjurer."

So...from what i've gathered from this, George Rosten might not have actually raised Walter to perform the 21 Sacraments but the teachers taught Walter & other orphans that the way to resurrect God was by the mystery of the 21 Sacraments. So...this means Valtiel could play a whole new role being inside Walter because you and I both know & easily assume, Valtiel didn't have complete control over Walter. I personally don't think Valtiel had any control over Walter but I do think Valtiel did something/ or is doing something to Walter in his unconsciousness realm/mind.

Many may say that the Red Devil Walter claims to have saw was Valtiel but their's also the inconsistency of it being Jimmy Stone. I think it could actually be Jimmy Stone because how could it be that Ghosts exist in Walter's Other World before he even creates it? Personally, I think the Other World basiclly is Walter's unconsciousness realm, so...I think these ghosts were placed in his mind by either Walter himself or Valtiel. I personally think Walter most likely did it because Conjurer's channel spirits.

But in any case, this find puts a question to what exactly is Valtiel's role? Why would George place him in their? & what effect would it have? What are your thoughts?

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Valtiel's role is to protect the Holy Mother & ensure God's birth.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 25 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: Phillipines,Davao City
St. Thomas wrote:
Valtiel's role is to protect the Holy Mother & ensure God's birth.


Then why doesn't he help Heather out?

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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
He does.

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
But hold on a minute. Why would Valtiel need a vessel [Walter] to find Alessa? I mean, why couldn't Valtiel just find Heather himself, like in SH3? Explain to me....*prepares popcorn*.

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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Perhaps Valtiel has always needed a human to facilitate the search. In SH3, Claudia could have been that person. It makes sense to me that Valtiel's very presence within the consciousness of an individual could grant them the power to manipulate reality or draw people into a nightmarish dream world. That would explain why Claudia and Walter were able to shape the worlds we play through. (though Claudia was not *solely* responsible for the effects on the world of SH3)

Up until now, I've always assumed we could never really know where their powers came from, but now that I think about it...


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
JuriDawn wrote:
Perhaps Valtiel has always needed a human to facilitate the search. In SH3, Claudia could have been that person. It makes sense to me that Valtiel's very presence within the consciousness of an individual could grant them the power to manipulate reality or draw people into a nightmarish dream world. That would explain why Claudia and Walter were able to shape the worlds we play through. (though Claudia was not *solely* responsible for the effects on the world of SH3)

Up until now, I've always assumed we could never really know where their powers came from, but now that I think about it...


I think you could be right about Claudia; simply because the Other World in SH3 basicly is Claudia's reflected counscious, it would make sense we that we see Valtiel [which is probably Claudia's vision of Valtiel].

However, the strange thing about this idea is that Valtiel could have only been inserted in Claudia's mind at the age of 24 because Valtiel most likely leaves Walter's mind after his suicide [he was also 24]. Their's nothing that really hints that Valtiel went into Claudia's mind but many people just assume things anyway.


Last edited by Conjurer on 22 Oct 2006, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I always figured that Valtiel was subconsciously driving Walter to commit the first ten Sacraments, and maybe acted as his personal Pyramid Head to dick around with him in Walter's Trial of the Abyss. After Walter's split, Valtiel goes home and Claudia summons him for SH3 :P Simple.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Conjurer wrote:
However, the strange thing about this idea is that Valtiel could have only been inserted in Claudia's mind at the age of 24 because Valtiel most likely leaves Walter's mind after his suicide [he was also 24]. Their's nothing that really hints that Valtiel went into Claudia's mind....but many people just assume things anyway.


Well, if there's no explicit or implicit evidence to confirm or deny it, we have no choice but to assume. Is there anything to suggest Claudia had her powers from childhood? It's entirely possible, unless I'm forgetting something, that Valtiel entered her consciousness when she was in her twenties. It's also possible that Valtiel is omnipresent, being a god and all.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
JuriDawn wrote:
Well, if there's no explicit or implicit evidence to confirm or deny it, we have no choice but to assume. Is there anything to suggest Claudia had her powers from childhood? It's entirely possible, unless I'm forgetting something, that Valtiel entered her consciousness when she was in her twenties. It's also possible that Valtiel is omnipresent, being a god and all.


Well, lets consider Claudia hung around Alessa a long time in her child-hood and they share the same hardships and interests. So, maybe they both have some concealed power as well? I don't know...how else would Claudia be able to decend God using herself?

AuraTwilight wrote:
I always figured that Valtiel was subconsciously driving Walter to commit the first ten Sacraments, and maybe acted as his personal Pyramid Head to dick around with him in Walter's Trial of the Abyss. After Walter's split, Valtiel goes home and Claudia summons him for SH3 Simple.


It was Walter's own decision to do the 21 Sacraments, in addition, he has a motivation to do so, which is why I don't think Valtiel was controlling or that s/he ever could in the first place. However, I do agree w/ you that he did travel into the Abyss & perhaps that's when he realizes he is being decieved from discovering the truth in the Abyss? If Walter split himself like Alessa, his other half would be a baby. I don't know about you...but I don't want to get into that in this thread unless people really care to hear about it.

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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Conjurer wrote:
...how else would Claudia be able to decend God using herself?

If you'll pardon the assumption, Valtiel's presence. :wink:

Conjurer wrote:
If Walter split himself like Alessa, his other half would be a baby.

That's not necessarily the case. I think that the fact that the split serves a different purpose for Walter than it does Alessa means that the result can be different for each. Walter had a conflict of interests within himself; he was literally torn in two by his guilt and the ensuing trial we assume he faced.

Alessa, on the other hand, needed to escape. She was of one mind in her desire to stop the god's birth. To do that, she was going to need help from outside Silent Hill, but who in their right mind would risk so much to help her? What better way to gain a protector than become a tiny child and get a new parent? Not that I'm convinced that Alessa consciously decided to split herself off as a baby, but it's just so durned convenient!


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
It was Walter's own decision to do the 21 Sacraments, in addition, he has a motivation to do so, which is why I don't think Valtiel was controlling or that s/he ever could in the first place. However, I do agree w/ you that he did travel into the Abyss & perhaps that's when he realizes he is being decieved from discovering the truth in the Abyss? If Walter split himself like Alessa, his other half would be a baby. I don't know about you...but I don't want to get into that in this thread unless people really care to hear about it.


Yes, I know, but Valtiel could've guided him regardless

And no, Walter doesn't have to split into an adult and a baby. Just one half and another.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Valtiel's role?

Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
But in any case, this find puts a question to what exactly is Valtiel's role? Why would George place him in their? & what effect would it have? What are your thoughts?

To answer your question, you must first wonder why it was the Valtiel sect that was intermediating the two sects, and not some other sect. It's widely known that there are three separate sects, but the truth is that there are other sects besides them, and it's only that those three sects are main ones.

The Valtiel sect can act as intermediator because it has something to offer to both sects. If the two opposing sects continue to fight with each other, then the Valtiel sect can decide not to help either of them, and that would be good for neither sects. So, even though they don't like it, they can only agree to the terms laid out by the Valtiel sect.

It's rather obvious why the Holy Woman sect needs Valtiel. As the watcher of the Holy One (Heather: SH3), Valtiel is needed in the process of birthing the god with its usual rites. Someone had to conjure Valtiel for this reason, and it's been theorized that it was the Valtiel sect that had a hand in this. This would be a valid reason why there's a note in Wish House asking if Alessa has been found yet. If they found her, the Valtiel sect can conjure Valtiel to start looking over her.

For similar reasons, the Holy Mother sect with its 21 Sacraments depends on Valtiel for something as well, ensuring the Descent of the Holy Mother, and something that the Valtiel sect has to have a hand in (ala George Rosten's involvement). However, in their case, since the Holy Mother sect does not have an equivalent of a Holy One, the purpose of Valtiel is something else entirely. In Jimmy Stone's profile, Valtiel not only has been worshipped by its sect as "the One close to the god", but more importantly, as an executioner.

Note: Silent Hill Chronicles explains the relationship between Valtiel and Pyramid Head.

Because the fact that Valtiel is worshipped as an executioner has come to light through Jimmy Stone's profile, it's likely that this has something to do with the 21 Sacraments, and which is why George Rosten was sent to educate Walter to become a conjurer; not someone from the Holy Mother sect.

One of the core requirements of the Ritual of the Holy Assumption is the "blood of ten sinners" (in Japanese, "ten hearts of sin"). As a mere mortal, Walter randomly killing anybody for their hearts may not give him the usual rites to collect the "blood of ten sinners". However, this may be a different story if Valtiel lies in Walter's unconscious realm and therefore, he can act as an executioner of sinners. It's my belief that when Walter says that "I did it, but it wasn't me" he's referring to what was inside his unconsciousness: Valtiel. Valtiel kept feeding his subconscious that Walter must execute them.

Considering this, Valtiel's involvement in the 21 Sacraments is clear. In order for the conjurer to collect the "blood of ten sinners" and offer them along with his own blood, he must act in the consciousness of the Order's prime executioner. And only then will the ritual to ascend himself would work.

That is why Valtiel is needed for the 21 Sacraments.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 19 Aug 2006
Notes left: 157
I do not remember seeing Valtiel in Silent Hill 4. Should this be in the Silent Hill 3 section?

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Burning Man wrote:
...Because the fact that Valtiel is worshipped as an executioner...


That does make sense. I'm not sure if you wrote why & i'm not seeing it but why is it that a neutral sect specifically believes in the HM's view of decending God?

AuraTwilight wrote:
And no, Walter doesn't have to split into an adult and a baby. Just one half and another.


Well, the fact that theirs no evidence in Lost Memories or the game that Walter split himself at all & also the fact that he possibly [if at all] only knows how to Conjure spirits.

Gwenfloor wrote:
I do not remember seeing Valtiel in Silent Hill 4. Should this be in the Silent Hill 3 section?


No...

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Newsflash. Silent Hill Chronicles was released before SH4 was, and St. Thomas already explained that there is sufficient evidence in the games.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
AuraTwilight wrote:
Newsflash. Silent Hill Chronicles was released before SH4 was, and St. Thomas already explained that there is sufficient evidence in the games.


You mean he's explained his assumptions. Their's nothing that suggests he did except the line "I did it but it wasn't me!"---which has over a million interpretations.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Conjurer wrote:
Burning Man wrote:
...Because the fact that Valtiel is worshipped as an executioner...


That does make sense. I'm not sure if you wrote why & i'm not seeing it but why is it that a neutral sect specifically believes in the HM's view of decending God?

They (Valtiel sect) don't believe it, per se. You can say they're just "offering their services."


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Burning Man wrote:
They (Valtiel sect) don't believe it, per se. You can say they're just "offering their services."


Why would they do that though? Wouldn't that sort of up-set the balance & kind of anger the HW sect?

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>I think these ghosts were placed in his mind by either Walter himself or Valtiel.
Assumption.

>they share the same hardships and interests.
Assumption.

>It was Walter's own decision to do the 21 Sacraments
Assumption.

>perhaps that's when he realizes he is being decieved from discovering the truth in the Abyss?
Assumption.

>If Walter split himself like Alessa, his other half would be a baby.
Assumption.

Shall I continue?

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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