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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
Burning Man wrote:
They (Valtiel sect) don't believe it, per se. You can say they're just "offering their services."

Why would they do that though? Wouldn't that sort of up-set the balance & kind of anger the HW sect?

I'm quite sure the Holy Woman sect would be upset with that sort of thing.

However, what's important to the Valtiel sect is the descent of Valtiel, since that's the main deity they are worshipping. Educating a conjurer gave them a chance to sneak Valtiel inside a mortal's unconsciousness. The Valtiel sect may have planned to worship Valtiel as Walter.

Not worship Walter himself, but Valtiel using Walter's body? Don't know if that made any sense.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
St. Thomas wrote:
>I think these ghosts were placed in his mind by either Walter himself or Valtiel.
Assumption.

>they share the same hardships and interests.
Assumption.

>It was Walter's own decision to do the 21 Sacraments
Assumption.

>perhaps that's when he realizes he is being decieved from discovering the truth in the Abyss?
Assumption.

>If Walter split himself like Alessa, his other half would be a baby.
Assumption.

Shall I continue?


Yea. I thought I kind of stated those as assumptions anyway...? But what i'm refering to before is that people are starting to refer to your opinions as facts. So...isn't that completly different?

Burning Man wrote:
Not worship Walter himself, but Valtiel using Walter's body? Don't know if that made any sense.


Sort of. But wouldn't they know that their God leaves Walter's mind in the process of the ritual? So wouldn't that ultimatly make him a hard-core dog for the Holy Mother sect & render him unless for being an idol of a sort?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
Burning Man wrote:
Not worship Walter himself, but Valtiel using Walter's body? Don't know if that made any sense.

Sort of. But wouldn't they know that their God leaves Walter's mind in the process of the ritual? So wouldn't that ultimatly make him a hard-core dog for the Holy Mother sect & render him unless for being an idol of a sort?

Not sure what you're getting at.

Why would Valtiel leave Walter's mind in the process of the ritual?


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Burning Man wrote:
Why would Valtiel leave Walter's mind in the process of the ritual?


Well...considering we see Valtiel in SH3 which was sometime after he offered himself & before SH4. You can't stay in the conscience of a corpse, can you? So why put your God in a vessel you know is going to die & no longer hold your God?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
So why put your God in a vessel you know is going to die & no longer hold your God?

I see what you're saying, but, no, they didn't view it as the vessel dying. If Walter performs the Ritual of the Holy Assumption, he's liberating himself from his own flesh. Once the ritual is complete, he is no longer bound by his mortal limtation. Death has little meaning in this case.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Alright. I knew this already, maybe i'm misinterpreting you but I think you said the Valtiel sect would help the HM sect for their own benefit because they possibily could plan to worship their God living in Walter---am I mistaken?

If they did it for this benefit, wouldn't they have the intelligence to realize their God would not stay in this vessel for to long? As i've said, we know Valtiel leaves Walter sometime after the Liberation because we see him in SH3 and possibly SH2.

So...if you forgot my point again, if the Valtiel sect helped the HM sect by planting their God in the Conjurer for their worshipping benefit, wouldn't they know it would be pointless? Because their God would swiftly lose it's vessel. So, don't you think their's another reason they would plant their Lord into Walter?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
As i've said, we know Valtiel leaves Walter sometime after the Liberation because we see him in SH3 and possibly SH2.

No, we don't know if Valtiel leaves Walter sometime after that.

I think you're misinterpreting the whole Valtiel issue, although I see what you're trying to say. Your belief is that Valtiel cannot be in more than one place at once, right?

The thing about Silent Hill is that it has the power to manifest what's in one's unconsciousness (according to Silent Hill Chronicle). Therefore, it's possible for Valtiel to manifest even though it's in one's unconsciousness. In fact, how does one conjure a deity?

I believe a deity is conjured by implanting the "essence of the deity" if you will, into a mortal's unconsciousness and then have either Silent Hill, or people with powers such as Claudia to act as a bridge to manifest itself onto this world. In Alessa's case, I believe that Dahlia implanted the "essence of the god" into Alessa, and in turn a fetus was manifested into her womb. As she continues to feel pain, unconsciously, the manifestation gathers more power.

For Heather's case, most of time she was oblivious that there was a god growing inside her, and it can even be argued that there was none. It's only after her memories (and her unconsciousness) gets triggered, does she feel anything.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
You could be right that Valtiel can exist as multiples but still....I find something amist that I cannot agree w/ here.

As we know, through reading the magazines in SH3, notably the train incident, Ghosts lose their morality. Most likely because their spirit is seperated from their brain & where is the consciousness located? In the brain. So even if Valtiel can appear in multiples, you cannot exist in the consciousness of a corpse. In addition, the Other World in SH4 basically is Walter's mind & yet we never see him or any clues of his existence in this world.

And may I also ask what the point would be for Valtiel to exist in Walter after the Liberation anyway? He is seperated into two & as Joseph explains: "Now he is nothing but an in-human killing machine". This is why I don't exactly agree w/ your theory that George inserted Valtiel for his own religious benefit.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
As we know, through reading the magazines in SH3, notably the train incident, Ghosts lose their morality.

Not necessarily. The occult magazine is talking about specific types of souls: "souls of those who died
suddenly by suicide or accident [...]" In other words, not all ghosts lose their morality.

Quote:
In addition, the Other World in SH4 basically is Walter's mind & yet we never see him or any clues of his existence in this world.

It depends what you define as "clues of his existence". For example, there are those cube-like cages with corpse in them reminiscent of the "Misty Day, Remains of the Judgment." Since Valtiel is the prime executioner and all...

Added to the fact that if the otherworld is Walter's mind, then there in lies his unconsciousness as well. People can argue that the mind is part of the brain, too, and question how a mind can exist in a corpse.

This is Silent Hill, as you know.

Quote:
And may I also ask what the point would be for Valtiel to exist in Walter after the Liberation anyway?

"Redemption of Sin" once the Holy Mother is descended. The idea goes back to SH2 of course, but people were executed and their blood offered to the gods in redemption. Again, since Valtiel is the prime executioner, his place beside the Holy Mother is obvious.

Quote:
He is seperated into two & as Joseph explains: "Now he is nothing but an in-human killing machine".

That doesn't say much, really. Pyramid Head in SH2, for example, can be considered an "in-human killing machine" destroying any monsters in its path. Considering that Pyramid Head is a manifestation of an executioner of the past, if adult Walter is under the influence of Valtiel, it's not far-fetched to see that he is an "in-human killing machine" as well.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
So, are you telling me that you believe the Valtiel sect wanted to make Walter an almost new God-like character to add to their doctrine?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
As we know, through reading the magazines in SH3, notably the train incident, Ghosts lose their morality. Most likely because their spirit is seperated from their brain & where is the consciousness located? In the brain.


Just a nitpick. The Consciousness is the Mind. The Mind is the soul. The soul is the ghost. The ghost is thus contained in the brain, so it doesn't really explain the morality thing. Furthermore, if I may borrow from japanese mythology, the ghost of a person loses morality and sanity from prolonged exposure to the physical world they can no longer interact with. Their mind is forced inward, and thus begins to rot.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
AuraTwilight wrote:
Just a nitpick. The Consciousness is the Mind. The Mind is the soul. The soul is the ghost. The ghost is thus contained in the brain


Interesting. But it's not like their's scientific evidence of this or anything...

So, again, Burning Man, you believe George wanted Walter to be the image of Valtiel? Or atleast some sort of important Executioner idol...?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Interesting. But it's not like their's scientific evidence of this or anything...


Neither is there scientific evidence for ghosts. Dur.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Quote:
Neither is there scientific evidence for ghosts. Dur.


My 'evidence' was from an in-game memo. Your response wasn't from the game nor scientific progress.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Conjurer wrote:
So, again, Burning Man, you believe George wanted Walter to be the image of Valtiel? Or atleast some sort of important Executioner idol...?

I guess you could say that.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
I guess I could accept the theory as a possibility.


Last edited by Conjurer on 27 Oct 2006, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
My 'evidence' was from an in-game memo. Your response wasn't from the game nor scientific progress.


Yea, and in order for the concept of Ghosts to work AT ALL, you need to believe the mind/consciousness are seperateable from the human body.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 16 Sep 2006
Notes left: 62
Valtiel was (literal translation) God's Valet but not a god right, he was an angel of sorts?

I thought Valtiels primary focus was ensuring the successful birth of god, but not a driving force of anyone's motivations.


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
>Valtiel was (literal translation) God's Valet but not a god right, he was an angel of sorts?

Quote:
God created beings to lead people
in obedience to Her.
The red god, Xuchilbara;
the yellow god, Lobsel Vith;
many gods and angels.

It's commonly accepted that Xuchilbara is Valtiel.

If driving such motivations as Walter's could bring about the birth of the god, I'm sure Valtiel was up for it.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 16 Sep 2006
Notes left: 62
ok I can agree with that. Pyramid Head and Valtiel ARE manefistations of Xuchilbara.

Pyramid head = executioner
Walter = executioner

This is a good way to correlate Walter and Valtiel.

In a way you <u>could</u> derive that Walter is a manifestation of Xuchilbara by means of religious conditioning. Made into the executioner?

Valtiel never shows up in the game.......or is he Big Walter?

Nah.....or............?


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