The "god" of SH4?

[Conjurer]

Many claim in the 21 sacraments ending, Walter's vision of the holy mother is projected, room 302 and i've also heard of people saying that the nigtmarishly 302 could also be Walter's vision of paradise, I cannot agree with any of these. We see room 302 in the same condition in Henry's dream and in the Mother Ending, if nightmare room 302 is supposedly Walter's vision of paradise, wouldn't their need to be the god first? In any case, where exactly is the god in the 21 sacraments ending because otherwise seeing room 302 in nightmare mode, we do not see Walter's vision of god.

[Mis Krist.]

If the God is the room, it doesn't need to be a vision of anything else but that. The room is his paradise. Mother is his God--The room is what he uses as a vessel to "impregnate" with God. We see Walter's vision all the time, whenever Henry's in the room, in the endings... So... yeah.

I'm not saying the cult sees God as synonymous with Paradise. A mother is what Walter's been after from the start, and he used the 21 Sacraments ritual in a way that Jimmy Stone et. al. didn't anticipate, that is using their own members as sacraments.

Who knows? SH4's ending didn't give us a clear cut view of the events to the rest of the world after the apartment was invaded. In the 21 Sacraments ending we're shown a young Walter with an older Walter finally inside the apartment--young Walter rejoices and promises to never leave again. That, the reunification with Mother, is Walter's Paradise. The Room is filled with the "essence" of God, or some other sinister presence: how else do you explain the effects on the apartment complex's residents in the 21S ending?, or how Henry's apartment is still tainted thanks to the "hauntings." The hauntings are vital to Walter's plan--it's not just a thing for spooks and effects. Because you didn't cleanse the apartment fully of the Otherworld's influence, the Otherworld is here to stay--thus, you could say "God" was born.

[MeatyDistraction]

I saw Walter as the god.

[Figurine]

Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray

The room is his mother, which is also God. Of course the room is going to look the same no matter what, would you vision a heavenly image of your mother in paradise, or have her look the same?

[swedish]

I saw Walter as the god.

He's not. He may have god like powers, but that's because he did the Ritual of the Holy Assumption and gained "The Power of Heaven".

[Conjurer]

If the God is the room, it doesn't need to be a vision of anything else but that. The room is his paradise. Mother is his God--The room is what he uses as a vessel to "impregnate" with God. We see Walter's vision all the time, whenever Henry's in the room, in the endings... So... yeah.

I'm not saying the cult sees God as synonymous with Paradise. A mother is what Walter's been after from the start, and he used the 21 Sacraments ritual in a way that Jimmy Stone et. al. didn't anticipate, that is using their own members as sacraments.

Who knows? SH4's ending didn't give us a clear cut view of the events to the rest of the world after the apartment was invaded. In the 21 Sacraments ending we're shown a young Walter with an older Walter finally inside the apartment--young Walter rejoices and promises to never leave again. That, the reunification with Mother, is Walter's Paradise. The Room is filled with the "essence" of God, or some other sinister presence: how else do you explain the effects on the apartment complex's residents in the 21S ending?, or how Henry's apartment is still tainted thanks to the "hauntings." The hauntings are vital to Walter's plan--it's not just a thing for spooks and effects. Because you didn't cleanse the apartment fully of the Otherworld's influence, the Otherworld is here to stay--thus, you could say "God" was born.

If you say the apartment was being used to birth god as you say, then whats the point of Eileen who's taking the role as the mother?

And what your saying is, technically his "vision of god" is already their and is able to bring his vision to paradise "Nightmare room 302" even without the 21 Sacraments? So I guess it would seem that after the sacraments didn't have to do much?

[Mis Krist.]

I haven't played SH4 as much as I have the other games so a lot of this on my part is going based on what I remember. And memory isn't such a reliable thing. She's a Sacrament. She's needed for the entire ritual. Just like everyone else's death is needed. Eileen wasn't going to BECOME God or his Mother--how could she, when she'd walk into a device that ripped her apart?

Like I said, my memory's bad about this game and I haven't come to fully appreciate the story, but what I can grasp is that Eileen's survival and the survival of your room are vital to this game. Preserve the room as you would Eileen and vice versa, as both are important to you, and important to Walter's cause. The fact that the room is infested, and Henry and Eileen foolishly plan on going back into it, suggests that the 21 Sacraments will be completed, regardless of Walter no longer being alive (That's the Mother ending. Eileen sitting in bed at the hospital, telling Henry "Well, I guess I can go back to South Ashfield Heights now..." and we're given a shot of Henry's room, which is infested and screwed up. Chances are, this won't abide well for the two of them. Although if Henry's apartment was screwed up and he went to visit Eileen the day AFTER, I don't see why he would agree to bring her back to it....) The room is tainted because Henry didn't cleanse it entirely during the game, and because of this infestation/impregnation of otherworldy bad shit, I can't see anything but death arising from it.

While their deaths might not contribute to Walter's cause, they're still pretty much marked for becoming daisy pushers.

[Conjurer]

I didn't say Eileen would become god or Walter's mother, that's just weird. What I tried to express was if the Decent of the Holy Mother required you to sacrifice the Mother of God [atleast someone taking the role], why would you place the god seed in room 302 because technically, wouldn't that make room 302 the mother of god? And I know about being able to place god seeds in objects, the SH Play Novel expresses this, so i've heard. So anyway, what i'm trying to get at, wouldn't Walter actually be placing the god seed inside Eileen so she would take the role of the mother reborn? The whole religion ordeal and Walter's interpretation of it is a tad confusing, i'm sure most of you would agree . . .

[The Adversary]

>wouldn't Walter actually be placing the god seed inside Eileen so she would take the role of the mother reborn?
No. When you die here, you die in the real world too. Eileen dies in the grinder, she dies in the hospital bed, thus making it impossible for her to be his Mother Reborn. The objective of the Descent of the Holy Mother is to birth God--aka The Holy Mother; not to be confused with the Mother Reborn; also not to be confused with The Holy Mother of God. Just as in the previous games, God takes on the appearance of Its Conjurer's volition--in this instance, Walter wants Room 302 to be God.

>if the Decent of the Holy Mother required you to sacrifice the Mother of God
It doesn't require this. That's where you're confused.

[MeatyDistraction]

I saw Walter as the god.

He's not. He may have god like powers, but that's because he did the Ritual of the Holy Assumption and gained "The Power of Heaven".

I know that. I just mean, he kind of controlled everything that went on, so he was the God.

[Conjurer]

>wouldn't Walter actually be placing the god seed inside Eileen so she would take the role of the mother reborn?
No. When you die here, you die in the real world too. Eileen dies in the grinder, she dies in the hospital bed, thus making it impossible for her to be his Mother Reborn. The objective of the Descent of the Holy Mother is to birth God--aka The Holy Mother; not to be confused with the Mother Reborn; also not to be confused with The Holy Mother of God. Just as in the previous games, God takes on the appearance of Its Conjurer's volition--in this instance, Walter wants Room 302 to be God.

>if the Decent of the Holy Mother required you to sacrifice the Mother of God
It doesn't require this. That's where you're confused.

I already new this ritual was to summon the cults god. I thought this ritual was a means of "resurrecting" the God not birthing it. If birthing god was the case of this ritual, why would Walter go through all the trouble of killing all these people when he could just kidnap women or objects with the power to birth god [or at least the delusion of god]. Why would the cult bible call the title "Mother Reborn"? The word "Mother" is usually used for women subjects for birthing god and as I said, I thought this was a ritual of resurrecting god instead of birthing it, and I thought, by "Mother Reborn", they meant the God's mother being sacrificed instead of being used for birthing the god. Otherwise, why would they use the title "Mother Reborn", why didn't they just say "mother" or "guardian" or something...I hope you know why I am getting this disoriented.

Do you think it's possible the god's spirit was placed in room 302? Otherwise, the "essence" of god being in room 302 doesn't make to much sense as I talked about room 302's condition and it's prooven that god can possess people [SH3] or at least the delusion of god.

[The Adversary]

>I hope you know why I am getting this disoriented.
There's no reason to be. Take it for what it is & don't try to confuse yourself. It's all a matter of terminology: people seem to intentionally flummox themselves by thinking too hard about it. It's all very simple.

[Conjurer]

>I hope you know why I am getting this disoriented.
There's no reason to be. Take it for what it is & don't try to confuse yourself. It's all a matter of terminology: people seem to intentionally flummox themselves by thinking too hard about it. It's all very simple.

[Yana]

I was never sure what the god was, but I had an idea it was the room, with the ending I got.

[Conjurer]

If the God is the room, it doesn't need to be a vision of anything else but that. The room is his paradise. Mother is his God--The room is what he uses as a vessel to "impregnate" with God. We see Walter's vision all the time, whenever Henry's in the room, in the endings... So... yeah.

I'm not saying the cult sees God as synonymous with Paradise. A mother is what Walter's been after from the start, and he used the 21 Sacraments ritual in a way that Jimmy Stone et. al. didn't anticipate, that is using their own members as sacraments.

Who knows? SH4's ending didn't give us a clear cut view of the events to the rest of the world after the apartment was invaded. In the 21 Sacraments ending we're shown a young Walter with an older Walter finally inside the apartment--young Walter rejoices and promises to never leave again. That, the reunification with Mother, is Walter's Paradise. The Room is filled with the "essence" of God, or some other sinister presence: how else do you explain the effects on the apartment complex's residents in the 21S ending?, or how Henry's apartment is still tainted thanks to the "hauntings." The hauntings are vital to Walter's plan--it's not just a thing for spooks and effects. Because you didn't cleanse the apartment fully of the Otherworld's influence, the Otherworld is here to stay--thus, you could say "God" was born.

I like this.

But how could Walter impregnate room 302? Doesn't the object have to emit a kind of power to be able to birth god like the SH Play Novel explains?

Alessa didn't really give birth on how we usually view it, she seemed to have transformed into god, sort of. So is that what your trying to get at with room 302? But since room 302 was Walter's subconcious vision of god, it didn't really "show" a transformation...?

[Mis Krist.]

Pretty much, yeah. Room 302 indeedly transformed itself over the course of the game.. and as for how Walter could "impregnate" the room, I'm pretty sure that his presence in the backroom & the ritual he performed there is what lead to the Room's "impregnation" with this otherworldly essence. It's plain to see that the slowly growing state of ruin the Room experiences as you progress through the game is evidence to this, as well as the obvious (chains on the door, hole in the bathroom wall, staticy radio, inability to be heard or seen on the outside).

[Conjurer]

Pretty much, yeah. Room 302 indeedly transformed itself over the course of the game.. and as for how Walter could "impregnate" the room, I'm pretty sure that his presence in the backroom & the ritual he performed there is what lead to the Room's "impregnation" with this otherworldly essence. It's plain to see that the slowly growing state of ruin the Room experiences as you progress through the game is evidence to this, as well as the obvious (chains on the door, hole in the bathroom wall, staticy radio, inability to be heard or seen on the outside).

Don't you think it's possible that this ritual also doesn't involve a placement of a seed?

[Folterung]

the god was room 302, which is percieved as a mothers womb. the 21 sacraments led to the room going from henrys room to walter's mother's womb, thus defining the changes and so called "hauntings" taking place as they intensified nearing the end of the sacraments. is it possible the room was doing this because the "mother" had realized that henry is not her son?

@Osmund saddler

i believe the god Walter believed in and the god Claudia and Dahlia believed in were of two different sects of the order. two rival sects as a matter of fact: the Sect of the Holy Woman and the Sect of the Holy Mother
Holy woman being the God from games 1 and 3
holy mother being, as percieved from walter, room 302

[Valtiels Nurse]

the god was room 302, which is percieved as a mothers womb. the 21 sacraments led to the room going from henrys room to walter's mother's womb, thus defining the changes and so called "hauntings" taking place as they intensified nearing the end of the sacraments. is it possible the room was doing this because the "mother" had realized that henry is not her son?

@Osmund saddler

i believe the god Walter believed in and the god Claudia and Dahlia believed in were of two different sects of the order. two rival sects as a matter of fact: the Sect of the Holy Woman and the Sect of the Holy Mother
Holy woman being the God from games 1 and 3
holy mother being, as percieved from walter, room 302

That's what I always thought the room was, a representation of the mother's womb. But I remember something from Biology class that may help or may be too far-fetched. When the child becomes stressed, the mother becomes distressed as well and that's when contractions begin. Perhaps the hauntings are contractions, trying to push out Henry, and the umbilical cord (the healing power of the room) has been severed or has ceased to function in the second half of the game. As the womb is a comforting place for Walter, that is why he wishes his "mother" by using the sacrements. Of course the 21 sacrements were only a means of reviving God, not his mother.

And the two sects in the different games were always are at battle with each other, so even if one had birthed God, the other would still try to do it their way.


Spoiler: This may be a bit off topic, but didn't James use the 21 sacrements to summon his wife in the ritual ending, or something similar?

[Conjurer]

the god was room 302, which is percieved as a mothers womb. the 21 sacraments led to the room going from henrys room to walter's mother's womb, thus defining the changes and so called "hauntings" taking place as they intensified nearing the end of the sacraments. is it possible the room was doing this because the "mother" had realized that henry is not her son?

@Osmund saddler

i believe the god Walter believed in and the god Claudia and Dahlia believed in were of two different sects of the order. two rival sects as a matter of fact: the Sect of the Holy Woman and the Sect of the Holy Mother
Holy woman being the God from games 1 and 3
holy mother being, as percieved from walter, room 302

That's what I always thought the room was, a representation of the mother's womb. But I remember something from Biology class that may help or may be too far-fetched. When the child becomes stressed, the mother becomes distressed as well and that's when contractions begin. Perhaps the hauntings are contractions, trying to push out Henry, and the umbilical cord (the healing power of the room) has been severed or has ceased to function in the second half of the game. As the womb is a comforting place for Walter, that is why he wishes his "mother" by using the sacrements. Of course the 21 sacrements were only a means of reviving God, not his mother.

And the two sects in the different games were always are at battle with each other, so even if one had birthed God, the other would still try to do it their way.


Spoiler: This may be a bit off topic, but didn't James use the 21 sacrements to summon his wife in the ritual ending, or something similar?

If you get the Rebirth Ending requirments, James will supposedly conduct the ritual of Crimson Ceremony.