Valtiel's role?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 22 Sep 2006

Valtiel was placed in Walter's consciousness as a child, but it's uncertain if he's still there by the time of SH4.

Post by **Witness420** » 22 Sep 2006

Perhaps Valtiel becomes a part of Big Wally's conscienceness. Considering it is Big Wally who seems fueled by religious motivations not lil Wally.

Post by **JuriDawn** » 22 Sep 2006

Witness420 wrote:ok I can agree with that. Pyramid Head and Valtiel ARE manefistations of Xuchilbara.

Pyramid head = executioner
Walter = executioner

No, actually. Pyramid Head is not Xuchilbara, just a manifestation of James's subconscious.
Discussed here and here.

Post by **Witness420** » 22 Sep 2006

Not the pyramid head from sh2, just in general. Pyramid Head is *speculated" to be a manefistation of Valtiel. My bad.

Quotes from wikipedia
"The markings Alessa spread in Silent Hill 1 show up once in Silent Hill 2: on the floor of the hotel in the final battle against the two Pyramid Heads. This, coupled with the fact that Pyramid Head is affected by a siren similar to the one heard in Silent Hill 1, calls to question whether Pyramid Head was entirely a construct of James Sunderland, or if they are real creatures controlled by some sort of higher power."

"It is suspected that Valtiel has some connection to the Pyramid Head character"

"Xuchilbara (Xuchilpaba) Is the red God of Silent Hill. Xuchilbara is the God of Rebirth, the shifter of worlds, an executioner, and a tormentor, amongst other things. There has been speculation that Valtiel or Pyramid Head may be manifestations of Xuchilbara."

It's possible though:)

Post by **JuriDawn** » 23 Sep 2006

*pulls out well-used notecard and reads*

Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information as the average apeman capable of accessing the internet is allowed to create and edit the entries. If I decide to write that Pyramid Head is actually an eight year old girl named Susan, then Wikipedia will say that Pyramid Head is an eight year old girl named Susan. The best theories and conclusions can cite in-game evidence and/or any other direct source material (strategy guides or statements from Team Silent).

It is quite understandable to mistake Wikipedia for a credible source of information once, but now that you know better, I hope you can find more tenable sources from which to derive your theories. Have a nice day.

*tucks notecard away*

Post by **Witness420** » 23 Sep 2006

And this is a reliable source??????????LOLZ. umm thats exactly what we are doing here. I never said wiki was a dead to rights no it all and it is the truth thing. Just that out of the users of the game, a collaboration of ideas about the world of SH.

Perhaps this you'll respect more
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg84-85.jpg
Creators comments on Valtiel.
"The God and Pyramid Head takes the shape of Valtiels reason for existence."

i.e. a manifestation of Valtiel. If it is "commonly" accepted that Valtiel is Xuchilpaba then where am I wrong......?

**rips up yr notecards**

Post by **JuriDawn** » 23 Sep 2006

Simma down nah. No need to get abrasive. The sentence you quoted does not say that Pyramid Head is a manifestation of Valtiel. You're reading it wrong because you want to be right. It says (and it seems to have been a particularly difficult phrase to translate--keep in mind that this is a fan translation--because it sounds a bit awkward) "Pyramid Head takes the shape of Valtiel's reason for existence." Valtiel's reason for existence does not equal Valtiel.

Since it doesn't appear you've actually read the threads I referenced for you (that cite actual in-game facts) I'll quote the relevant posts here:

Regarding the fourth chapel painting in SH3--

St. Thomas wrote:If you examine the painting closely, you'll notice that a red pyramid thing is in the background, to the upper left side. Now, if you look even closer, you'll see that a young girl is holding God up, wearing a red dress. On the other side of God is a young girl in a yellow dress.

If the red pyramid thing were the red god, why would it be presented in two different forms in the same painting?, in two different places?, particularly when Valtiel is not seen in the form we have only ever seen it--from Silent Hill 3.

Valtiel in SH2--

St. Thomas wrote: >If the Red God is a part of SH2, and it's not PH, then what is it?
I've already stated this: Valtiel. Xuchilbara is only a part of the Rebirth ending--its presence is nowhere else but as the "old god"--the ones that "haven't left this place"--James is talking about to himself.

If the red pyramid thing is a unique god, then let me ask you this: how can there be two of them? Pyramid Head is a tool used specifically to force James to face the truth of his actions.

Regarding the nature of Pyramid Head (this one's kind of lengthy so I'll spoiler-box it):

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

alone in the town wrote: The popular theories of Pyramid Head generally lead to one of several conclusions:

A). He's an executioner, to torment and punish James for his crime.

B). He's a rapist, and serves to remind James of his sexual repression.

C). He's the servant of some higher-power, tormenting James for his master's purposes.

And so on. What most people generally agree upon is that Pyramid Head is one bad muthafucka, and rotten to the core.

I say, he's getting a bad rap. I have come to the conclusion that Pyramid Head is helpful, in his own special way. I think Maria is James' true adversary.

For starters, Pyramid Head and Maria interact rather frequently, and the end result is always Maria getting killed in some creative way. We hate him for that, don't we? What a bastard, killing an unarmed woman!

But what we are seeing is not merely a demon killing a woman. We are seeing a battle play out before our eyes, and it is a symbolic battle. What we are seeing is James' mind doglocked in civil war. We are seeing two dominant aspects of his tortured mind engaged in mortal combat for supremacy.

First, we have to categorize Maria. What is Maria?

She is an illusion. She's a fake, a false Mary, a false face. And at the end of the game, we see that face removed, with the real face beneath. She is there to tempt James, to lead him away from Mary.

Most importantly, she symbolizes the delusion that James suffers. He spends much of the game completely unaware of what he did to his wife. He doesn't really know it, but he can't find Mary without breaking through this delusion of his. Maria is the embodiment of this delusion, for she herself is an illusion. If you stay with her, care for her, and associate too closely with her, in the end, you must instead fight Mary. James forsakes his wife and instead decides to embrace his delusion, to live in fantasy. Of course, the ending implies that it's a decision he'll soon regret.

Pyramid Head is the counter-effect. Like so many people theorize, Pyramid Head is indicative of James, but only in a passing sense. He is much more symbolic of the truth, of reality. On occasion he directly bullies James, but he never really seems like he intends to kill James. In the apartments, he gets quite brutal but he gives up rather quickly. In the Labyrinth, he appears twice. In one instance, you can pass him by without even seeing him. In the other, where he has his Great Knife, he stalks around in a circle, perhaps to keep you away from his belongings and keep you going the way you're supposed to. Note that if you go down there and do not step into the outer ring, Pyramid Head will walk right by James and ignore his presence. Even when he knocks James off the roof, it's quite clear that he's pulling his punches. What he's doing is doling out the tough love, in a sense.

But more importantly, Pyramid Head's claim to fame is that he kills Maria in particularly brutal fashion, and he does this three seperate times. In the hospital basement, Pyramid Head directly assaults Maria. He will not bother James unless James gets in the way. The final time, when there are two Pyramid Heads, James watches Maria die once again. But this time, he gets the point. He understands what Pyramid Head is, and what Maria really is. The Pyramid Heads attack again, but just as before, they don't really seem to have their heart in it. They're simply reinforcing what James seems to have realized. Once he does, they end themselves, for they have served their purpose and achieved their goal. They then open the way to Maria, the true adversary. Pyramid Head has killed Maria repeatedly as instruction to James; to tell him that he must do it himself. She is the demon, she is the illusion, and you will never get what you want while she survives.

Maria now wears a different false face, that of Mary's, but Mary she's not, and she's free to admit it. This is her last, most desperate attempt to beguile James, the last remnants of the illusion hanging on for dear life. James will have no part of it, and damns her for what she is. The illusion is finally broken, but it must be destroyed, and that's what James does. The monstrous Maria attacks, and he defeats her. The last threads of this falsehood fade away as Maria chants James' name. He severs them for good with whatever weapon he's got. The part of his mind that clung to the falsehood he perpetrated is no more, having been cast out. He is then free to face Mary, and to say what needs to be said.

What about the Maria ending?

Well, go back to the final 2 Pyramid Head battle. They still give up and give in, but not because they've served their purpose. Rather, in this case, they are no longer effective. They cannot break James of his illusion, as he is set on Maria. Therefore, the rational, truth-seeking part of his mind has one last trick left; Mary herself. Mary is the antithesis of Maria in this sense, she is desperately trying to make James realize the truth. James refuses this, and defeats the shade of his wife. He does know the truth, but he is willing to hide it away again, to imprison it for good, which he does, as Mary chants his name and he aims his gun at her head. He is now free to continue living in his delusion, along with his illusion, Maria.

That's from this thread.

Post by **Mits_Giotix** » 23 Sep 2006

JuriDawn wrote:
Regarding the nature of Pyramid Head (this one's kind of lengthy so I'll spoiler-box it):
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
alone in the town wrote: The popular theories of Pyramid Head generally lead to one of several conclusions:

A). He's an executioner, to torment and punish James for his crime.

B). He's a rapist, and serves to remind James of his sexual repression.

C). He's the servant of some higher-power, tormenting James for his master's purposes.

And so on. What most people generally agree upon is that Pyramid Head is one bad muthafucka, and rotten to the core.

I say, he's getting a bad rap. I have come to the conclusion that Pyramid Head is helpful, in his own special way. I think Maria is James' true adversary.

For starters, Pyramid Head and Maria interact rather frequently, and the end result is always Maria getting killed in some creative way. We hate him for that, don't we? What a bastard, killing an unarmed woman!

But what we are seeing is not merely a demon killing a woman. We are seeing a battle play out before our eyes, and it is a symbolic battle. What we are seeing is James' mind doglocked in civil war. We are seeing two dominant aspects of his tortured mind engaged in mortal combat for supremacy.

First, we have to categorize Maria. What is Maria?

She is an illusion. She's a fake, a false Mary, a false face. And at the end of the game, we see that face removed, with the real face beneath. She is there to tempt James, to lead him away from Mary.

Most importantly, she symbolizes the delusion that James suffers. He spends much of the game completely unaware of what he did to his wife. He doesn't really know it, but he can't find Mary without breaking through this delusion of his. Maria is the embodiment of this delusion, for she herself is an illusion. If you stay with her, care for her, and associate too closely with her, in the end, you must instead fight Mary. James forsakes his wife and instead decides to embrace his delusion, to live in fantasy. Of course, the ending implies that it's a decision he'll soon regret.

Pyramid Head is the counter-effect. Like so many people theorize, Pyramid Head is indicative of James, but only in a passing sense. He is much more symbolic of the truth, of reality. On occasion he directly bullies James, but he never really seems like he intends to kill James. In the apartments, he gets quite brutal but he gives up rather quickly. In the Labyrinth, he appears twice. In one instance, you can pass him by without even seeing him. In the other, where he has his Great Knife, he stalks around in a circle, perhaps to keep you away from his belongings and keep you going the way you're supposed to. Note that if you go down there and do not step into the outer ring, Pyramid Head will walk right by James and ignore his presence. Even when he knocks James off the roof, it's quite clear that he's pulling his punches. What he's doing is doling out the tough love, in a sense.

But more importantly, Pyramid Head's claim to fame is that he kills Maria in particularly brutal fashion, and he does this three seperate times. In the hospital basement, Pyramid Head directly assaults Maria. He will not bother James unless James gets in the way. The final time, when there are two Pyramid Heads, James watches Maria die once again. But this time, he gets the point. He understands what Pyramid Head is, and what Maria really is. The Pyramid Heads attack again, but just as before, they don't really seem to have their heart in it. They're simply reinforcing what James seems to have realized. Once he does, they end themselves, for they have served their purpose and achieved their goal. They then open the way to Maria, the true adversary. Pyramid Head has killed Maria repeatedly as instruction to James; to tell him that he must do it himself. She is the demon, she is the illusion, and you will never get what you want while she survives.

Maria now wears a different false face, that of Mary's, but Mary she's not, and she's free to admit it. This is her last, most desperate attempt to beguile James, the last remnants of the illusion hanging on for dear life. James will have no part of it, and damns her for what she is. The illusion is finally broken, but it must be destroyed, and that's what James does. The monstrous Maria attacks, and he defeats her. The last threads of this falsehood fade away as Maria chants James' name. He severs them for good with whatever weapon he's got. The part of his mind that clung to the falsehood he perpetrated is no more, having been cast out. He is then free to face Mary, and to say what needs to be said.

What about the Maria ending?

Well, go back to the final 2 Pyramid Head battle. They still give up and give in, but not because they've served their purpose. Rather, in this case, they are no longer effective. They cannot break James of his illusion, as he is set on Maria. Therefore, the rational, truth-seeking part of his mind has one last trick left; Mary herself. Mary is the antithesis of Maria in this sense, she is desperately trying to make James realize the truth. James refuses this, and defeats the shade of his wife. He does know the truth, but he is willing to hide it away again, to imprison it for good, which he does, as Mary chants his name and he aims his gun at her head. He is now free to continue living in his delusion, along with his illusion, Maria.
That's from this thread.

Oh,Gods...that was sheer,pure poetry! I truly believe that what is written in the spoiler tag is something to think about...

Post by **Conjurer** » 28 Sep 2006

Burning Man wrote:However, in their case, since the Holy Mother sect does not have an equivalent of a Holy One, the purpose of Valtiel is something else entirely.

Well, actually, they Holy Mother sect has an equivalent, the Mother Stone, in which the Play Novel Memo mentions that a saint doesn't have to be limited to a ceremonial leader & can even be a lifeless object

Post by **lain of the wired** » 03 Oct 2006

My 'evidence' was from an in-game memo. Your response wasn't from the game nor scientific progress.

No, but the whole thing about Japanese mythology certainly resonates spot on with the game, especially since the game is developed by the Japanese, and they've incorporated their mythology into the games before, so...

And to answer your question, no: they weren't trying to make Walter a new god.

Anyway, yeah, AITT's theory on PH is fantastic- he really put a lot of thought into it.

Post by **Conjurer** » 04 Oct 2006

And to answer your question, no: they weren't trying to make Walter a new god.

Then why would the Valtiel sect put their God into Walter Sullivan in the first place?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 05 Oct 2006

To stop him from doing the Sacraments.

Post by **Conjurer** » 05 Oct 2006

That doesn't even make sense.

Post by **lain of the wired** » 05 Oct 2006

Not quite, AT- they were trying to bring god's birth about, from what I understand. Hence the leeches in the drinking water and all that. Trying to "implant" something and hope the individual suffers enough that it grew into the god. He was simply one of many who recieved that treatment. But he was selected for other things (training) later.

Post by **Conjurer** » 05 Oct 2006

Conjurer wrote:
And to answer your question, no: they weren't trying to make Walter a new god.
Then why would the Valtiel sect put their God into Walter Sullivan in the first place?

Lain, please answer my question. If you think Burning Man's explaination of why the Valtiel sect would lay a hand in a ritual they didn't even believe in, then why did they plant their God inside Walter Sullivan? For kicks 'n giggles? I doubt it.

Post by **lain of the wired** » 05 Oct 2006

You act as though I'm avoiding the question, which I don't believe you actually asked.

Quite honestly, I'm not certain I follow his theory fully, (as in I don't believe all of it, not that I don't understand it). And I'm not going to try to explain something I don't believe (unlike some), because I know I won't be able to express it correctly and without bias. Therefore, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to avoid the question, after all.

Post by **Conjurer** » 05 Oct 2006

lain of the wired wrote:You act as though I'm avoiding the question, which I don't believe you actually asked.

I did though...I assure you.

lain of the wired wrote:And I'm not going to try to explain something I don't believe (unlike some)

Please drop the vendetta, as I've asked you nicely through our PM discussion.

Post by **lain of the wired** » 05 Oct 2006

I did though...I assure you.

I've reread through, now- my bad.
What vendetta? I got nothin' 'gainst nobody. Honest. That weren't meant for you. Had I meant you, I would have said "unlike you". That's vendetta-driven. Be cool now, honey-bunny.

Post by **Conjurer** » 05 Oct 2006

I just assumed you were refering to me because well . . . I once tried explaining a theory I didn't believe.

Post by **lain of the wired** » 05 Oct 2006

Assumptions make an ass out of you and mumptions, m'dear. And mumptions hates being made an ass out of.