Lisa's painting??? (spoilers)

[The Adversary]

Evidence me. Please.

I'm kidding. That's a rhetorical statement. There is no evidence.

[phix95]

I don't know about hard evidence; it was just a pretty commonly accepted theory. It's mentioned here:
http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopi ... isa+killed

I also apologize to the original author of this thread, b/c it kinda stranded from the original question, lol.

[The Adversary]

commonly accepted ≠ true

In this case: About as far as far can be.

Really, there is no evidence to suggest M.K. killed Lisa. She even explicitly tells Harry she's still alive.

[AuraTwilight]

Still doesn't change the fact that a pretty nurse isn't going to deter Harry from finding his daughter. Not much else did--in fact, everything seemed to conspire to make him more determined to find her, if that was at all possible. Not only that, when Lisa pleads for Harry to not leave her (I think after she tells him about the waterworks / sewer) he doesn't listen to what she says. He just comforts her, saying he'll come back as soon as he can. Hell, I think he even offered to have her come along if she was so determined to not be alone. But she said no, and he left anyway.

Just because it doesn't work and it's unfounded to think it would work doesn't mean the intent is still there. By that logic, James never intended to meet Mary and Dahlia never intended to birth God.

No, not entirely. Lisa does nothing Alessa would have her do, assuming—an epic assumption—Lisa is Alessa's creation (which she isn't . . .). The entire argument is flawed: Alessa wants to stop Harry so she creates monsters to kill him; while those monsters fail, she also creates a pretty nurse to stop him from proceeding. How does Lisa attempt to stop Harry? "Please don't leave."

What evidence is there that Lisa isn't a construct? I'm open to either theory, but it seems pretty clear that Lisa is dead; she's either a ghost or a construct, and both seem equally viable. Anyway, the logic makes sense. Brute force doesn't work, so appeal to the man's heart.

Besides, this is all assuming that, if Lisa is a construct, she was made deliberately. She could be working off subconscious nuances instead of deliberate puppetmastery.

Cheryl. A construct in the appearance of Cheryl will throw Harry off any day. The dream sequence in the beginning is indication of that.

So, it doesn't make much sense to me that Alessa would create Lisa to stop Harry, when she perfectly knew a better candidate for that job.

This is an excellent point. However, how do we know, theoretically speaking, that Alessa's subconscious desires to stop Harry through emotional appeal, and her wish to revive/save/whatever Lisa didn't combine, intentionally or otherwise?

Besides, the Cheryl construct has one flaw: It can't pull the "I can't leave here!" card, and so Harry will try to get out of Silent Hill while lugging around this construct, which would require him interfering again. There's also two other issues: If he does get to the real world, he can't take this construct with him, presumably, as it's not actually Cheryl but a Maria-type creature, and Alessa's same emotions that wish to stop Harry without hurting him would probably also like to avoid causing him unnecessary hurt. There's also the possible issue of Alessa/Cheryl getting "jealous" of being replaced with a fake.

Really, there is no evidence to suggest M.K. killed Lisa. She even explicitly tells Harry she's still alive.

While I'll give you the M.K. murder point, she's certainly not alive in the manner you seem to be implying. If she was alive, why did she start degenerating after Alessa lost power over her? How do we know she's not just considered "alive" because Alessa recreated/revived her, or that she's not just straight-wrong. Hell, paracitized Cybil is perfectly "alive" during the bossfight, so she might be wrong about the hospital staff being "dead" too.

[Mis Krist.]

>Just because it doesn't work and it's unfounded to think it would work doesn't mean the intent is still there. By that logic, James never intended to meet Mary and Dahlia never intended to birth God.

What type of logic would that be? I fail to see how your examples match up in any conceivable way with what I said.

]>how do we know, theoretically speaking, that Alessa's subconscious desires to stop Harry through emotional appeal, and her wish to revive/save/whatever Lisa didn't combine, intentionally or otherwise?

We don't, but it seems to unnecessarily complicate things, doesn't it? Cheryl's the distraction, Lisa's the.. what was it, that crest thing? Or she's holding it or whatever. I don't see why we'd need to add even more onto her, when someone else already serves the point you want her to have.

[Burning Man]

However, how do we know, theoretically speaking, that Alessa's subconscious desires to stop Harry through emotional appeal, and her wish to revive/save/whatever Lisa didn't combine, intentionally or otherwise?

What Krist. said --- Though, to your advantage, let's say that it did. However, once Alessa realized that her wish to stop Harry didn't work, she should have taken stronger measures.

This part is something that many people will agree on, I'm sure, as some of those people will even say that a possessed Cybil serves that purpose.

There are two issues:

1. It was Lisa herself that gave the information to get to Bachman Road. She could have easily given him a false answer. She didn't.
2. Let's say Alessa's plan simply back-fired there. Let's say Alessa has no control over how Lisa acts and that Lisa acts like her old self. Lisa wants to be helpful, so she gives him the answer. The point here is that, Alessa could have easily created a "Cheryl" afterwards to throw Harry off, but instead uses a possessed Cybil to stop him?

Besides, the Cheryl construct has one flaw: It can't pull the "I can't leave here!" card,

There's no reason that Harry must be kept in the hospital. A Cheryl construct doesn't need to do that nor, as you've correctly deduced, does it make any sense for her to do so.

I brought up the intro sequence for a reason. If Alessa's intentions were to keep Harry from persuing her, then she could have easily created a construction of Cheryl, so that he'll chase that one, but away from where Alessa was planning to put her next marks. This Cheryl can even lure Harry where there are more monsters if Alessa's intentions were to stop him at all costs.

Your other two issues are assuming that Harry reunites with this "Cheryl" and that's not what I was getting at. This "Cheryl" will simply misguide him, running off to places away from Alessa.

The one other major flaw in the theory of "Lisa as a construction" is that it hardly considers the fact that Alessa is still trying to annihilate herself. And that would certainly mean telling Lisa bye-bye a second time. Some people have said that Kaufmann killed her initially... but, Alessa would certainly be the one killing her this time.

[AuraTwilight]

>Just because it doesn't work and it's unfounded to think it would work doesn't mean the intent is still there. By that logic, James never intended to meet Mary and Dahlia never intended to birth God.

What type of logic would that be? I fail to see how your examples match up in any conceivable way with what I said.

If by the logic that Alessa never intended Lisa to be a distraction because it doesn't work, then...

We don't, but it seems to unnecessarily complicate things, doesn't it? Cheryl's the distraction, Lisa's the.. what was it, that crest thing? Or she's holding it or whatever. I don't see why we'd need to add even more onto her, when someone else already serves the point you want her to have.

Cheryl hardly serves as a distraction given the two cases we know.

What Krist. said --- Though, to your advantage, let's say that it did. However, once Alessa realized that her wish to stop Harry didn't work, she should have taken stronger measures.

Assuming she's as lucid and in control as she's made out to be. Do we really know Alessa is all that much more in control than, say, James?

There are two issues:

1. It was Lisa herself that gave the information to get to Bachman Road. She could have easily given him a false answer. She didn't.
2. Let's say Alessa's plan simply back-fired there. Let's say Alessa has no control over how Lisa acts and that Lisa acts like her old self. Lisa wants to be helpful, so she gives him the answer. The point here is that, Alessa could have easily created a "Cheryl" afterwards to throw Harry off, but instead uses a possessed Cybil to stop him?

Yea, because this is the only case where Cherylessa contradicts herself.

There's no reason that Harry must be kept in the hospital. A Cheryl construct doesn't need to do that nor, as you've correctly deduced, does it make any sense for her to do so.

If it doesn't need to stay anywhere, it's not much of a distraction. Harry can pull the "I'm your father" card and lug her around, unimpeded, stopping Alessa.

Your other two issues are assuming that Harry reunites with this "Cheryl" and that's not what I was getting at. This "Cheryl" will simply misguide him, running off to places away from Alessa.

Alright, fair enough. Still, since this Cheryl construct is not used much, if at all, it's pretty clear she doesn't intend to use it, which means she either has no reason to impede Harry (doubtful), or someone/something else already fulfills that role.

The one other major flaw in the theory of "Lisa as a construction" is that it hardly considers the fact that Alessa is still trying to annihilate herself. And that would certainly mean telling Lisa bye-bye a second time. Some people have said that Kaufmann killed her initially... but, Alessa would certainly be the one killing her this time.

Fair enough, but Alessa would also be killing her Daddy and Mommy. She seems a bit too consumed by pain to consciously care, and Lisa's hypothetical revival could've been wholly subconscious.

[Burning Man]

Assuming she's as lucid and in control as she's made out to be. Do we really know Alessa is all that much more in control than, say, James?

Precisely. It's this kind of uncertainty that makes "Alessa controls Lisa" all the more questionable.

Yea, because this is the only case where Cherylessa contradicts herself.

I disagree. I think the general audience misunderstands Alessa. That's why it looks like she's "contradicting" herself.

If it doesn't need to stay anywhere, it's not much of a distraction. Harry can pull the "I'm your father" card and lug her around, unimpeded, stopping Alessa.

You're still doing guess-work. We're not talking "what if" here. Again, I brought the intro scene up for a reason. We already have a scene where a Cheryl-like construct can prove to be an effective distraction, and get Harry "killed" for it.

It doesn't make much sense for Alessa to try other measures when she already knows one that will be effective.

I could understand using Lisa to stop Harry, but only if the Cheryl-like construct failed in some way. Then, sure, I guess one can say that Alessa was trying to use Lisa to succeed where "Cheryl" failed.

It's not like that, is it?

Fair enough, but Alessa would also be killing her Daddy and Mommy.

That's different. No-one said daddy and mommy were constructed through Alessa's guilt.

She seems a bit too consumed by pain to consciously care, and Lisa's hypothetical revival could've been wholly subconscious.

When it comes to guilt, I don't think there's such a thing as "feeling guilty at a subconscious level." I certainly never thought James was feeling guilty at a subconscious level. He simply found a way to lie to himself.

[AuraTwilight]

Precisely. It's this kind of uncertainty that makes "Alessa controls Lisa" all the more questionable.

If it counts for anything, I never believed that Alessa deliberately controlled Lisa. At most, I think she would, like Maria, be controlled by subconscious "programming", but otherwise be a free agent.

I disagree. I think the general audience misunderstands Alessa. That's why it looks like she's "contradicting" herself.

Care to elaborate? I think that the fusing of two radically different beings (I know they're the same person, but still) would cause some sort of contradictions. For example, letting Harry find her as Cheryl, and keeping him away as Alessa.

You're still doing guess-work. We're not talking "what if" here. Again, I brought the intro scene up for a reason. We already have a scene where a Cheryl-like construct can prove to be an effective distraction, and get Harry "killed" for it.

The reasoning seems to be that this sequence was some sort of sequence, but that's contrary to the actual dream scene with Lisa, so I believe that actually happened. If the intro scene actually happened, then Harry actually died, and Cherylessa brought him back, meaning she doesn't want him dead. Cheryl as a construct can be a distraction, I'm not denying that. But it seems to be more trouble than it's worth, unlike, say, Lisa, who has other uses aside, so tacking on one more job that doesn't require her leaving her post should be simple.

It doesn't make much sense for Alessa to try other measures when she already knows one that will be effective.

I could understand using Lisa to stop Harry, but only if the Cheryl-like construct failed in some way. Then, sure, I guess one can say that Alessa was trying to use Lisa to succeed where "Cheryl" failed.

It's not like that, is it?

Good points. Perhaps the Cheryl construct did "fail", in that it only makes him more adamant to stop Alessa, which according to Dahlia seems to be threatening or holding Cheryl, and he certainly believes this when he actually confronts Alessa. Whenever he hears or sees Cheryl over the phone or on the TV, he hurries along what he was already doing.

That's different. No-one said daddy and mommy were constructed through Alessa's guilt.

No one said Alessa constructed Lisa with deliberate intent, either. Besides, if she can kill REAL people that she loves who could theoretically live on without her support, killing imitations of loved ones should be trivial.

When it comes to guilt, I don't think there's such a thing as "feeling guilty at a subconscious level." I certainly never thought James was feeling guilty at a subconscious level. He simply found a way to lie to himself.

I didn't mean to imply that the emotion was subconscious. I meant that the acting on it was.

[Self-Seeker]

Could it be a drawing of Lisa that Alessa made?

[PeachySakura24]

I am confused. Is not Thomas the one who came up with the theory that Lisa is dead and a construct to carry the Virun VII crest in the hospital? *confused* I could be wrong.
Lisa fell apart when Alessa was hit with the Flauros. She still didn't want Harry to leave her, even as she starting turning into a monster. I agree with Aura that she is much like Maria in that she was created for a purpose, but also had some amount of her own free will.
It is also a lovely painting that I never noticed before. Good eyes! It means Lisa or Alessa was a student of my old art teacher! Yay!

[GrievousGarland]

I'm going to go ahead and post what I think of Lisa's existence in SH1.

-She's dead. She's been dead since shortly before Harry arrived. She was killed because she was trying to leave (as seen in the opening) and Kauffman is not a man to accept disobedience from someone he has controlled for so long. There was no reason to put those two in the opening if that wasn't the reason.
-She is a construct created by Alessa for multiple reasons. This is made evident in many ways. Lisa is not Lisa to put it simply. Memories from her past 7 years are missing. She doesn't know about what's in the basement. She has no memory of Alessa, and she falls apart when Alessa is taken out of the picture.

Why did Alessa bring her back? It could be a combination of any of these things:

1. To hold the crest for the hospital. There is no trace of one in a place where you think it would have been made the most obvious considering how hospital holds the most significance out of all the places Alessa visits to lay her crests. The only thing that seems out of place there is Lisa.
2. She wanted to bring back the only person that offered her any kindness in those 7 hellish years. It's only natural that Alessa became attached to her. So she reanimated her once she saw her fall so she could sense a piece of familiarity in this town gone to hell.
3. She wanted to put up a pretty "damsel in distress" roadblock to distract that meddling Harry. Sure, it isn't the smartest idea considering Lisa helps him more than stops him... but we're dealing with a 14 year old girl here (one who hasn't been in school for 7 years).
4. Alessa wanted to see Kauffman get dragged to hell for his assistance in her agony, and who better to do that than the murder victim herself?

Now why are Lisa's memories sealed off? I consider that to be Alessa returning the favor to Lisa for all her years of service. Alessa took away all memories of the things that had burdened Lisa over the last 7 years: the drug addiction, Kauffman, and even herself. That gift dissipates though when Alessa is no longer holding Lisa together and she finds her own diary from days past. Plus, Lisa would go wacko if she knew she was dead the whole time.

[AgentX7k]

Also Alessa doesn't really know Harry does she? Even when Cheryl is brought back? Because if not it's understandable she would think something so little would stop Harry, look at what her mother did to her, obviously doesn't have a good role model for parent -> kid relationship. Plus (someone else said) she fell to pieces mentally/physically when Alessa lost control so I always assumed the whole 'she's Alessa's creation thing'.

[AuraTwilight]

Or alternatively, Alessa knows Harry as well as Cheryl does, having been merged back with her, and using Cheryl's conception of "Perfect Daddy", is trying to appeal to Harry's kind nature. Cheryl's seven, she might not realize that her father isn't as kind and self-sacrificing to others as he is to her. She's certainly built him up as a fairy tale hero, and Lisa has all the trappings of a damsel in distress/beautiful princess in a tower.

[GrievousGarland]

Yes, and Alessa is absorbed with fairy tales. So loves them so much they affect her otherworld. In Alessa's mind, the only thing to combat the "White Knight" she saw her father as was to put up a damsel in distress that he would naturally want to save instead.

She was naive to think that Harry would care about anyone else as much as he cared for his own daughter though.

[AuraTwilight]

Exactly. Cherylessa saw her father as perfect, and would go out of his way to help or save anybody. Cheryl didn't realize that she was being treated special by her father.

[whiteclaudia9]

I always wondered why Lisa felt like she had to stay in the hospital, eventhough she was lonely and scared. I'm open to the idea that Alessa used her as a means to distract Harry from finding Cheryl. It's hard to say whether Alessa thought of Harry as Cheryl did. If she was so consumed with destroying herself, why wouldn't she just kill Harry right off the bat? Using a mere distraction when so much was at stake for her...But since they are the same person, maybe she did feel the love that Cherly had for him.

[AuraTwilight]

Lisa couldn't leave because she had the Virun VII Crest for the hospital. Alessa probably refrained from killing Harry because of the Cheryl side of her.

[The Adversary]

Lisa doesn't "fall apart"—or however the [expletive deleted] anyone's put it—when the Flauros is used. She acknowledges something is wrong w/ her and she dies long enough to be reanimated long enough to kill M.K.

[GrievousGarland]

Bullshit. Her eye is twitching. The whole point of putting that in the game was to demonstrate something going wrong with her. You can chose to ignore it if you like, because you seem to hate this commonly accepted theory, just don't expect others to believe you.

I mean, why would a girl's eye twitch from he realizing something (she didn't even know anything when Harry woke with her) yet her body language is all messed up. Plus, in the scene that follows you see her start bleeding blood from every orifice. That's falling apart. Her body could no longer stand on it's own without Alessa.

If that wasn't the case, then she shouldn't have started bleeding. Realizing you have something wrong with you isn't going to do that to you.

EDIT: and just you know, Tomm working on shattered memories disagrees with you. He stated that Lisa was "part of the town." If she was part of the town, she is going to fall apart along with the rest of it, and she does unless you're too blind to notice.