Separation Paradox [spoilers for SH1 and SH3]

[The Adversary]

>I prefer more linear approach
Oh, so the most limited approach. Got it.

[KiramidHead]

Before SH3, the "linear" approach may have been perfectly acceptable, but additions to the canon change that.

[DamienPales]

The hilarious thing is that SH3 (or any future SH game for that matter) doesn't state that Incubator is God. So...all this talk about how you have to take sequels into account or not is kind of beside the point.

[Altrus]

Noted.

One thing I wonder is that Heather is repeatedly referred to as Alessa's 'reincarnation'. How can Alessa be reincarnated while she's still alive?

Reincarnation: cause to appear in a new form, the same way as God in Christianity, was reincarnated as Jesus, God wasn't non-existent when he did but he created and was Jesus.

Plus, they were in Otherworld, basically Alessa's mind in the first game, she already existed as both Alessa and Cheryl their, so she could exist as herself and a baby just as easily.

[alone in the town]

You're confusing your terms. Jesus was God incarnate, not reincarnate.

Reincarnation, by its very meaning, requires that the soul no longer occupies its original physical form. Death of the original form is the main foundation of reincarnation. In the case of Christ, he was God's earthly avatar (depending on which interpretation you read). God did not cease to exist in his usual form at any point, and for Jesus to be a reincarnate, this would have to be true.

Other than that, it's a perfect analogy--Jesus was conceived by God himself, just as Heather was created by God herself.

Cheryl and Alessa re-merge into a single being before the game even begins. Cheryl no longer exists after that point, and even before, she was a clone of Alessa who lacked her full soul. Heather has all of the soul (else God could not manifest), so she was not created by the same process.

[DamienPales]

God is a delusion. I think this is the thing we're all forgetting. The only reason that Harry even kills it is precisely because it isn't a real deity.

For God (a mere manifestation) to create an actual human being out of thin air is to abandon the concept of God as a monster on par with Air Screamers and the like.

[alone in the town]

It's no less absurd than a human being splitting her soul in half and creating clones or killing people with thought power. Besides, even if it isn't really a divine being, it's not just a mere delusion, either--something kept Alessa alive all those years, after all.

[Altrus]

It's no less absurd than a human being splitting her soul in half and creating clones or killing people with thought power. Besides, even if it isn't really a divine being, it's not just a mere delusion, either--something kept Alessa alive all those years, after all.

I always thought her psychic powers matched with the town kept her alive...
I ascribe the physical God that appears and the powers of the Order too the town creating them from the members faith, as the monsters are from fear...

But who's too say that Alessa was still alive...or at least physically...when she created the baby she gave too Harry...maybe she was like Lisa by that point, and yes I know Lisa was created in the otherworld by Alessa, but by this point, after the birth and shooting and everything, not physical anymore.

oh course, between the writing, translation, and differences in grammar between Jap and Eng maybe reincarnation was the only word that translated correctly for the origianl term...maybe the writer just didn't have a dictionary around to correctly write out everyword, and that was the only one that worked for him.

[DamienPales]

But it's not absurd where Alessa is concerned because we know she has all these powers that normal people don't. And we also know that the natural power of the town has enhanced her powers in such a way so as to make her very powerful. So as far as she's concerned, anything is possible as long as she's in the town (and alive).

One thing no one's answered: If Incubator is God, then where did Alessa go? You had the mental and physical Alessa together on the floor, and then they get combined and the Incubator shows up. Where did Alessa go then? Besides it being a really odd way to give birth, no mention is made of just how exactly Alessa died.

In SH3, Claudia swallows the fetus, falls into the hole, and God pops out. After Heather kills God, Claudia's clothing is found where the God used to be. I think this scene speaks mountains about what really happened during the equivalent scene in SH1.

[alone in the town]

I think it says exactly nothing of any consequence. You'll say it was a transformation, I'll say it broke through her body (because it sure looked like Claudia was in a terminal state of disintegration), neither of us will explain why she bothered stripping off before either event happened, no one will ever know for certain which explanation is right, and we'll end up bitching about semantics for the next eight pages. Given all that, the lack of a body signifies nothing. Dahlia and Vincent both disappear after dying, too.

What I would like to know is, if the woman in white birthing Heather is Alessa, why does she look like the god she has worked so hard to destroy?

I always thought her psychic powers matched with the town kept her alive...

The rather amazing amount of control she displays over her powers makes this highly suspect.

[DamienPales]

What I would like to know is, if the woman in white birthing Heather is Alessa, why does she look like the god she has worked so hard to destroy?

Lost Memories already answers that question. The God inside Alessa is using her vision of the God as a template. It's a manifestation, so in order to be made manifest, it has to take on the appearance of someone's delusions in order to exist.

But like you said, I don't think that God is "birthed" through the traditional, between-the-legs method. I think God births itself by transforming and taking over the body of whoever is carrying it. While it looks to you like Claudia is disintegrating, I think that's just what the transformation entails. The final product does have the same charred, flaky skin that Claudia had before she fell into the hole, and which Heather suffered several times during the flux between worlds.

Given all that, the lack of a body signifies nothing. Dahlia and Vincent both disappear after dying, too.

But unlike Dahlia and Vincent, the game makes an effort to show Claudia's clothing. I think that that signifies something of import.

[alone in the town]

Yeah--that her body is gone.

Curiously, God does not revert into Claudia upon being defeated.

[LittleRed]

Yeah--that her body is gone.

Curiously, God does not revert into Claudia upon being defeated.

It's possible that she might, since we don't see what Heather sees when she turns around.

But there's all kinds a theories about that moment.

[DamienPales]

Yeah--that her body is gone.

Curiously, God does not revert into Claudia upon being defeated.

Well, God is dead, so that means that Claudia is dead. Why would it revert back into Claudia if it's dead?

This is the part that's different from Silent Hill 1, because Kaufmann throws the Aglaophotis onto Alessa and is able to separate God from her, so that when God dies, Alessa is still alive, though still fatally injured from the separation. When Harry kills Incubator in the Bad endings, God dies and takes Alessa with it. If God was Incubator, then why doesn't God do the baby thing in the Bad endings as well? There's nothing stopping it from creating a new Alessa and giving it to Harry in any of the endings, really. Only in the endings that separate Incubus from Incubator does the latter give Harry a baby, while the ones that have Harry kill the Incubator do we have it dying with Harry seemingly trapped forever in the Otherworld.

[alone in the town]

Why would God have reverted into Alessa upon its death?

Remember: "Alessa" appears at the exact same time and in the exact same place as when and where God (the God separated from Incubator, no less) disappears.

Also, "Alessa" visibly fades and vanishes after handing over the baby. That's a behavior we see in quite a few of Alessa's manifestations, but we never see a real person pull off a trick like that.

[DamienPales]

Why would God have reverted into Alessa upon its death?

You already know my answer to this question. God never reverts back to Alessa in the Good endings of SH1, because God and Alessa have been separated by the Aglaophotis. Whereas in SH3, God is transforming Claudia's body for its own usage. Claudia swallows the God (the digestive tract does not lead to the womb, by the way), and the God uses Claudia's body for its birth, and when God dies, you see Claudia's clothes where it used to be.

In a sense, God works in much the same way as the parasites from SH1 work. They use the host body, unless they are expelled by Agalophotis.

I feel I'm misinterpreting your question, though.

Also, "Alessa" visibly fades and vanishes after handing over the baby. That's a behavior we see in quite a few of Alessa's manifestations, but we never see a real person pull off a trick like that.

Alessa is translucent, but doesn't vanish.

But you didn't answer my question: Why doesn't Incubator give Harry the baby in the Bad endings as well?

[alone in the town]

Claudia swallows the God (the digestive tract does not lead to the womb, by the way), and the God uses Claudia's body for its birth, and when God dies, you see Claudia's clothes where it used to be.

You see Claudia's clothes before the battle . . .

The only real difference between your idea and mine is that mine involves the host being destroyed and killed and yours involves the host somehow surviving and being able to reappear . . . at least in Alessa's case. Because, she does appear where Incubus vanishes, and she wasn't there until Incubus vanished.

Why doesn't Incubator give Harry the baby in the Bad endings as well?

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. Silent Hill 3 invalidates the Bad endings, and my theory relies heavily on information from that game. Without Silent Hill 3, I would not make this argument because I'd have to reason to believe what I now believe--and the Bad endings would still be technically valid. I would also, absent a direct sequel, be perfectly willing to accept your version of events.

[DamienPales]

You see Claudia's clothes before the battle . . .

Yes, so now you have to ask yourself: Where did Claudia's body go?

The only real difference between your idea and mine is that mine involves the host being destroyed and killed and yours involves the host somehow surviving and being able to reappear . . . at least in Alessa's case. Because, she does appear where Incubus vanishes, and she wasn't there until Incubus vanished.

I've already explained this many pages ago. The game just decided not to have her on the screen while Incubus was on screen. However, if you look closely before the battle begins, you are capable of seeing that Incubus is quite a separate being from Incubator.



Arms, legs, wings, even ass. All of them separate from Incubator herself. So this is not just a simple switching of forms.

[alone in the town]

Yes, so now you have to ask yourself: Where did Claudia's body go?

To a place where nothing good ever happens, and (by my reckoning) in pieces. Lots of them. Perhaps she disintegrated. She certainly looked to be on that path.

I still don't think the clothes make any difference to either of our arguments.

I've already explained this many pages ago. The game just decided not to have her on the screen while Incubus was on screen. However, if you look closely before the battle begins, you are capable of seeing that Incubus is quite a separate being from Incubator.



Arms, legs, wings, even ass. All of them separate from Incubator herself. So this is not just a simple switching of forms.

I don't think it makes a difference whether or not they are separate. I believe God reverts into the Incubator just as you seem to. Where we disagree is on whether the Incubator is separate from Alessa.

[DamienPales]

I still don't think the clothes make any difference to either of our arguments.

Well, the clothes on the floor with the absence of Claudia's body seems to me to suggest that God transformed Claudia into the final result that Heather fights. Thus, why her clothing is on the floor. She grew out of it.

I don't think she was disintegrating. Where did you notice pieces of her body falling off?

I don't think it makes a difference whether or not they are separate. I believe God reverts into the Incubator just as you seem to. Where we disagree is on whether the Incubator is separate from Alessa.

You're arguing (or I thought you were) that Incubator and Incubus are both the same being (God). If one of capable of separating itself from the other, as the screenshot above proves, then they are by definition not the same being.

Which is the crux of my belief that Incubator = Alessa while Incubus = God.

Not to mention that Lost Memories does refer to Incubator as Alessa several times, along with flat-out saying (paraphrasing) "Alessa attacks Harry as Incubator."