Baby?

[alone in the town]

Matchbox cars are just like real cars because they both have wheels.

[DamienPales]

I mean, yeah, Matchbox cars are cars. Model/toy cars specifically, but still cars.

If you're going to argue semantics, argue correctly plz

[AuraTwilight]

Cybil also doesn't change form. Argue what you want about God possessing Alessa's body, but said body isn't the one she would've normally had.

[DamienPales]

So what?

Lost Memories describes Incubator as Alessa's form with light shining from it. So, besides the white gown and the light, it looks exactly like Alessa.

The thing is, Lost Memories says that she's named Incubator because she's holding a premature baby. Unless God is holding a premature baby as well, there's really no getting around the fact that Incubator is Alessa, and the premature baby is the God that she's holding and which Aglaophotis expels.

[alone in the town]

It hardly matters whether or not it's Alessa's body being used. It is literally of no consequence. Alessa Gillespie is not in control, or even in evidence beyond physical appearance. If we assume Incubator is Alessa, it is only in the sense that she is a shell being used. Alessa, the person, is nowhere in evidence while Incubator is on stage. I'm even willing to concede that you're right about the nature of its form, so painfully is it unimportant. And, because maybe you'll shut up about it.

The real issue is who's the baby momma. Is it God ensuring the cycle of its own rebirth through a remarkable act of deception, or is it Alessa finding some heretofore unmentioned magical power (which she should no longer even have if the God is dead), creating a perfect clone of herself minus fourteen years of development, and handing it over to Harry as a poorly-conceived consolation prize?

[DamienPales]

It isn't the God who gave Alessa her enormous power. It's the town. Her psychic abilities, coupled with the town's power, made her capable of just about anything her mind could conceive of.

Your question is phrased really poorly, making me think it really isn't even a question you seriously want me to answer. Plus, you've just admitted that you just want me to "shut up," meaning you're more interested in spouting your opinion uncontested by any pesky disagreement, rather than seriously debating the issue, which I've noticed is a major reason why this debate tends to suck.

Though I'm curious why it makes more sense for a manifested creature no different from your average Air Screamer to conjure a living, breathing human child into existence, rather than a psychic girl who has the power to literally alter the fabric of space and time.

[alone in the town]

I want you to drop the portion of the argument which is irrelevant and, I thought, resolved to the extent it can be--as I've brought up previously.

A large reason this debate sucks is because of your compulsive tendency to divert the thread of discussion onto tangential, and often irrelevant, sidestreets. This thread is about the baby. Focus.

[DamienPales]

Well, I said in my last post that I don't think God is what gives Alessa her power. Using the instance of how she created the Otherworld as an example, her power stems from an unprecendented combination of the town's spiritual powers and Alessa's psychic powers.

That combination is what helped her separate her soul (an intangible thing) and guard it in a "clone" of herself (Cheryl, a real human being). Since we know she can do things like that, it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility for Alessa to do it again, regardless of how counter-productive you think her motivations are (a separate debate, and one that can't be resolved unless we entertain the notion that it is Alessa who is giving Heather to Harry).

[AuraTwilight]

Well, I said in my last post that I don't think God is what gives Alessa her power. Using the instance of how she created the Otherworld as an example, her power stems from an unprecendented combination of the town's spiritual powers and Alessa's psychic powers.

What he means is that it seems like the God's birth is giving the Alessa-form boosted divine abilities; Alessa shows no indication of being able to perfectly clone herself, body and soul, in the way you're suggesting. Prior, she can only divide herself; not create wholly.

That combination is what helped her separate her soul (an intangible thing) and guard it in a "clone" of herself (Cheryl, a real human being). Since we know she can do things like that, it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility for Alessa to do it again, regardless of how counter-productive you think her motivations are (a separate debate, and one that can't be resolved unless we entertain the notion that it is Alessa who is giving Heather to Harry).

It's an entirely different action; creating an entirely new soul with your memories and personality copied into it's subconscious is entirely different from just breaking off a piece of your own soul. The latter is what anyone with a metaphorical magic knife could do; the former is an act of ex nihilo, which is a power only a god (hmmm) is supposed to wield.

Though I'm curious why it makes more sense for a manifested creature no different from your average Air Screamer to conjure a living, breathing human child into existence, rather than a psychic girl who has the power to literally alter the fabric of space and time.

Well, for one, we don't know for sure if this is indeed a manifested creature a descended divine spirit. Secondly, this creature, regardless of it's nature, has the ability to end the entire world merely by being born unobstructed. So yea.

[DamienPales]

Alessa is not creating a new soul. She is transferring her entire soul into a new baby, Heather. Heather = Alessa = Cheryl.

She can clone herself physically, because she's done it before with Cheryl. That's a fact. We know she has the power to transfer her soul (or a piece of it) into that clone, as she did so with Cheryl.

We also don't know whether this God can do half the things the Order says it can do, as it's always been killed prematurely. So...that's an argument destined to go nowhere. The Seal of Metatron was supposed to be the checkmate, and ended up being a "piece of junk."

[simeonalo]

Alessa does not "clone herself physically, like what she did with Cheryl".

The only instance where she does that is at the end of SH1 for a reason: God must be born and resurrected constantly (The fans, Valtiel turning the wheel, representing reincarnation and endless birth, it's all in Lost Memories).

Also, it is unknown on what Heather sees behind her in SH3. It could be the new unborn God baby, it could be the player (what a twist), or whatever you think it can be, until the new developers expand on that.

[AuraTwilight]

Alessa is not creating a new soul. She is transferring her entire soul into a new baby, Heather. Heather = Alessa = Cheryl.

So what, the reincarnated Alessa is being handed to Harry by a soulless zombie, now?

We also don't know whether this God can do half the things the Order says it can do, as it's always been killed prematurely. So...that's an argument destined to go nowhere. The Seal of Metatron was supposed to be the checkmate, and ended up being a "piece of junk."

I stand by the idea that the Seal of Metatron was a "piece of junk" because neither Heather nor Claudia believed in it.

We also don't know whether this God can do half the things the Order says it can do, as it's always been killed prematurely. So...that's an argument destined to go nowhere. The Seal of Metatron was supposed to be the checkmate, and ended up being a "piece of junk."

It can bestow immortality and manifest the Otherworld outside of the bounds of Silent Hill; I'd say the claims of it having world-ending powers are pretty valid.

[DamienPales]

But we don't know whether it's the God doing all that, or the power of Silent Hill.

Alessa has had a soulless body before. She doesn't have a soul when she's sitting in bandages on the wheelchair right before the final boss fight. Seeing as how Incubator is about to die, putting her soul in a new child isn't going to matter significantly. Besides, "soul" is one of those concepts that means different things to different people, and I'm not entirely sure what Silent Hill considers to be the defining qualities of a "soul."

[AuraTwilight]

But we don't know whether it's the God doing all that, or the power of Silent Hill.

The power of Silent Hill has the power to manifest itself outside of the power of Silent Hill? Nice tautology.

But seriously, it doesn't really matter. Either the God is a legitimate divinity that gives the town it's power, or it's a construct created by the town that can act as leverage to bring the Otherworld to Heather's location. It's totally irrelevant and a mere dodging of my point.

Alessa has had a soulless body before. She doesn't have a soul when she's sitting in bandages on the wheelchair right before the final boss fight.

Yea, but that body wasn't DOING ANYTHING, as opposed to this glowing bitch who is lifting up a baby, hands it off, and then after Harry takes it, watches him for almost a full minute before passing out.

Besides, "soul" is one of those concepts that means different things to different people, and I'm not entirely sure what Silent Hill considers to be the defining qualities of a "soul."

I'm pretty sure we can take it for granted that "soul" refers to a person's spiritual consciousness and whatnot. I doubt Silent Hill's going to define it as "the act of cutting" or "the bodily life force energy" or whatever the fuck.

[JuriDawn]

I think at this point it's worth noting that even splitting her soul is not an ability that Alessa herself could manage. As Origins reveals, that action is only made possible with the captured power of the flauros demon. Alessa freed it, used Travis to defeat it, then imprisoned the demon again, using it's power to create Cheryl. Alessa doesn't get to arbitrarily make new life; she needed an ancient magical amplifier just to divide her own soul.

[DamienPales]

You don't need a soul to hand a baby to someone. You need arms.

[AuraTwilight]

Good point JuriDawn.

You don't need a soul to hand a baby to someone. You need arms.

You need a soul to make those arms move. And to watch someone run off with full awareness for over a minute. Since a soul is clearly supposed to represent Alessa's consciousness in this scenario, the absence of a soul would make the Woman in White an immobile living corpse.

[DamienPales]

I think you're confusing "soul" with "brain."

Also, a minor observation. When the baby is handed to Harry, the light coming from the Incubator dims out. This could be symbolic of the "soul transfer," though I hate calling it that 'cause it sounds so technical.

[JuriDawn]

I always took the dimming light as a sign that the god was dying—inasmuch as it can die.

And again, Alessa cannot manipulate her own soul at will, Origins established that. The most she can manage is astral projection.

[AuraTwilight]

I think you're confusing "soul" with "brain."

The Silent Hill series treats the "soul" as the consciousness. Guess what? If you're not conscious, you can't move your body around or consciously watch some guy run off.