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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Sep 2011
Notes left: 5
Recently I played Silent Hill 2 again and it made me think that Angela may not have existed in the real world similar to Maria. First I will talk about Laura and Eddie and why I think they are real. I think the biggest indicator that Laura is real is that she received a letter from Mary prior to her death. Laura being unaware of her death decides to search for her. Now with Eddie there are two things that show he is real. The big one being that Laura can see him and interact with him. The other one being that a second pyramid head is formed from James's guilt for killing Eddie.

With Angela things are different. Right off the bat when you head towards town you meet Angela and James asks her if town is ahead. Then it proceeds with this conversation.
Angela: I think you’d better stay away. This uh... this town... there’s
something... “wrong” with it. It’s kind of hard to explain, but...
James: Is it dangerous?
Angela: Maybe... And it’s not just the fog either...It’s....
James: Okay I got it. I’ll be careful.
Angela: I’m not lying.
James: No, I believe you. It’s just...I guess I really don’t care if it’s
dangerous or not. I’m going to town either way.

Here's what bugs me about this conversation. If Angela just arrived at Silent Hill looking for her mother than how could she possibly know there's something wrong with the town?

On top of this James is the only one that ever sees her, Laura, Eddie, and Maria never meet her. There's also the third time you meet her. After you've made you way through the labyrinth you enter a room and find Angela and a monster that is thought to resemble her father molesting her. But why is James seeing Angela's monster? It would seem that Eddie has his own monster/s and thinks that they are making fun of him. James never sees these monsters, all he sees are figures of unidentifiable bodies. So why would James suddenly be able to see Angela's monster? The only piece of evidence showing that Angela could have existed Is a newspaper stating her father was murdered. I find this to be flimsy as the message that Mary sent James never really existed, so its possible that the newspaper is a fabrication as well.

Now for the final conversation between Angela and James.

Angela: Mama! Mama, I was looking for you.
Angela: Now you’re the only one left. Maybe then.... Maybe then I can rest.
Angela: Mama, why are you running away?
Angela: You’re not Mama. It’s you... I, I’m sorry...
James: Angela, no....
Angela: Thank you for saving me... But I wish you hadn’t. Even Mama said it... I deserved what happened...
James: No Angela, that’s wrong!
Angela: No. Don’t pity me. I’m not worth it....
Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?
Angela: That’s what I thought. James. Give me back that knife.
James: No... I, I won’t.
Angela: Saving it for yourself?
James: Me? No... I’d never kill myself....
It’s hot as hell in here.

Angela: You see it too? For me, it’s always like this.

The lines in bold I will talk about in my theory. I believe that Angela was created from James's mind as a symbol of self punishment or wanting to be judged. James is probably in a toss of emotions wondering if his killing of Mary is justifiable. Since the letter from Mary was revealed as fake I believe James came to silent hill for the subconscious need to be judged for what he did.

Angela was sexually abused by her father and is the ideal example of what a just murder could be as society severely looks down upon sexually abusing children. Even though her father is gone Angela still feels the pain he caused and even still feels guilty for murdering him as in the first bold line above her mother said she deserved it so she assumes complete guilt. She strongly expresses the notion of suicide, the end all solution. The line "Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?" is resemblant of what James thought Mary wanted.
James: No, I believe you. It’s just...I guess I really don’t care if it’s dangerous or not. I’m going to town either way.
James expresses that he already knows that danger lies ahead in the town so it would make sense that Angela would know too. The reason why James could see Angela's monster is because he created the situation in his mind. If you also notice Maria and Angela can see James's monsters but Laura and Eddie cannot.The last bold lines outline the idea of suicide for James and can mark the path to the "In Water" ending.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Dec 2010
Notes left: 449
One thing you need about these forums is that topics like these have been discussed in detail...over and over again....it wouldn' hurt to just go over the different older threads instead of making new hreads over older topics....

To answer your question...Yes! Angela is real! and so is Eddie and Laura...It's only Maria that is a construct of James' Delusional state of mind!

_________________
Now I Know, The Real Reason Why I Came To This Town....I Wonder....What Was I Afraid Of? Without You..I've Got Nothing...Now, We Can Be Together Again.....Mary.....


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11271
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Here's what bugs me about this conversation. If Angela just arrived at Silent Hill looking for her mother than how could she possibly know there's something wrong with the town?


She didn't just arrive; she's been there for a few hours, and is apparently already in her Abyss.

Quote:
On top of this James is the only one that ever sees her, Laura, Eddie, and Maria never meet her.


And? Laura and Eddie came to town together, otherwise they wouldn't see each other either.

Quote:
There's also the third time you meet her. After you've made you way through the labyrinth you enter a room and find Angela and a monster that is thought to resemble her father molesting her. But why is James seeing Angela's monster?


Because the symbolism of the beast can apply to both of them, and he has to see SOMETHING assaulting her, since he's in the room. By the way, Angela seems to think the monster is her father, so it seems she and James might be seeing different imagery.

Quote:
It would seem that Eddie has his own monster/s and thinks that they are making fun of him. James never sees these monsters, all he sees are figures of unidentifiable bodies. So why would James suddenly be able to see Angela's monster?


Technically James sees Eddie's monsters; he just killed them already. Angela doesn't really have the chance to be that quick.

Quote:
The only piece of evidence showing that Angela could have existed Is a newspaper stating her father was murdered. I find this to be flimsy as the message that Mary sent James never really existed, so its possible that the newspaper is a fabrication as well.


But why? Mary's letter has a reason to be fabricated, but making up Angela's backstory doesn't progress James' quest in any way.

Quote:
The lines in bold I will talk about in my theory. I believe that Angela was created from James's mind as a symbol of self punishment or wanting to be judged.


That's what Pyramid Head is for.

Quote:
The reason why James could see Angela's monster is because he created the situation in his mind. If you also notice Maria and Angela can see James's monsters but Laura and Eddie cannot.


When does Angela see James' monsters?

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2010
Notes left: 657
Once again, nothing exists in that town. The whole town doesn't exist. The island is all in Jack's head. ;)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_DW9xJTX-4
I love the Silent Hill Series. The games: Homecoming, Origins, and Shattered Memories, did nothing wrong whatsoever, they were developed well, and did things different. Just because they were not by Team Silent doesn't mean that they're bad games. I believe in this series. I believe that one day, we can have a game that will make all Silent Hill fans Happy. I believe that Silent Hill Downpour can achieve this.
Team Silent may be gone, but their series isn't. Instead... it's here, it's alive.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 456
Quote:
The other one being that a second pyramid head is formed from James's guilt for killing Eddie.

The second Pyramid Head existed long before James killed Eddie, the stone tablet in the gallows in Toluca Prision is evident of that.

Quote:
With Angela things are different. Right off the bat when you head towards town you meet Angela and James asks her if town is ahead. Then it proceeds with this conversation.
Angela: I think you’d better stay away. This uh... this town... there’s
something... “wrong” with it. It’s kind of hard to explain, but...
James: Is it dangerous?
Angela: Maybe... And it’s not just the fog either...It’s....
James: Okay I got it. I’ll be careful.
Angela: I’m not lying.
James: No, I believe you. It’s just...I guess I really don’t care if it’s
dangerous or not. I’m going to town either way.

Here's what bugs me about this conversation. If Angela just arrived at Silent Hill looking for her mother than how could she possibly know there's something wrong with the town?

Like Aura said, she was already in her own abyss, this could mean she walked into town, saw some whack shit and just got outside of town as quickly as possible. She didn't say "HOLY FUCK STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THERE MAN, THERE'S SOME WHACK SHIT GOIN' ON IN THAT CRIB!" which would indicate she wasn't in town all that long. She could have gone into town briefly, saw what was happening, and tried to seek shelter in like... a graveyard or something. She could also have been talking about the fact that it [seemed] abandoned, or the age old "being watched" feeling.

Quote:
On top of this James is the only one that ever sees her, Laura, Eddie, and Maria never meet her. There's also the third time you meet her.

Maria is a manifestation, the whole reason she avoids going in the bowling alley is because if Laura and Eddie saw James talking to thin air James probably would have realized something was up (as if all the monsters and shit didn't already set off a few alarms)-she would cease to exist and the course of James' journey would be skewed to unimaginable degrees.

It was more of a self preservation tactic that the town was using to lead James to his destination. Any earlier and this probably would have been compromised. James was lead to each location for a purpose, and the realization that Maria wasn't real would set him way off course and pretty much defeat the entire purpose of the story.

The same principle applies with Angela, if Angela were to see James talking to thin air...yada yada...

Quote:
After you've made you way through the labyrinth you enter a room and find Angela and a monster that is thought to resemble her father molesting her. But why is James seeing Angela's monster?

It would seem that Eddie has his own monster/s and thinks that they are making fun of him. James never sees these monsters, all he sees are figures of unidentifiable bodies. So why would James suddenly be able to see Angela's monster?

Angela is just seeing her dad, not to be rude here but surely you don't think Angela confused this grotesque creature for her own dad did you? James just sees it as this monster.

Quote:
Now for the final conversation between Angela and James.

Angela: Mama! Mama, I was looking for you.
Angela: Now you’re the only one left. Maybe then.... Maybe then I can rest.
Angela: Mama, why are you running away?
Angela: You’re not Mama. It’s you... I, I’m sorry...
James: Angela, no....
Angela: Thank you for saving me... But I wish you hadn’t. Even Mama said it... I deserved what happened...
James: No Angela, that’s wrong!
Angela: No. Don’t pity me. I’m not worth it....
Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me? Take care of me? Heal all my pain?
Angela: That’s what I thought. James. Give me back that knife.
James: No... I, I won’t.
Angela: Saving it for yourself?
James: Me? No... I’d never kill myself....
It’s hot as hell in here.
Angela: You see it too? For me, it’s always like this.

Angela confusing James for her mother is most likely just the town playing with Angela's head, and she quickly realizes what's happening.
Quote:
The lines in bold I will talk about in my theory. I believe that Angela was created from James's mind as a symbol of self punishment or wanting to be judged. James is probably in a toss of emotions wondering if his killing of Mary is justifiable. Since the letter from Mary was revealed as fake I believe James came to silent hill for the subconscious need to be judged for what he did.

The last sentence is sort of inaccurate since James didn't know about the goings on in the town until he's plunged right into the heart of it. The town called him, and his journey was just the towns douchey way of jogging his memory.

Quote:
James expresses that he already knows that danger lies ahead in the town

That may be, but not to the exact degree, I doubt he could even begin to fathom what he was in for.

Your theory is incorrect, and the whole Angela/Eddie/Laura isn't real debate has been debunked numerous times over. Remember, Silent Hill was sort of a big fucking place, so it's easy for the supporting cast not to run into any other supporting characters, having Angela more isolated was just a plot device to emphasize just how far gone she was to begin with. You don't find out that Eddie is batshit crazy until around the end of the game, but you're given nods that Angela is a little kooky right from the get go.

_________________
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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Sep 2011
Notes left: 5
Thank you guys for the feedback. I have a few questions.

AuraTwilight wrote:
She didn't just arrive; she's been there for a few hours, and is apparently already in her Abyss.


How do you know how long Angela's been there?

AuraTwilight wrote:
And? Laura and Eddie came to town together, otherwise they wouldn't see each other either.


Where is it mentioned they came to town together? Is this assumed because they were both in different areas of the apartments?

Trauma_ wrote:
The second Pyramid Head existed long before James killed Eddie, the stone tablet in the gallows in Toluca Prision is evident of that.


How is this so? I always thought that the three tablets represented James, Maria, and Eddie. It would make more sense that the second pyramid head came from the guilt of killing Eddie seeing as how you see the second pyramid head in the labyrinth right afterwards.

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There was a SIGNATURE here. It's gone now.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19348
Last seen at: #lfk
>Where is it mentioned they came to town together?<
"Laura<--->Eddie: Meet on the way to Silent Hill"

"Laura gives Eddie a kick while he sits on the street. This scene indicates that the two of them met by chance on the way to Silent Hill." (Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle)

>How is this so?<
A tablet on the gallows depicts two r.p.ts. No one's talking about the Oppressor, Seductress, and Gluttonous Pig tablets.

_________________
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 456
The Draco wrote:
Thank you guys for the feedback. I have a few questions.

AuraTwilight wrote:
She didn't just arrive; she's been there for a few hours, and is apparently already in her Abyss.


How do you know how long Angela's been there?

AuraTwilight wrote:
And? Laura and Eddie came to town together, otherwise they wouldn't see each other either.


Where is it mentioned they came to town together? Is this assumed because they were both in different areas of the apartments?

Trauma_ wrote:
The second Pyramid Head existed long before James killed Eddie, the stone tablet in the gallows in Toluca Prision is evident of that.


How is this so? I always thought that the three tablets represented James, Maria, and Eddie. It would make more sense that the second pyramid head came from the guilt of killing Eddie seeing as how you see the second pyramid head in the labyrinth right afterwards.

Image
Look closer, there's 2 pyramid heads. There always has been, it's been discussed at length before.

The Draco wrote:
Thank you guys for the feedback. I have a few questions.

AuraTwilight wrote:
She didn't just arrive; she's been there for a few hours, and is apparently already in her Abyss.


How do you know how long Angela's been there?

Because by the way she acts she's been there long enough to figure out something is very wrong, but not long enough to say to James "Yo dawg, get da fux outta here bro there all crazies up in dis crib yo! This place is totes fucked! RUUUUNNNN" In a frenzied panic as soon as James arrives.

_________________
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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)

Missing since: 27 Sep 2011
Notes left: 4
James is being punished and being forced to remember what he did to mary Angela is also being punished for what she did there stories just happen to intertwine and they affect eachother if james haden't got that knife angela probably would have killed herself a lot earlier in the game. And the knife and her story can affect what story you get. So i believe she was real and you really didn't have a lot to do with her in the game you just ran into her occasionally and she had her own problems and none of it had to do with maria mary or James. She had her own story going on.

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Evil is something you recognize immediately you see it: it works through charm.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11271
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
How do you know how long Angela's been there?


Because she's familiar with the place already. She ran around from home over 24 hours ago, and when you find the graves James has to jump into, Angela's is already filled up.

Now, note that Angela ACTUALLY HAS A GRAVE, like James and Eddie, and unlike Maria.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Moderator & Cult Member
Moderator & Cult Member
 Post subject: Re: Angela may not exist, self punishment theory(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Jul 2010
Notes left: 3270
Last seen at: Kentucky
We already have threads that cover this stuff found in the following places:
http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopi ... =3&t=23410
http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopi ... =3&t=20610
http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1166
http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4882

Locking.

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Music created by the fans, for the fans. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Vol. 1 | Vol. 2 | Vol. 3


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