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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Jun 2011
Notes left: 24
Last seen at: Lakeview Hotel Employee Lounge
Basically, I'm about to delve into miniscule plot holes that you might see if you squint. I'm sure we're all well acquainted with James' iconic encounter with Laura perched on the wall. Though something that's always had me scratching my head is when she remarks, "Huh? Are you blind or something?" when he asks her what she's doing in Silent Hill. It seems to me that Laura is pointing out that her presence in Silent Hill should be obvious to him--but why would she imply this if James only really gets acquainted with her in Silent Hill? James doesn't know why Laura is there until she tells him. My only guess is that when he visited Mary in the hospital, she may have been present, and therefore expected to him to remember her. Him not knowing who she is beforehand could only be attributed to a faulty memory on his part--maybe through his self-induced amnesia, he forgot about Laura. This only really makes sense when you think about the fact that Laura, like Maria, acts as a trigger for James' buried memories ("It was last year"; "I'm turning 8 next week", ect.). So to counteract this, he forgets about her,
[Reveal] Spoiler:
just as he forgets about killing his wife.


The fact that Laura didn't want James to know her name ("that big fat blabbermouth") yet not much earlier asks him if he's "blind" only furthers my confusion. I guess we could attribute this to a child's volatility--maybe she reasoned "Fine, if you want to act like you don't know me, I won't tell you anything at all" kind of thing.

But here's another thing--in the Born From A Wish scenario, Maria enters a room with a teddy bear and comments that Laura would love it, yet this most likely happens before James even meets Laura. So, assuming that everything Maria knows is channeled from James' knowledge and memories, how would she know this? Unless you adhere to the idea that Maria might actually be some sort of reincarnation of Mary and not truly a manifestation, brought to fruition though the Otherworld.

Or maybe I need to turn my brain off. XD

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Moderator & Cult Member
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 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11003
It's generally understood that Maria draws some of her character from Mary's memories and experience, and that she is not derived 100% from James.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 28 Aug 2011
Notes left: 42
Considering that James isn't directly involved throughout the events in Born from a Wish, isn't it implied that Maria doesn't exist solely in his presence?

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Moderator & Cult Member
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 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11003
He is still in town, though. If Born From a Wish begins at precisely the same time James begins his Super Happy Wife Death Mystery Adventure, then she is only existing concurrent with his presence in town.

It could be termed a resurrection in a very loose sense, in that Maria does have some memories of Mary's and they have no other logical origin, but it would be incorrect to take it any further than a resurrection of some of Mary's essence. She is definitely not Mary's direct reincarnation.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11287
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Though something that's always had me scratching my head is when she remarks, "Huh? Are you blind or something?" when he asks her what she's doing in Silent Hill. It seems to me that Laura is pointing out that her presence in Silent Hill should be obvious to him--but why would she imply this if James only really gets acquainted with her in Silent Hill?


He also explains the town is dangerous when it isn't for her, and she knows about James even if he forgot about her. They both visited Mary, so they probably crossed paths at some point. James seems like the type who'd ignore and forget about some dumb eight year old.

Quote:
But here's another thing--in the Born From A Wish scenario, Maria enters a room with a teddy bear and comments that Laura would love it, yet this most likely happens before James even meets Laura. So, assuming that everything Maria knows is channeled from James' knowledge and memories, how would she know this? Unless you adhere to the idea that Maria might actually be some sort of reincarnation of Mary and not truly a manifestation, brought to fruition though the Otherworld.


Maria was created by both James and Mary. Her sexualized, flirty nature is implied to be Mary's desire to be what she thinks James wants (since James seems put off by her differences and doesn't seem to enjoy the way Maria differs from Mary).

Quote:
She is definitely not Mary's direct reincarnation.


While I agree utterly, I do want to point out that both Alessa and Cheryl, and Mary and Maria, have been officially described as "bodily halfs" of each other.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2011
Notes left: 262
AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
Though something that's always had me scratching my head is when she remarks, "Huh? Are you blind or something?" when he asks her what she's doing in Silent Hill. It seems to me that Laura is pointing out that her presence in Silent Hill should be obvious to him--but why would she imply this if James only really gets acquainted with her in Silent Hill?


He also explains the town is dangerous when it isn't for her, and she knows about James even if he forgot about her. They both visited Mary, so they probably crossed paths at some point. James seems like the type who'd ignore and forget about some dumb eight year old.

Quote:
But here's another thing--in the Born From A Wish scenario, Maria enters a room with a teddy bear and comments that Laura would love it, yet this most likely happens before James even meets Laura. So, assuming that everything Maria knows is channeled from James' knowledge and memories, how would she know this? Unless you adhere to the idea that Maria might actually be some sort of reincarnation of Mary and not truly a manifestation, brought to fruition though the Otherworld.


Maria was created by both James and Mary. Her sexualized, flirty nature is implied to be Mary's desire to be what she thinks James wants (since James seems put off by her differences and doesn't seem to enjoy the way Maria differs from Mary).

Quote:
She is definitely not Mary's direct reincarnation.


While I agree utterly, I do want to point out that both Alessa and Cheryl, and Mary and Maria, have been officially described as "bodily halfs" of each other.


This is cool, I did not make the connection about James' reaction to Maria's Maria-ness. I always thought it was just more denial on his part, unconsciously preventing his lust from coming to the surface. The official explanation is neater and adds another element to the plot. It's interesting to think of the town as drawing upon a "palette" of emotions from various sources (not just the protagonist) as the raw materials for what gets manifested physically.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria

Missing since: 27 Sep 2011
Notes left: 4
I always thought Laura was in the town when it was alive and while she was there she met Mary and Mary told her of James. Then after whatever happened happened and James came to town and started his story he happened to run into Laura. There conversation when Laura was on the wall suggests that Laura doesnt see anything odd. To her Silent Hill is an abandoned town and nothing more. Shes a bystander who knew Mary and frustrates James by not telling him what he wants to know and always running away. Thats what sets him off.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11287
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I always thought Laura was in the town when it was alive and while she was there she met Mary and Mary told her of James.


Laura has never been to Silent Hill before. All she knows about it is what Mary told her with her stories and pictures. That's why she had to hitch-hike in the first place.

Quote:
There conversation when Laura was on the wall suggests that Laura doesnt see anything odd. To her Silent Hill is an abandoned town and nothing more.


Silent Hill isn't abandoned,and we know a fact that Laura is in the Otherworld (even if it's perfectly safe and monster free for her) because she can explore the hotel which burned down a year ago.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2301
Below wrote:
Considering that James isn't directly involved throughout the events in Born from a Wish, isn't it implied that Maria doesn't exist solely in his presence?




Ernest Baldwin and Maria only exist in the Otherworld, and can therefore interact and communicate with each other. When James enters said Otherworld, he too interacts with both of the manifestations.

Maria only exists solely in James' presence when he is in the Otherworld.
Maria can't interact with anyone else, like Laura for example, because Maria is James' creation, and therefore only he can see her.

About Ernest though, I don't know if others can see/hear him. ( i am talking about Laura, Angela and Eddie)

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11287
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, probably not, since he was a ghost that had passed on afterwards, and Maria only seems to have seem him because he was an example of his fondest desire come true (in a sense).

James is already in the Otherworld when Born From A Wish happens, so she can definitely exist independently of his presence.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2301
Right, I said that Maria can exist independently of James' presence. She is able to communicate with Baldwin as well. ( I note this in the first sentence).

We don't know exactly how the Otherworld works in its entirety, all we know is that Maria ( a manifestation) exists in the presence of Baldwin ( a ghost).
It's therefore safe to assume that ghosts and manifestations of one's mind may exist in the same realm of the Other World. ( at least in Silent Hill 2)

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11287
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, maybe, but I don't think other ghosts would be able to. I don't think Ernest's living or dead status had a damn thing to do with it so much as he was desperate to see that the dead could live again.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 02 May 2010
Notes left: 877
Last seen at: The Masonic Temple
Well... he was kinda right. I mean, Mary was dead... but she was standing right there. Kind of.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2301
The fact that Laura didn't want James to know her name ("that big fat blabbermouth") yet not much earlier asks him if he's "blind" only furthers my confusion.
^
Laura doesn't like James too much because Mary told her about him ( in the letter Mary writes to Laura, she tells her that while James can be burly, he is really a sweet person.)

But here's another thing--in the Born From A Wish scenario, Maria enters a room with a teddy bear and comments that Laura would love it, yet this most likely happens before James even meets Laura. So, assuming that everything Maria knows is channeled from James' knowledge and memories, how would she know this?
^

My theory is that as soon as James enters Silent Hill, Maria, Mary's memories and knowledge, are manifested.

I believe it all occurs when we see James gazing into that mirror, while Null Moon drones on in the background

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 02 May 2010
Notes left: 877
Last seen at: The Masonic Temple
I always thought that a big part of the reason for Maria's existence was a big revenge plot by Mary. After all, Maria has no real purpose than to torture James; so, let's say Mary uses the power of the town, mixed with James' regrets and fears, add a little spite into the mix, a little sex appeal, and boom, the perfect revenge.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :)

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1576
WelcomeToNowhere wrote:
I always thought that a big part of the reason for Maria's existence was a big revenge plot by Mary. After all, Maria has no real purpose than to torture James; so, let's say Mary uses the power of the town, mixed with James' regrets and fears, add a little spite into the mix, a little sex appeal, and boom, the perfect revenge.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :)

Maria was, like the name of her scenario suggests, "born from a wish". She was what James wanted Mary to be like (healthy and sexy). There's also the possibility she was affected by Mary too. She seems to have shown some of Mary's memories at one stage (Laura and teddy bears). I think Maria was more a combination of what James and Mary wanted, with a hint of James' desire for punishment thrown in. Besides, Mary forgives James in most of the endings. Why would she want revenge if she forgave him?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11287
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Maria has memories of Mary that James never knew about, so she probably contributed. However, I would argue that Mary is the one responsible for sexing up Maria, since James is really put off by her appearance and not at all comfortable by her sexual advances.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Moderator & Cult Member
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 Post subject: Re: Plot Holes Involving Laura and Maria
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11003
I think Maria's sexed-up appearance, as well as the slutty nurses and the strange/erotic shapes and motions of other monsters, are probably James, though not, as people like to think, because James is engaged in a fraught and losing battle to repress his sex drive.

I recently posted about James and his alleged 'sex drive' elsewhere so I'll save myself the typing and just quote:

Quote:
I don't even really think there's much in the way of 'repressed sex' going on for James. I'm sure he probably misses it, he seems like a healthy guy and all, but every single time sex is presented to him bluntly in the form of Maria, it just makes him confused and angry. He never comes across as "hey, this is a welcome change in my life".

Violence is a theme in the game as much as sex, but James is not a violent man. He is a man who committed a single act of violence when an extreme situation pushed him over the edge. Yet, his otherworld is stalked by a walking mascot of extreme violence and assault. Why? Simple answer, to me: his desire to solve problems with force (which everybody has) is being amplified to almost cartoonish extremes because his single, potentially justifiable, act of violence has caused him a profound amount of guilt, and no doubt it has been overfed by all the anger, confusion, and hurt this experience has inflicted upon him. Pyramid Head is the result.

In that same vein, sex is introduced in extremely blatant fashion, from the sensual motions and slender figures of the monsters to the obvious sluttiness of the nurses. This doesn't mean that James has spent three years in a frenzied battle with his own relentless hard-on. It means that the illness, and death, of Mary has robbed him of all that is good in marriage--not just sex but the romance, intimacy, and even the very love itself. James may ultimately kill Mary as an act of mercy, but no doubt he has resented not being able to enjoy, for a very long time, all the pleasure and joy of being a young husband. Just as his impotent anger over the situation helped manifest a being of slaughterhouse-level ultra-violence, James' impotence in matters of love, sex and romance manifest in extreme and base ways: slutty nurses, nude, slender mannequins and Lying Figures, and a version of his wife who is forward and promiscuous... not necessarily because this is what he really wanted Mary to be, but to make up for all the years in which she could offer him absolutely nothing.

People make the sexual angle out to be a huge aspect, but really, it's just one thread in the cloth.

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