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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2012
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I know Dahlia did some kind of weird ritual but why would she set Alessa on fire? If she wanted her to live and birth God, why would she set her on fire? If that's part of the ritual is the person who's burned supposed to survive it?

Sorry for asking a stupid question but i find the story really interesting and it would be great if somebody could explain it to me.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Yea, the person is meant to survive it. The idea is to feed God and nurture it with it's mother's unbelievable pain, anguish, and suffering, so that God is born with compassion and will want to set us free from it.

In the past, many girls have been used for the ritual, and only Alessa worked due to her special powers.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2012
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Yea, the person is meant to survive it. The idea is to feed God and nurture it with it's mother's unbelievable pain, anguish, and suffering, so that God is born with compassion and will want to set us free from it.

In the past, many girls have been used for the ritual, and only Alessa worked due to her special powers.


I see. I sort of understood before but the whole burning thing confused me.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I imagining the burning itself doesn't matter; but if you can think of something that hurts more for longer, you're a wiser person than me. :D The point is the pain.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
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I guess the reason why burning isn't used in SH3 is because Heather already has the god within her to begin with. So it seems evident the main method of nurture is just simply pain by whatever means necessary and Claudia herself notes this three different times throughout the course of the game.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2012
Notes left: 30
Last seen at: Daisy Villa Apartments
AuraTwilight wrote:
I imagining the burning itself doesn't matter; but if you can think of something that hurts more for longer, you're a wiser person than me. :D The point is the pain.


Wiser? I don't know about that. Haha. :D I ask way too many questions but SH is such an interesting story.

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Hope House Careworker
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
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Sacrificial burning has been a common representation of purification.

Also, the burning ceremony itself would be required to summon the conjurer of God's seed, the Incubus.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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^ I'v never heard of the burning actually being required for the ritual. It has always been mentioned that God needed to be born of suffering, which is emphasized by the fact that they kept her in pain and made her suffer for seven years straight(unless that was only to summon Cheryl). Either way, it's never mentioned that fire was ever needed from what I remember.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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Silent Fantasy wrote:
I'v never heard of the burning actually being required for the ritual.
It could be argued that there were other potential methods, but the important fact is that the burning was required as a kind of ignition phase to create God inside the girl.

However, it is implied that the burning sacrifice might be connected to the deity, worshiped as a Sun God. Plus, the burning was designed only for the clergy as a kind of sublime cermony. And Alessa was considered as a part of the clergy for being Dahlia's daughter, of course, and for having powers.

Silent Fantasy wrote:
It has always been mentioned that God needed to be born of suffering, which is emphasized by the fact that they kept her in pain and made her suffer for seven years straight(unless that was only to summon Cheryl).
Dahlia tortured Alessa for seven years to make her suffer, summon Cheryl and feed God with hatred (as Alessa separated a part of her soul in order to weaken the thing inside her).

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jan 2008
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Wasn't it specifically called the "Immolation Ritual" at one point? Immolation meaning, of course, "to sacrifice" or "destroy by fire".

I'm having trouble recalling precisely where that was mentioned, though, so feel free to ignore if this is incorrect.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
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mikefile wrote:
Silent Fantasy wrote:
I'v never heard of the burning actually being required for the ritual.
It could be argued that there were other potential methods, but the important fact is that the burning was required as a kind of ignition phase to create God inside the girl.

However, it is implied that the burning sacrifice might be connected to the deity, worshiped as a Sun God. Plus, the burning was designed only for the clergy as a kind of sublime cermony. And Alessa was considered as a part of the clergy for being Dahlia's daughter, of course, and for having powers.

Silent Fantasy wrote:
It has always been mentioned that God needed to be born of suffering, which is emphasized by the fact that they kept her in pain and made her suffer for seven years straight(unless that was only to summon Cheryl).
Dahlia tortured Alessa for seven years to make her suffer, summon Cheryl and feed God with hatred (as Alessa separated a part of her soul in order to weaken the thing inside her).


I don't believe Alessa was seen as part of the clergy or considered a saint until after Vincent brings the cults religion back. And the religion's followers are under the belief that pain and suffering is what births peace and salvation. They have since it's founding and it's clearly stated they believe that in SH3 by Claudia.
So since it's never stated the fire was needed, it just comes off as the best way to put Alessa through as much pain and suffering as possible. I know Dahlia wasn't interested in salvation and just wanted power, but this technique could possibly recreate God more powerfully


xoxsnoof wrote:
Wasn't it specifically called the "Immolation Ritual" at one point? Immolation meaning, of course, "to sacrifice" or "destroy by fire".

I'm having trouble recalling precisely where that was mentioned, though, so feel free to ignore if this is incorrect.


It's called "The Ritual of Resurrection".

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Silent Fantasy wrote:
I don't believe Alessa was seen as part of the clergy or considered a saint until after Vincent brings the cults religion back.
"Dahlia originally thought that Alessa would follow in her own footsteps as a spiritualistic medium for the cult [...]" -Silent Hill Official Guidebook

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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"A rapid expansion took place over the course of a few years that was the result of Vincent's achievements. It can be surmised that Alessa, who was born around 30 years ago, was established as a saint in the cult and thus the structure of the organization was only recently put in order" - Lost Memories

Sounds more like it wasn't till after the cults reestablishment that Alessa was considered a saint.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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I'm not talking about the later idolization of Alessa as a saint.

I'm pointing out that Alessa, since always, had simply been considered as a part of the Order because of Dahlia being her mother and because of Dahlia wanting for her daughter to become a future priestess. That puts Alessa automatically in a very high position within the community to be exhibited to the sublime ritual, regardless the ceremony being an instinctive act that Dahlia carried out in order to create God in the most painful possible way.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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There have been a few other sacrifices burned during this same ritual though, around seven or so if I remember correctly, and I doubt they all had the same rank as Alessa.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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Up to that point it doesn't really matter. Whether Dahlia actually had in mind the techincalities when she came up with the idea, these are not of primal relevancy. As I previously stated the important thing is to offer enough suffering so the God could be created. And if, by the way, the technicality fits it's not like it hurts her intentions.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
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But if it has been done and to be done again, then where is how they viewed Alessa or her being apart of the cult relevant? The burning was an easy and effective way to cause suffering for Gods recreation and the sacrifices impregnation. Though the fire has never been said to be absolutely necessary for The Ritual of Resurrection, which is what the question was to begin with.
I honestly don't see how what your saying is relevant or fits atall, but I could just be misunderstanding your arguments.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
Silent Fantasy wrote:
There have been a few other sacrifices burned during this same ritual though, around seven or so if I remember correctly, and I doubt they all had the same rank as Alessa.

Was that information from Origins or from one of the earlier games?
Even between SH1 and 3 many reinterpretations took place, some things were even only brought up through 3 because they didn't hold any importance to the larger plot at the time of SH1.
The religions behind Dahlia during SH1 seemed more like a secret society that ran the town, consisting of maybe some high-ranking officials and people who promised themselves a genuine boost in power due to the towns power, like Kaufmann for example. The part that the Order only grew into the shape we see in SH3 after the events of 1 are made pretty clear through in-game evidence already. Quotes given here additionally strengthen that aspect.

Still, aspects like the 4S, Wish House, the fact that Claudia and others were brought up in the faith we learn about in SH3 hint at much more going-ons than all that was introduced during SH1.
So the question is how neatly can we tie the plot points between SH1 and 3? Especially with Origins around, which makes a lot of the events in SH1 less ambigious, we are left with some rather mixed signals. If Dahlias goal was actually always fixated on harnessing Alessas powers and birthing God through her was just a sudden idea, then there would be no reason to try this process through other girls.


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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chounokoe wrote:
Silent Fantasy wrote:
There have been a few other sacrifices burned during this same ritual though, around seven or so if I remember correctly, and I doubt they all had the same rank as Alessa.

Was that information from Origins or from one of the earlier games?

Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition
Quote:
Q: What were Dahlia's intentions?

A: To realize the long-cherished wish of the religious cult to which she belongs.
. . .
Simply put, bringing about the advent of the malevolent god and unleashing limitless destruction-- this is the long-cherished wish of the religious organization to which Dahlia belongs, because "all sins will be washed away," "everyone will be freed from all suffering," and they will "take back the true paradise." The technique to impregnate the womb of a human mother with the malevolent god had been carried out many times in order to achieve that end, but it had always failed. Among the mysterious disappearances that took place in town, there are cases in which young girls were abducted by the cult as prospective surrogate mothers (although most of them were simply young people who grew tired of the countryside and left for the city).

Regarding Alessa's (and the previous sacrifices') status/worthiness for immolation, I take it as a given that simply being chosen to be a vessel for the cult's god would elevate one to the highest status, thus making immolation perfectly appropriate in the minds of the Order members.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Silent Fantasy wrote:
But if it has been done and to be done again, then where is how they viewed Alessa or her being apart of the cult relevant? The burning was an easy and effective way to cause suffering for Gods recreation and the sacrifices impregnation. Though the fire has never been said to be absolutely necessary for The Ritual of Resurrection, which is what the question was to begin with.
I honestly don't see how what your saying is relevant or fits atall, but I could just be misunderstanding your arguments.


It's because of Alessa's high position and powers that Dahlia thought the ritual would WORK, which is why she did it without the rest of the Order's permission. She's a heretic, up until Claudia remade the Order and idolized Alessa and such.

Quote:
Was that information from Origins or from one of the earlier games?
Even between SH1 and 3 many reinterpretations took place, some things were even only brought up through 3 because they didn't hold any importance to the larger plot at the time of SH1.


It's from guidebooks.

Quote:
If Dahlias goal was actually always fixated on harnessing Alessas powers and birthing God through her was just a sudden idea, then there would be no reason to try this process through other girls.


Yes, there is. The ritual idea has always existed, but Dahlia's original intentions for Alessa was for her to grow up to be a great spiritual leader in the Order like herself. It was only when she realized how powerful she was that she decided she should be burned, and did it without anyone's consent. "There's no reason to wait; I can do it all by myself."

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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