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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
JuriDawn wrote:

Thank you. I actually thought about buying it when I last stumbled upon, but I didn't know something of that importance was in there. Naturally I didn't search for a translation either.

But this does shed some "new" light on the events, doesn't it? And it again highlights how many things were already being reinterpreted by the time of SH3.

Quote:
I take it as a given that simply being chosen to be a vessel for the cult's god would elevate one to the highest status, thus making immolation perfectly appropriate in the minds of the Order members.

Actually it is made pretty clear at one point that the use of fire was an integral part of the ritual in which the being that was revered by the cult would enter the womb of the chosen woman:
"And so seven years ago, Dahlia performed the technique to bring about the descent of the cult's god using Alessa in the cellar of her own house. [...]The ritual process involved a great deal of fire, which consequently escalated into a conflagration."
So Alessa was only impregnated with "God", the evil deity, when the ritual took place and otherwise she would have succeeded her mother as a priestess of the cult.
But we have to question how much this is still canon as Origins portrays quite different rituals and sequences of events. Like how the Flauros has a completely different function from what was originally described in 1999 as such:
"It is said that powerful magic abilities lie dormant within the Flauros, which was excavated from ancient ruins. Dahlia prepared the Flauros in secret as a trump card that was hers alone. It is unclear whether she saw the current situation on the horizon..."
While in Origins it seems to be a magical item brought forth by Alessa to trap the evil deity inside and use it's remaining magic to create a body for a part of her soul. The soul splitting is also described as different, being simply:
"The method Dahlia used to bring about the descent of the cult's god had nearly succeeded with Alessa as the surrogate mother, but Alessa quickly let part of her soul escape and the technique was not completely successful."

It is also interesting how back then Dahlias and by extension the cults goal was described already as:
"Simply put, bringing about the advent of the malevolent god and unleashing limitless destruction-- this is the long-cherished wish of the religious organization to which Dahlia belongs, because "all sins will be washed
away," "everyone will be freed from all suffering," and they will "take back the true paradise."
"
So the basic intention why to birth God already existed in the doctrine back then, only it was slightly different in execution and implication from what the Order believes at the time Claudia is a priestess.

Interesting though that originally it was planned that Alessa actually didn't have any special powers beyond maybe the ability of foresight and some gifts that could be considered preternatural and it was only by combining with Cheryl and having the full power of the growing deity within her that she could actually use supernatural powers to her advantage.
SH3 at least made it appear like Heather believed Alessa had possessed all those powers before, though killing someone by wishing it to happen could also be just constructed incidents and Dahlia using Alessas supposed powers as justification. Well by Origins we basically have to accept that Alessa could always do those things.

This is turning out to be an even harder continuity problem than trying to get a steady continuity into a DC comic.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Interesting though that originally it was planned that Alessa actually didn't have any special powers beyond maybe the ability of foresight and some gifts that could be considered preternatural and it was only by combining with Cheryl and having the full power of the growing deity within her that she could actually use supernatural powers to her advantage.


Where are you getting this from? Alessa was killing people with her mind before being burned. It was the main reason Dahlia was raising her to be a priestess.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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Silent Fantasy wrote:
But if it has been done and to be done again, then where is how they viewed Alessa or her being apart of the cult relevant? The burning was an easy and effective way to cause suffering for Gods recreation and the sacrifices impregnation.
As people just depicted to you before, the two points (birth from suffering and community rank) do not exlclude themselves. Elevated position (not sanctity, yet) was the reason why Alessa ended up in that burning house, while the burning ritual, by itself is what permits the God to be born. To sup up, fire:
1. is a sublime form of sacrifice.
2. is a form of sacrifice that permits God to be created through pain and suffering.

chounokoe wrote:
So Alessa was only impregnated with "God", the evil deity, when the ritual took place and otherwise she would have succeeded her mother as a priestess of the cult.
Not necessarily. Throughout the games we can observe that Alessa was against her mother's will, regardless her love for Dahlia. Besides, in the scene where Dahlia asks Alessa to lend her some power (at the moment when she yet didn't endure the enlightening, that is, the power lending thing was still part of the future priestess scenario), Alessa is not exactly acting submissive.

In fact, one could argue that among the main reason why Dahlia came up with the impregnation idea, is the reason that, otherwise, Alessa simply wouldn't accept the spiritualistic medium for the cult deal. This way, Dahlia doesn't need her daughter's cooperation.

chounokoe wrote:
While in Origins it seems to be a magical item brought forth by Alessa to trap the evil deity inside and use it's remaining magic to create a body for a part of her soul.

Actually, no. The Flauros was a source of ancient power that Dahlia used to contain Alessa's power. The pieces were hidden. Alessa then uses Travis to locate the pieces, reassemble them, release the demon, recapture it and then she used its power to create Cheryl.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
Where are you getting this from? Alessa was killing people with her mind before being burned. It was the main reason Dahlia was raising her to be a priestess.

No, actually the original guidebook said something else.
Quote:
By merging with Cheryl, Alessa (at her actual age) was reborn from her severe burns, broke the spell that Dahlia and the cult's priests had used to bind her, and took action. After uniting, Alessa had acquired psychic powers such as teleportation-powers that she had always possessed. If she had been living under normal circumstances, these powers would almost never manifest themselves. Alessa naturally possessed a certain amount of spiritual intuition and at that point in time her "sixth sense" was powerful enough that she was having premonitions, but these were more like hunches than supernatural powers. Her mother Dahlia may have performed magic and the like, but this does not mean she had special powers.
Could it be that having the malevolent deity dwelling within her body and uniting with Cheryl were what led Alessa to acquire supernatural powers?

This is where SH3 already reinterpreted stuff from the original story. As this was never a part of the game itself it could be considered "soft-canon", it was always there but future games are free to change it a little to serve their individual needs.
No I would still reserve the possibility that what Heather thought of Alessas powers was only what Alessa herself knew of her powers, so it is not at all impossible that Dahlia simply used visions of Alessa as an excuse to execute people. But yes, if we only go by what in-game content tells us then yes, Alessa was always at her full powers.

SilentFantasy wrote:
Not necessarily. Throughout the games we can observe that Alessa was against her mother's will, regardless her love for Dahlia.

Yes, of course. I wasn't trying to drive at the idea that Alessa willingly accepted this role, but I'd say she was at least brought up in the cults faith and believed in the content of the original scriptures, not necessarily the way Dahlia used them to orchestrate the cults hidden power over parts of the town.
Like Vincent said in SH3, people can follow the same religion and yet disagree about it. I think she didn't mind the religion in general, but had a rather good intuition about her mother doing "bad things".
OT: Going by the Japanese script of SH3 these disagreements go so far that some people don't even think of the evil deity and God as the same being. Vincents subtitles when he says "Heather, go ahead and kill this crazy bitch. This demon who claims to speak for God." is actually "Now Heather, kill this insane woman. And that demon who borrowed the name of God as well, of course.".

Quote:
Actually, no. The Flauros was a source of ancient power that Dahlia used to contain Alessa's power.

It was? Then why did it end up in Dahlias hands again for SH1? I'm really getting the feeling I should replay Origins.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
By merging with Cheryl, Alessa (at her actual age) was reborn from her severe burns, broke the spell that Dahlia and the cult's priests had used to bind her, and took action. After uniting, Alessa had acquired psychic powers such as teleportation-powers that she had always possessed. If she had been living under normal circumstances, these powers would almost never manifest themselves. Alessa naturally possessed a certain amount of spiritual intuition and at that point in time her "sixth sense" was powerful enough that she was having premonitions, but these were more like hunches than supernatural powers. Her mother Dahlia may have performed magic and the like, but this does not mean she had special powers.


Powers that she had already possessed, mind you. And since she's connected to two people dying of mysterious, unexplained heart attacks, she's probably the cause. The Order doesn't have the means to supernaturally attack people, and it doesn't take clairvoyance to realize that mayor's trying to stop your drug ring.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
AuraTwilight wrote:
Powers that she had already possessed, mind you. And since she's connected to two people dying of mysterious, unexplained heart attacks, she's probably the cause. The Order doesn't have the means to supernaturally attack people, and it doesn't take clairvoyance to realize that mayor's trying to stop your drug ring.

Well Dahlia had at least some talent in the area of magic and there are several other ways to kill a person. If you've got an apparent chief of medicine at your hand, who readily forges autopsy records, it's not all that unlikely that this could have happened here too.
If we look at SH1 alone even you have to admit that the writers said that "this powers did not fully manifest at least until the deity was inside her". She had the powers before but they were "mere hunches" and if it was actually her who killed these people by thinking it then it was probably a subconscious action.

Yes, if we throw SH3 into the mix then the mysterious deaths are caused by her power to wish a person to death, but this is exactly one of the continuity problems. Do we include this additional information or don't we? Of course you can always cherry-pick your own canon, but then you have to let people disagree with you.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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Last seen at: Katz Street
SH3 is canon. You can't take SH1 on it's own because any retcons or reinterpritations are now canon to the overall story. It's pointless to point out what some things may have meant or were originally.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 05 Aug 2012
Notes left: 120
Silent Fantasy wrote:
SH3 is canon. You can't take SH1 on it's own because any retcons or reinterpritations are now canon to the overall story. It's pointless to point out what some things may have meant or were originally.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, because this leads to the problem of how far we can use these background information from prior guides at all. Of course they give a fascinating insight into what the writers had in mind for their story when they wrote it, but what we're doing now if we use this as a background for the whole series is cherry-picking. Some things just don't fit anymore because the canon of future games rewrote that part, so we can only go by what's in the game.

If we use these information then they are for SH1 and the canon of 1999, just as information from SH2 were the canon of 2002 and so on. That's why I'd call it soft-canon...it's nice to know, but it doesn't really serve as a point.
It's just like how Star Wars was changed when the new trilogy came around, there was also a whole lot of stuff that was suddenly not canon anymore.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Some things just don't fit anymore because the canon of future games rewrote that part, so we can only go by what's in the game.<
That's really not that true. Generally when people think this is true, they're just mistaken and have a hard time making sense of what they believe in relation to what is actually correct. It becomes a "plot hole" when trying to fit their square piece into the circle hole of canon.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Well Dahlia had at least some talent in the area of magic and there are several other ways to kill a person. If you've got an apparent chief of medicine at your hand, who readily forges autopsy records, it's not all that unlikely that this could have happened here too.


"I just need a little bit of your power, that's all."

What do you think this is referencing?

Quote:
If we look at SH1 alone even you have to admit that the writers said that "this powers did not fully manifest at least until the deity was inside her". She had the powers before but they were "mere hunches" and if it was actually her who killed these people by thinking it then it was probably a subconscious action.


Giving people telekinetic heart attacks, and creating entire pocket dimensions and splitting your soul in half and teleporting around town are of very, VERY different degrees. Indeed, the paragraph you're talking about is specifically referring to Alessa's teleporting across town in a spirit form.

Quote:
Yes, if we throw SH3 into the mix then the mysterious deaths are caused by her power to wish a person to death, but this is exactly one of the continuity problems. Do we include this additional information or don't we? Of course you can always cherry-pick your own canon, but then you have to let people disagree with you.


The games have to take precedence over anything else, that's just common sense. I don't care what a guidebook says if it contradicts information from a main game. That's not even cherry-picking, since the method is entirely consistent and coherent.

Quote:
That's exactly what I'm getting at, because this leads to the problem of how far we can use these background information from prior guides at all. Of course they give a fascinating insight into what the writers had in mind for their story when they wrote it, but what we're doing now if we use this as a background for the whole series is cherry-picking. Some things just don't fit anymore because the canon of future games rewrote that part, so we can only go by what's in the game.

If we use these information then they are for SH1 and the canon of 1999, just as information from SH2 were the canon of 2002 and so on. That's why I'd call it soft-canon...it's nice to know, but it doesn't really serve as a point.
It's just like how Star Wars was changed when the new trilogy came around, there was also a whole lot of stuff that was suddenly not canon anymore.


It's really quite simple. Games > Non-games, Earlier Games > Newer Games. If things in guide books bring new information that's not contradicted by a game, it's canon.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Quote:
No, actually the original guidebook said something else.
The guidebook largely refers to the later powers Alessa adopted after uniting. It mentions the spiritual intuition she posessed before, but does not explicitly state she did not have any actual powers. The powers the guidebook refers to at a point, are the later supernatural ones that permit her to teleport and split souls. Nevertheless, these are facts extrapolated from the games and merged with semi-play semantics. So the part where we assume if the guidebook is wrong (which I would rather avoid believing) or simply leaves out some points, is a bit clunky. But again, it's not like it makes a big deal, as we know concrete facts from games.
Quote:
It was? Then why did it end up in Dahlias hands again for SH1? I'm really getting the feeling I should replay Origins.
She probably got her hands on it after the soul splitting. Or it probably went to Nowhere for some time until Dahlia realized that the object was the thing she needed, the town fabricated it for her. That part is actually not that relevant, what matters is that she needed it and got it.

Btw. That one little quote you inserted about Alessa's submissiveness is mine.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 16 Jul 2006
Notes left: 531
Let's just say she was exploring the hospital and forgot to use the blood bag and leave it at that.

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I can't believe i earned 10 Silent Hill cash for this.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Not funny, dude.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
That is in pretty poor taste. I don't recall if there's ever been an official policy against it, but please stay away from rape jokes, even by implication.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I did get permabanned for a joke someone THOUGHT was about rape, though. :P

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: How exactly did Alessa get "pregnant"?

Missing since: 16 Jul 2006
Notes left: 531
I understand, getting molested by a shapeless impossible Lovecraftian monster and giving birth to god as a result might hit too close to home for someone.
AuraTwilight wrote:
I did get permabanned for a joke someone THOUGHT was about rape, though. :P
Jesus. :?

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