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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Mary Gellespie and Alessa Sunderland
     
         
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Missing since: 17 Aug 2008
Notes left: 152
Last seen at: Neely's Bar, South Vale Silent Hill
Now I know that the theories as to what Silent Hill 2 meant have been explored almost to the brink of existence. The general belief and a slew of evidence points to the whole thing being a delusion caused by James mass psychosis. [spoiler] Much of the game and its events (Mary's letter disapearing, the rest stop, Mary's body) leads one to believe James killed Mary either 3 years ago or even moments before the initial scene in the bathroom, thus making Silent Hill essentially a product of James' guilt, repression of the truth, and complete mental breakdown, with a little help from this holy place [/spoiler]

BUT, there are also things that connect SH2 to SH1 which could combat the largely accepted theory. The sirens heard in the distance, often at the end of boss battles or when the "otherworld" comes into play. Also the fact that the main locale of SH1 (Paleville) is mentioned in the game (specifically in the elevator gameshow scene). Another connection is the shared locations indicated by the map (the Amusement Park and Nathan Avenue). The connection to Silent Hill's old religous ceremonies (i.e. ph's nifty outfit baring a shocking resemblance to the executioners depicted in paintings in both games), and of course, the Rebirth ending.

Where am I going with this?

The series has always maintained that something is "wrong" with this town. Alessa had special powers, yes, but it was the dark power of the town that allowed her to project her nightmare and exact her revenge on her mother and The Order. in SH2 we know that [spoiler] James killed Mary and that according to their conversation at the final confrontation, she wasn't all too happy [/spoiler] Many of the things around town (Neely's bar) can support this. What I'm thinking, is what if the town itself lent Mary the same kind of power it lent Allessa?

What if James' journey, sprinkled with forboding inuendos such as the James-look-alike bodies around town and in the apartment, the Neely's Writting, and the way that PH constantly hurts Maria, is all part of Mary's revenge? Her justice is aided by the Gods of the town and she does everything to make James feel her pain, he claustraphobia of being confined to hospital beds and being suffocated, envisioned by James being trapped in Silent Hill.

My point is, what if Sh2 is really strongly connected to SH 1 and is just another example of this disturbed and marred town and its dark powers.

What do u guys think?


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 12 Jul 2008
Notes left: 184
Last seen at: Gennep, Limburg, Netherlands
There's certainly some entity exacting revenge on James, whether it's his own subconscious forcing him to aknowledge his guilt or a demon of the town or Mary's ghost of some sort. I do think there's a specific person or demon behind it all, not just some abstract force of the town. But there's no way of telling who's causing all the ghostly stuff in the game.
In some of the endings it shows Mary behind it all, in some endings it's Maria/a demonic force.
Alessa was shown to be special in the games, so I don't think Mary would be capable of manipulating the town like she did.

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"We are such stuff as dreams are made of, and our little life is rounded with a sleep."


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 16 Jul 2006
Notes left: 531
"I was weak. That's why i needed you. Needed someone to punish me for my sins." Implies that James was the source of, well, at least Pyramid Head. Also, Eddie sees a lot of weird shit so it seems everyone brings their own demons with them. Unless the dog Eddie shot was a psychic :o :shock:

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 29 Oct 2006
Notes left: 1910
Last seen at: Danvers Asylum
It would be cool thinking that Mary created everything. Supported would be that Laura doesn't see the monsters (I think there's a long ass thread debating this, I haven't read it, I'm just saying what I think) But not supported by that Eddie see's them. (Again, flame away if you wish, I ain't is not caring)

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Mary doesn't have that much influence, and if she did, she still wouldn't do it because she doesn't want revenge. the only time we get the impression that Mary is angry is in the Maria ending, and that "Mary" is a manifestation, and not her actual ghost.

The main driving entity is James himself. Like the other characters, it's a hell he created. And don't get me started on the ideas of Mary representing Pistis Sophia.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
Mary does have suasion over the otherworld's appearance. Even James hints at it: "Mary, is this your way of taking . . . " The word he stopped at was "revenge."

There's a lot more to it, of course, but I've been saying this since 2001, when the game was released.

So, yes: Mary has as much influence on the otherworld in Silent Hill 2 as James does. Not in the same way Alessa does, but her thoughts and emotions are clearly projected.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
Notes left: 1299
If that's so, that might explain why James got thrashed on so thoroughly, but what about Laura? I know she didn't see any monsters, but why didn't she see Mary right away? I don't see Mary wanting to hide from her, after all.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject:

Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
Notes left: 1323
Last seen at: Minnesota
Oddish wrote:
If that's so, that might explain why James got thrashed on so thoroughly, but what about Laura? I know she didn't see any monsters, but why didn't she see Mary right away? I don't see Mary wanting to hide from her, after all.

Perhaps she wanted James to lead her to where she was. Or simply wanted Laura to find her on her own. Or maybe Laura was just being stupid and didn't see her. Who knows?


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
Notes left: 53
So then, what about Eddie and Angela? Would it just be Mary was responsible for the monsters that are exclusive to James and his ordeal?


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Mary does have suasion over the otherworld's appearance. Even James hints at it: "Mary, is this your way of taking . . . " The word he stopped at was "revenge."

There's a lot more to it, of course, but I've been saying this since 2001, when the game was released.

So, yes: Mary has as much influence on the otherworld in Silent Hill 2 as James does. Not in the same way Alessa does, but her thoughts and emotions are clearly projected.


Despite what James said, I never got a vibe of vengeance. He may have postulated it, but he's an unreliable source of information.

I do admit Mary has influence, but as I said above, not "much". She's much, much more passive.

Quote:
If that's so, that might explain why James got thrashed on so thoroughly, but what about Laura? I know she didn't see any monsters, but why didn't she see Mary right away? I don't see Mary wanting to hide from her, after all.


Perhaps Laura needed to learn what happened to her from James, first. Mary can't say goodbye until Laura knows she's leaving.

Quote:
So then, what about Eddie and Angela? Would it just be Mary was responsible for the monsters that are exclusive to James and his ordeal?


Eddie and Angela have nothing to do with Mary. James and Laura were going to manifest the Otherworld either way, but due to her emotional ties to them both, Mary was apparently able to interact with them.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject:

Missing since: 16 Jul 2006
Notes left: 531
AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
Mary does have suasion over the otherworld's appearance. Even James hints at it: "Mary, is this your way of taking . . . " The word he stopped at was "revenge."

There's a lot more to it, of course, but I've been saying this since 2001, when the game was released.

So, yes: Mary has as much influence on the otherworld in Silent Hill 2 as James does. Not in the same way Alessa does, but her thoughts and emotions are clearly projected.


Despite what James said, I never got a vibe of vengeance. He may have postulated it, but he's an unreliable source of information.

I do admit Mary has influence, but as I said above, not "much". She's much, much more passive.
I have to agree with Aura here. I don't think vengeance has anything to do with it. That's Silent Hill 3.

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I can't believe i earned 10 Silent Hill cash for this.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
Mary's not consciously taking revenge out on James. One can hate the actions of someone while still love the person. Her spirit remains in Silent Hill, and she knows what James did to her--I'd be pissed off, too.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Even if we take away any conscious awareness, I'm still not seeing an intent for vengeance. I mean, at worst, there's Maria, but she seems to be mainly autonomous.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject:

How about the final boss? I can't think of a better way for Mary's rage over James bedmurdering her - concious or not - to manifest itself.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 17 Aug 2008
Notes left: 152
Last seen at: Neely's Bar, South Vale Silent Hill
Thank you for all the great responses everyone! :)


AuraTwilight wrote:
Even if we take away any conscious awareness, I'm still not seeing an intent for vengeance. I mean, at worst, there's Maria, but she seems to be mainly autonomous.


Just to comment on what you said earlier, I think Mary has plenty of incentive to exact revenge on the guy who killed (and emotionally betrayed) her. I think this might lead to the possibility that Maria was something Mary cooked up to torture James (although the Maria sidequest might snuff that out) However, the sidequest could explain the 3 years James talks about.

A few holes in that one, I admit. But, I firmly believe Mary had very good reason to be enraged and hurt by James. The letter in the end could be her final understanding/forgiveness of his actions for real (as opposed to James forgiving himself). And I think that Angela and Eddie could be tools of the town (well Eddie is kind of a tool regardless) but Laura...she's real, no doubt. And Mary spared her the horror. Now is Mary completely 100% behind this? Nah, I dont think so. I think it exemplifies the darkness of the town created by supernatural presecences (i.e. a holy place before settled) and by a history of hatred, death, and tragedy. This is reinforced by the disturbing literature found throughout the game.

Also: did anyone see the new vids on IGN for Homecoming? ...I'm kinda stoked, not gonna lie :)


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
How about the final boss? I can't think of a better way for Mary's rage over James bedmurdering her - concious or not - to manifest itself.


In most endings? Maria tried to convince James to let her exist as his delusion, and when that doesn't work, decides that if she can't live, he'll go down with her.

The "Mary" we see in the Maria ending is also a product of James' delusions, and not actually Mary.

Quote:
Just to comment on what you said earlier, I think Mary has plenty of incentive to exact revenge on the guy who killed (and emotionally betrayed) her. I think this might lead to the possibility that Maria was something Mary cooked up to torture James (although the Maria sidequest might snuff that out) However, the sidequest could explain the 3 years James talks about.


Maria seems to largely be James' creation. All I see Mary chipping in are memories and personality details James can't provide.

Quote:
And I think that Angela and Eddie could be tools of the town (well Eddie is kind of a tool regardless) but Laura...she's real, no doubt.


Everyone is real except Maria. And even if they weren't, they can't be tools of the town since the town isn't an active, self-aware force.

Quote:
And Mary spared her the horror.


I don't think Mary had to do anything, since Laura had nothing to be exposed to anyway. The Silent Hill she sees is one born of her loneliness, not guilt or regret.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 12 Aug 2008
Notes left: 211
or Laura is no real and is SH's creation to push James along to his goal.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
We know that's not true, because Mary knows Laura personally.

And it's not like James needs help being motivated anyway.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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 Post subject:

Alessa is alive in SH1, Mary is dead, so yeah, she should be more passive. But it could be the remains of her spirit still can stir up the horror decor of SH. And maybe it works both ways. Maybe, in the ending scene where she forgives James, he's not totally imagining the reunion and redemption for his own sake, but also reaching through to her, thanks to SH's special powers. Maybe Silent Hill blurrs the gates between life and death and Mary can reach and be reached through from a half-life state. Her body dead, her brain long deteriated but still with some kind of activity that SH can pick up on and amplify, her lingering, dying feelings of rage, love, loss, self-pity having an outcome on James' surroundings, even if he is the active engine of it all. If you are a believer of the Resurrection Ending this should be compelling, since this theory suggest she's never really dead, just in transition. (Even though we never know if it's her soul returning to her body in that ending.)

Quote:
Maria seems to largely be James' creation. All I see Mary chipping in are memories and personality details James can't provide.


Like, for example, when Maria says 'did you forget the videotape we made?' If it was all him, he would instantly know what he/Maria meant by that, and then he would have his breakdown and realisation already in the cell scene. Or would he be able to tease himself like that and with precision judge where to put the lid on the repression-vent? Remembering about the videotape but not what was recorded on it. Tricky.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 28 Jul 2008
Notes left: 241
You guys are all wrong! The dog was behind it all along! lol just playing.

But seriously, in my humble opinion, I don't really think that Mary had much to do with anything. It's my belief that it's the town just messing around with all of them because it's a prick like that. I guess I do see SH as a kind of self-aware entity and the bunch of memos you find in the beginning next to that corpse just reinforce that theory to me.


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