What did Dahlia want?

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

What did Dahlia want with Walter when she first went to see him at the Hope/Wish House?

[The Adversary]

She convinced Lil' Wally that his mother was waiting for him, and that Room 302 was mother. He was told that by reading "The Book" and by performing the Ritual of the 21 Sacraments, he would "awaken" his mother and they could be together again. In actuality, it was just a subterfuge to bring about the birth of God--known by the Sect of the Holy Mother as just that: The Holy Mother.

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

And that was 'plan B' if Alessa didn't work out?

[The Adversary]

Essentially, yes.

[emptimass]

At least the Adversary agrees. Most I have talked to don't think
that the 21 Sacraments have anything to do with the Holy Mother
of SH1 +3. I could not see it any other way. And there "were" a couple
of obvious references to Dahlia in the game. I think the others hated the
game so much that they wanted to deny it any ties to the others.

[The Adversary]

>Most I have talked to don't think that the 21 Sacraments have anything to do with the Holy Mother of SH1 +3.

They're right. The Holy Mother, according to the Sect of the Holy Mother--which Walter Sullivan belonged to--, is God. The Holy Mother, according to the Sect of the Holy Woman--which Dahlia Gillespie belonged to--, is Alessa.

[Anonymous]

Actually, Alessa wasn't recognized as God until Claudia rewrote and re-organized the Order. Claudia leads the New Age version. The time period of the order Dahlia followed apparently believed in the image of Baphomet as God...

Hey Adversary, if Dahlia believed Baphomet was God, it took that form.
Alessa believed God was a lovely angel, it took that form
Claudia believed God was Alessa, she took that form.

Walter recognized Room 302 as his mother. He also recognized his mother as the Holy Mother they worshipped. This means God took the form of Room 302 when conjured by Walter in the "bad ending"

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

Woo! I never thought of that, Halo! Shows how intentive of an SH player I am...

[Sutailja]

She convinced Lil' Wally that his mother was waiting for him, and that Room 302 was mother. He was told that by reading "The Book" and by performing the Ritual of the 21 Sacraments, he would "awaken" his mother and they could be together again. In actuality, it was just a subterfuge to bring about the birth of God--known by the Sect of the Holy Mother as just that: The Holy Mother.

>Most I have talked to don't think that the 21 Sacraments have anything to do with the Holy Mother of SH1 +3.

They're right. The Holy Mother, according to the Sect of the Holy Mother--which Walter Sullivan belonged to--, is God. The Holy Mother, according to the Sect of the Holy Woman--which Dahlia Gillespie belonged to--, is Alessa.

Why would Dahlia then want to awaken the Holy Mother if she belongs to the Holy Woman sect. Just a bit confused.Or does it mean Alessa will be awakened?My head is spinning.

[JuriDawn]

The end result would be the same regardless of which sect summoned the god. Dahlia didn't care who got credit.

[Conjurer]

I disagree because otherwise, Dahlia wouldn't have messed with Walter's head.

[AuraTwilight]

Or she messed with his specifically so that the probability of God being born was increased. Walter was Plan B.

[Conjurer]

However, the two religious factions disagreed with each other on how to summon their god. In fact, there's a memo in the game that believes the 21 Sacraments will descend the devil (of the Order?). The person who wrote this sounds like a follower of the Order, yet someone who isn't in the sect of the Holy Mother which leads me to believe it was someone from the sect of the Holy Woman. Other facts that lead me to believe the two factions were opponents is because the saint medallions can protect you from hauntings. These saint medallions have the picture of Saint Alessa on them. So ask yourself this: Why in the world would a leader of an opposing sect help the conjurer with the 21 Sacraments if they believe it would summon an evil devil?.

[The Adversary]

Despite what I said years ago, Walter Sullivan wasn't "Plan B." Walter and Alessa were to be used in conjunction with one another, Mother & Father.

[Conjurer]

If that were the case, then why would Dahlia screw everything up? Unless the memo you find in the Wish House was written sometime around Silent Hill 3?

[JuriDawn]

How did Dahlia screw everything up? Sure, the members of the sect that raised Walter probably weren't expecting him to use them as sacraments, but he was on the road to success. Without Henry's intervention, Walter would have summoned God/descended the Holy Mother, whatever.

>Unless the memo you find in the Wish House was written sometime around Silent Hill 3?

Probably significantly before the events of SH3. The cult was searching for Alessa after the events of SH1, and the note also inquires after Walter's progress, so I would assume the note was written between 1983 and 1989 (when Walter left the orphanage), judging by The Adversary's timeline.

[BloodRedLion]

Walter and Alessa were to be used in conjunction with one another, Mother & Father.

How do you figure? Wouldn't one of them be sufficient? And if one had succeeded, what would have become of the other's efforts?

I don't know all that much about SH4, so my knowledge of the cults is really just what I've learned through 1 and 3, what I've learned about 4 through osmosis.

[Kenji]

Walter and Alessa were to be used in conjunction with one another, Mother & Father.

Well, and here I thought that The Adversary would rip my head off for suggesting such a thing, which is why I was waiting 'til I increased my post count before doing so. I, too, think that Alessa and Walter were to be counterparts in a single ceremony, though future installments may well turn that on its head. As far as the current materials go, it just ties itself up into a nice bow, that way.

If you look at the Order's creation myth, a man and woman were required for the original advent of God. For a proper advent in the future, why should it be any different? Note Walter's role as the Conjurer, infused with the essence of Valtiel, which I take to be more of a marker of his ceremonial position than anything else. His role is to perform the 21 Sacraments to purify a maternal host body to bear God. In SH4, he perverts the ceremony to his own purposes, sacrificing key Order members and sanctifying a room instead of a flesh-and-blood woman, who I think was supposed to be Alessa.

Also, note the presence of Valtiel in Heather's experiences. Of course, you can take it at face value that an actual Valtiel was wandering around, ensuring her protection and the completion of the ceremony. However, the more I think of it, the more I wonder if the Valtiel Heather sees is merely a placeholder for the absent Conjurer - in this case, Walter. Perhaps Valtiel isn't an individual being at all, so much as the official ceremonial position for the Conjurer?

Returning to the Wish House diaries, it's clear that there was cooperation between the sects of the Order, if they were even separate, back in the 70s. To my way of thinking, Dahlia and James Stone (I know he's known as "Jimmy" Stone, but I personally think that sounds a bit too cuddly, considering his position) were collaborating in a large-scale project to bring God into being. It must've been big, big enough to involve large sums of money, as Michael Kaufmann and the drug trade were tapped at that particular time to provide the necessary funds. Dahlia would prepare Alessa while Stone prepared Walter, until the promised time came and the ceremony would be complete.

However, it seems that Dahlia found a way to circumvent this ceremony and create one of her own (think Gendou Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion), having stumbled upon some knowledge that led her to believe that Walter's role wasn't necessary to the birth of God. I attribute this to her words (in flashback) on the staircase at the end of SH1, when she cryptically says that a mother's womb is all that's necessary and that she no longer needs to wait. Dahlia is frequently described as power-hungry and manipulative, and I'm sure she envisions herself as the right hand of God in the remade world - surely, she wouldn't want to share power with Stone, now would she? Therefore, she performs a new ceremony in her house, significantly earlier than what was originally planned, with the express purpose of cutting the rest of the Order leadership out of the loop. To further that end, Dahlia plants the idea in Walter's head to use the 21 Sacraments to revive his mother, who she leads him to believe is a room, thus irreparably sabotaging Stone's efforts (as it amounts symbolically to a sexual act with, simultaneously, his mother and an inanimate object - an abomination, no matter how you slice it). Because of that, the events of SH1, 3, and 4 result.

In other words, Dahlia ruined it for everyone. If this is indeed the case, it kinda makes me wonder what would've happened if the ceremony had proceeded as originally planned, with Walter performing the 21 Sacraments, purifying Alessa for the advent of God?

(Note: I'm using the term "purify" loosely)

[AuraTwilight]

If this is indeed the case, it kinda makes me wonder what would've happened if the ceremony had proceeded as originally planned, with Walter performing the 21 Sacraments, purifying Alessa for the advent of God?

Everyone dies. ^_^

[Kenji]

Everyone dies. ^_^

Hahaha, frankly, I don't think the result would've been too happy, myself. I mean, seriously, they were using two heavily abused children to bear God. How is that gonna result in anything pleasant? Two heavily abused children can hardly have a pleasant natural birth!

Though, if SH indeed digs out the hidden emotions, fears, etc., I seriously doubt that God could be born from humans with any kind of pleasant outcome. We tend to have horrible things buried in our hearts.