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 Post subject: I've got some... unsolved mysteries..

First off, I know that if I took the time to look this stuff up, I'd know it, and it's probably common knowledge to the more experienced SH veterans.. but hey, the internet is good for these things..


Alright, in Silent Hill 2....

* What actually happened to the 67 people that died in the lake? What is their significance? There is a memorial to them in Rosewater Park.. and there is also a book in the prison that tells you about the Little Baroness, a ship that "simply sank for some reason", but it's not the same ship, the article says that there were only 14 people on board of the Little Baroness, and then is says something along the lines of "A few years later, something stranger occured.." and then there are several pages torn out. So what's the deal?

* Who is Jennifer Carroll and what happened to her? (Another Rosewater Park memorial) And Patrick Chester? Is there any significance at all?

* There is a scene in the Bowling Alley where you see Eddie eating a pizza. The box clearly says "All Star's Pizza." Where is this store? And how did Eddie get the pizza? (Not really a question, I guess, just pointing it out.)

* If you play the new game + (Next Fear.. whatever.. when you beat the game and play again) you can collect the four items for the Rebirth ending. These items are all over the place in Silent Hill games... like every time you see an altar.. Including when you find the body of Walter in SH4. My questions are:

- what ceremony is performed with these items?
- In Lost Memories, it says that the people of Silent Hill once abandoned the town, for "reasons unknown." So why'd they leave? Is this just one of those unspoken mysteries?

* I just kind of realized in while reading another post that Frank Sunderland is the father of our main protagonist, James. So... why isn't this mentioned in either game? Is it mentioned, and I just overlooked it? I tend to obsess over these games and the mythology behind them.. and when my brain fails to put two and two together on something so obvious as this it bothers me..

* The "Rebirth" ending... James just kind of paddles off behind this island.. and there is some kind of building sitting on it, it almost looks like a church. What does this mean? I felt so ripped off after I got this ending...

* After the scene where Angela gives you the knife, there is a picture on the floor... obviously it's Angela's family, and obviously Angela's father was a terrible person to her.. but is that baby that's in the photo her? She mentions her brother in the beginning of the game, but that's the only time you hear about him.

I'm excited to find out the answers...


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RESPECT
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>What actually happened to the 67 people that died in the lake?
They died. It isn't very pretty what a town without pity can do. It further details the unfortunate history of Silent Hill--that "there's something wrong with this town."

>Who is Jennifer Carroll and what happened to her?
She was a martyr to The Order; a sacrifice to the Cause.

>And Patrick Chester?
Patrick & Edward Chester were son & father, and were town heroes of the Civil War. Again: More history to the town.

>what ceremony is performed with these items?
The Ceremony of the Resurrection of the Deceased.

>So why'd they leave?
...for "reasons unknown."

>why isn't this mentioned in either game?
Because James' father wasn't relevant at the time of Silent Hill 2.

>there is some kind of building sitting on it, it almost looks like a church. What does this mean?
That James has gathered the items for the Ceremony of the Resurrection of the Deceased and is going to conjure Xuchilbara, the red god--also known as Valtiel--, to resurrect his deceased wife.

>obviously it's Angela's family
Is it obvious?

Your signature is gigantic & exceeds the allotted size. I've removed it for you until you have it changed.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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 Post subject:

Quote:
>there is some kind of building sitting on it, it almost looks like a church. What does this mean?
That James has gathered the items for the Ceremony of the Resurrection of the Deceased and is going to conjure Xuchilbara, the red god--also known as Valtiel--, to resurrect his deceased wife.


The same Valtiel as in SH3? So he's going to resurrect his dead wife, ok.. I get it now... I mean I knew after watching the ending that it HAD to have some meaning, the items had to have something to do with it. But then, now I feel more unsatisfied with the ending than I did before.. It leaves alot to be desired from 7-8 hours of gameplay..

Quote:
>So why'd they leave?
...for "reasons unknown."


That's all the information there is? And another thing, are they talking about the people who stole the land from the natives, or the natives themselves?

(i'll fix the signature... sorry about that.. i'm not as forum savvy as i used to be)


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>The same Valtiel as in SH3?
Yes. But: Why disappointed? By far my favorite--and what I feel to be the most relevant.

>are they talking about the people who stole the land from the natives, or the natives themselves?
Depends on which occasion you're asking about; there's been a few instances when the town was abandoned.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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 Post subject:

I beat the game I think three times before I got the Rebirth ending, after I got "In Water"... which took me twice to get. I guess my excitement over an ending that I could just.. get... and not really have to do much else to ensure it.. just collect the items.. I was expecting more. So my thought was "Oh my god, I played this game AGAIN and this was my ending??" I understand the relevance of it now, but I mean.. if you hadn't told me that he was going to resurrect her, I would not have known. As much as I love these games and I'm so into the whole Silent Hill mythology, I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't know what was going on..

But this spawns, of course, yet ANOTHER question. The Island itself, that is shown in the ending, I remember one of my friends was playing the game and during the part where you row across the lake, he told me that he saw an island, and I wasn't there so I didn't see it, but is there a way you can see or visit that island?
(haha, please bear with me, pardon my ignorance, yada yada... I can understand if your frustrated and just want to throw up your arms and give up.. but I've got that curious mind..)

And yeah, I got that the town was abandoned at least twice... but.. is this right?

-Silent Hill is known as the land of Silent Spirits, or something along those lines, and native americans/indians live there, performing crazy rituals and holy ceremonies, perhaps using hallucinogens to achieve them
-Silent Hill is taken over by outsiders/pilgrims(?).. becomes a settlement..

Then what? Then the people leave for some reason, but come back?


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Nah, Adversary's a pretty patient fellow. Don't worry about asking questions--the fact that you want to learn more is a sign of your intelligence.

I've personally never seen this island, so I don't know if I could verify what your friend said. Nor have I ever tried to see it.. although I guess it's worth firing up SH2 to check it out..

"Then what? Then the people leave for some reason, but come back?"

Pretty much.. after the original settlers [the ones that took it over from the Native Americans] disappeared, the town was once again settled, and experiences little "bumps" throughout the decades; strange things happening, odd religious freakiness. The fact that the town goes abandoned throughout history ties in with this.

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I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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 Post subject:

So that's kind of what James means when he says "The old gods haven't left this place."

Well.. and it's a hint as to what's going on.

And I'm guessing that he goes and resurrects her, huh? But that can't be, things like that never turn out well.... right? I mean, bringing a living being back from the netherworld is a strict no-no, like serious black magic stuff... I mean.. he's got to be punished for it somehow, right? Or is the journey throughout the game the determining factor? Oh well, the game doesn't reveal that, of this I'm certain.. so that's just me saying "Oh.. that's pretty interesting.... Wonder what this means... blah blah."

Thanks! (I've got sets of questions written out for each SH game.. I write them as I play them. This is by far the shortest list.... Because I like things to make sense, and sometimes all it takes to understand something is someone else's perspective.)


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Well, that's up to your imagination.. I would imagine bringing his wife back from the dead and having her end up like a Pet Semetary character would be a worthy enough punishment for his actions, but truthfully? I haven't thought beyond that. All I know is that in the Rebirth ending James intends to do the ritual to bring Mary back to him.

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 Post subject:

Haha, he could just resurrect her and it just be Maria again. Then, he could just give up, and enjoy Maria's whore-ness for awhile.


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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Why would it be Maria "again"? If anything I think it'd be some creepy slack-jawed zombie spouting nonsense. Maria only spouted nonsense. And was mildly creepy.

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 Post subject:

Quote:
"The old gods haven't left this place."



Another lovecraft reference.


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Historical Society Historian
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Or just.. a truthful statement. Whatever works for you.

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I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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 Post subject:

Mary's body is decaying and full of disease, whether alive or dead.

Then again, it's Valtiel. Heather wasn't covered with burn scars, either.

Let me clarify that the native americans in the area were Aztecs. In history, they were the more violently ritualistic native americans.


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Just Passing Through
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I didn't think the Aztecs were as far north as "the american northeast"

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Aztecs? In New England?

Aztecs were located in Central America. Team Silent based the native Silent Hill folk off of the Aztecs and their beliefs, but I never heard of anything say they were the Aztecs.

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 Post subject:

Krist. wrote:
Or just.. a truthful statement. Whatever works for you.


The monsterous entities that control the universe are referred to as "The Elder Gods."


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Historical Society Historian
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Neat. I know and continue to know nothing about Lovecraft, though...

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Gravedigger
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Saturn Beads wrote:
Haha, he could just resurrect her and it just be Maria again. Then, he could just give up, and enjoy Maria's whore-ness for awhile.


That's what the Maria ending is for. A nice little "doomed to repeat history" curse *cough*. Personally I find the Rebirth ending the most intriguing (and I believe it to be the true ending) of the game. If you read the text of the items you gather it does allude to what James will intend to attempt with them. It leaves alot up to the imagination, I like to think that the ritual didn't have results that James would call good. I also don't believe the two ever left Silent Hill.

Kauser wrote:
Krist. wrote:
Or just.. a truthful statement. Whatever works for you.


The monsterous entities that control the universe are referred to as "The Elder Gods."


There are Lovecraftian references in the game, but I don't think this is one of them. I agree with Krist, in this case it is a literal reference to the gods of Silent Hill.


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 Post subject:

Quote:
There are Lovecraftian references in the game, but I don't think this is one of them. I agree with Krist, in this case it is a literal reference to the gods of Silent Hill.



You're probably not familiar with Shub-Niggurath: Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. Who has inherent ties to things like the "White Chrism" and the whole "God of Resurrection" deal.

If you want to chalk it up as three cooincidences, won't bother me. The alternative is what makes my world spin though.


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Gravedigger
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Kauser wrote:
Quote:
There are Lovecraftian references in the game, but I don't think this is one of them. I agree with Krist, in this case it is a literal reference to the gods of Silent Hill.



You're probably not familiar with Shub-Niggurath: Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. Who has inherent ties to things like the "White Chrism" and the whole "God of Resurrection" deal.

If you want to chalk it up as three cooincidences, won't bother me. The alternative is what makes my world spin though.


I am familiar with the entire mythos actually. Shub-Niggurath is not an Elder God, it is the Outer God[dess] of fertility, which is very different from resurrection. The Elder Gods and Outer Gods are two different pantheons. The Elder Gods were more a creation of August Derleth than Lovecraft and used as a device to force morality into the Mythos by making them the good to oppose the "evil" of the Great Old Ones (yet another pantheon, this of god-like aliens, not literal gods). This morality clearly violates Lovecrafts views of cosmic amorality. For just that reason I find it very hard to equate Silent Hill with anything Lovecraftian aside from the respectful references. Silent Hill very clearly has a moralistic cosmology.

When it comes to the White Chrism, I don't see the connection at all. Again, fertility is not resurrection. Symobolically the whole ritual of resurrection seems much closer to the christian ritual of baptism with its purpose for the baptised to be allowed to be reborn into heaven after death.


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