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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Toluca Prison (does it still exist?)

Missing since: 10 Dec 2005
Notes left: 35
I'm new to the boards so forgive me if this topic has been previously discussed. One of my favorite parts of the game is Toluca Prison. When making your descent from the Historical Society, as well as all those holes you jump down, one might assume the prison is underground.

The painting in the Historical Society shows the prison is clearly aboveground. Granted, the laws of physics rarely make sense in Silent Hill games. Given the absurd nature of gaining entrance to the prison, is it feasible that Toluca Prison simply does not exist anymore? and was part of James' twisted delusions?


Last edited by anamelessone on 10 Dec 2005, edited 2 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11057
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
When you exit the refrigerator after fighting Eddie, and you look behind you from the dock, you'll see the prison, and that it is most certainly above-ground.

The prison is now part of the Historical society.

The Adversary will eventually come along and explain it in greater detail, probably with pictures. Stay tuned.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 10 Dec 2005
Notes left: 35
Yeah the dock comes to mind. The Labyrinth is seemingly on a lower level than even the prison itself (the hatch on the floor). The only logical conclusion I can come to is the Historical Society is placed on a rather large hill above the entrance to the prison. I'm trying to figure out where the prison is situated on the map. Maybe its one of those things that isn't supposed to make sense. :)


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11057
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
The prison (that you see) and the Labyrinth exist out of normal space/time, once you jump down that first hole, you're in the twilight zone for awhile. So, you jump down a good ten stories and travel at least a mile or two, yet you only end up about fifty feet from where you started once you exit the freezer.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 13 Nov 2005
Notes left: 429
Last seen at: Teen Town
The Prison is part of the abyss that James goes through, starting with the stairs leading underground.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
It still physically exists, too. I think the one you see is just, of course, a tad different than the real one. Next time you leave the meat locker after fighting Eddie, walk all the way to the right and angle James so you can see the giant sign that warns people from transporting prisoners.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
The Historical Society's front door:
Image

Toluca Prison's front door:
Image

At the turn into the 20th century, right round 1900, Toluca Prison closed, and Silent Hill "became a sight-seeing community." The Historical Society was converted out of the front entrance of Toluca Prison: thus the same door.

When you exit the "prison"--yes, the prison James goes through is part of the Abyss, outside of time & space, and spans the time between the HOLE-in-the-wall of the Historical Society, all the way to the end of the game--you end up on the docks of Toluca Lake, which Toluca Prison was built along. If you look up, you'll see the parapets of the prison itself:
Image

This is a picture of Toluca Prison, very much above ground, as seen in the Historical Society:
Image

>The Labyrinth is seemingly on a lower level than even the prison itself
The Labyrinth, also known as the Abyss, is outside of time & space, and doesn't exist in any conventional sense; trying to map it's physical location is impossible to do. Remember: In the span of time that James goes through the Abyss, he sees Toluca Prison from nearly one-hundred years ago, Wiltse Coal Mine, & King Minos' Labyrinth.

Anything else?

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Last edited by The Adversary on 20 May 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:

The prison doesn't exist any more, the dock, prison walls and hotel are just hallucinations, the prison and labyrinth are out side of reality in some otherworld created by James's mind. (though I say he's not hallucinating, he is still in the abyss and never leaves it.)


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
>The prison doesn't exist any more
Where'd it go then?, when it's right there.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 10 Dec 2005
Notes left: 35
Quote:
At the turn into the 20th century, right round 1900, Toluca Prison closed, and Silent Hill "became a sight-seeing community." The Historical Society was converted out of the front entrance of Toluca Prison: thus the same door.


The doors are interesting, I never noticed that before. The Abyss part I understand well enough, I know when James descends down the stairs he really starts losing his marbles. James 'trip back in time' only adds to the mystique of the prison.

Quote:
It still physically exists, too. I think the one you see is just, of course, a tad different than the real one.


Now this is part of what is confuses me a bit. If Toluca Prison still physically exists in the 'real' Silent Hill where might it be located? I can only come to a few conclusions from my point of view.

A) The prison was demolished and a museum/tourist attraction was built in its place. Hence the same doors. Therefore, no longer physically exists.
B) The Prison still physically exists behind the Historical Society. (The picture of the prison docks and parapets, if James somehow snapped out of La La land at this point.)
C) The prison still exists as part of the Historical Society, but given the size of the Historical Society building, as opposed to an average sized prison hundreds of feet in diameter, one might question how there is room for it.


Last edited by anamelessone on 10 Dec 2005, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Look at the pictures Adversary posted--and then read his post again. Especially this:
Quote:
The Historical Society was converted out of the front entrance of Toluca Prison: thus the same door.
.

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I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
>where might it be located?
Right behind the Historical Society. The areas you can access in the Historical Society are parts of the prison converted. The prison itself still exists, its just no longer in use--now: a tourist attraction.

Also: Compare the floors of both Toluca Prison & the Historical Society. Same tiled floors. Also: Compare the layout--which I can't believe no one's done yet, after four years--of the two. I'll draw out the map here tonight for all to see.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 10 Dec 2005
Notes left: 35
Did some reading up on this today. Found a 'Lost Memories' Silent Hill Chronicle. I'm not sure how Canon this is so bear with me.

http://silenthillchronicle.net/history.htm

prison

After the spread of an epidemic, resettling of the town as a penal colony
begins

Many people lost their lives on this abominable soil. Consequently, the
town was used at first as a penal colony. It was at this time that it was
given the name "Silent Hill."

After the closing of the prison, the Historical Society was built on its
former site. It conveys a sense of the town's history.


So does this mean that all that remains of the original prison structure is the doors? 'Built on its former site' would indicate to me it was demolished.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
>'Built on its former site' would indicate to me it was demolished.
Not to me. Former site just indicates it's no longer in use. The prison is obviously still there: the photo of it alone should suggest that.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 24 Oct 2003
Notes left: 5534
Last seen at: Room 311, making a noise complaint
*waiting for the map* :mrgreen:

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
These two maps are the exact same surface area. The top map is of Toluca Prison; the bottom map is of the Historical Society. Toluca Prison, after its closing, was converted & remodeled into the Historical Society.

Image

A. These rooms were transformed into the Employee's Area.
B. The staircase was removed to make room for the parking lot, and the hallway was converted into a main hall for the Historical Society.
C. The right-most hallway was removed so the display rooms would be larger.
D. This room was removed entirely for the parking lot.

Image

Further proof that the prison is still there--in its entirety, behind what we see of the Historical Society--is the photograph of it that I posted towards the top of this thread. That photograph is real, very, and would be impossible to've been taken back in the 1850s. The prison is no longer in use, but it's still there as a building.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Last edited by The Adversary on 20 May 2010, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Bloody brilliant. Can't thank you enough for these observations, duckie.

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I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 10 Dec 2005
Notes left: 35
Quote:
A. These rooms were transformed into the Employee's Area.
B. The staircase was removed to make room for the parking lot, and the hallway was converted into a main hall for the Historical Society.
C. The right-most hallway was removed so the display rooms would be larger.
D. This room was removed entirely for the parking lot.


Well, you made a believer outta' me. I totally did not count the parking lot into the equation (forest for trees). Thanks for making these maps and laying any doubts to rest. :)


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
Thanks Adversary,just between me and you ,I thought they were all nuts.
So,the key to the historical soscity is actually a key to the prison?

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 Post subject:

In a way, yes.


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