Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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The Adversary
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

>Yeah, that’s kinda what I figured—not indicative or anything. If anything that’s room 209 or 210.<
I'm an idiot. That would potentially be room 208 if you start at 200 on the left side.

>I really don't see any evidence that he took her anywhere other than home to kill her.<
It doesn't make sense that he would set up a tiny room with a dingy bed and a side table in their own home. Why wouldn't he make her as comfortable as possible in her actual bed?

Secondly, James doesn't necessarily feel guilt for killing her. He does because he abandoned her for years. And then he brings her back to her "special place," kills her in an abandoned building, and then finds himself in an abandoned town. Even further, he abandons Maria multiple times. Per Ryantology's and my recent conversation regarding this: "And abandonment is all over his interactions with Maria, from having to be manipulated into allowing her to tag along, to ANYWAY WHAT DO YOU MEAN ANYWAY, to the long hallway scene."

You even have one last opportunity to abandon his own memories of her in the final hallway sequence, when Mary is pleading for him not to leave. She repeatedly tells him to leave and then there's a pause, almost as if James has already walked to the door of her hospital room. And then she begs for him to stay, to tell her it'll be all right. And he's out the door. But, you know what, you can just walk through that door without having to hear it. You can literally make James go, "Nah, I don't wanna remember that."

>Could he have killed her in the slaughterhouse or wherever it is you fight Eddie and then emerge from the Labyrinth?<
I wouldn't call that a slaughterhouse, really. I think it's just supposed to represent the prison kitchen/cooler.

Regardless, I see the room 208 in the labyrinth as proof its supposed to be a reflection of her hospital room in St. Jerome's. Same bed as in the flashback, and the wilted flowers are found in what could be room 208 in the hospital.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Droo »

So did he kill her in the hospital maybe? Why else would she die in Room 208 in the Labyrinth?
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by TheEyeofNight »

The Adversary wrote: 16 Jul 2021 >I really don't see any evidence that he took her anywhere other than home to kill her.<
It doesn't make sense that he would set up a tiny room with a dingy bed and a side table in their own home. Why wouldn't he make her as comfortable as possible in her actual bed?
Fair point, unless they had a guest bedroom or something, but I concede that it wouldn't make a lot of sense even then. I would think a motel in or around Silent Hill would make more sense than an abandoned building though. Of course this is all speculation, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

And Droo, the only problem with that would be getting her body out of the hospital without being stopped or noticed by the staff. I suppose it's marginally possible, but still unlikely.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Droo »

TheEyeofNight wrote: 16 Jul 2021
The Adversary wrote: 16 Jul 2021 >I really don't see any evidence that he took her anywhere other than home to kill her.<
It doesn't make sense that he would set up a tiny room with a dingy bed and a side table in their own home. Why wouldn't he make her as comfortable as possible in her actual bed?
Fair point, unless they had a guest bedroom or something, but I concede that it wouldn't make a lot of sense even then. I would think a motel in or around Silent Hill would make more sense than an abandoned building though. Of course this is all speculation, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

And Droo, the only problem with that would be getting her body out of the hospital without being stopped or noticed by the staff. I suppose it's marginally possible, but still unlikely.
We know the power of the town can extend to St. Jerome. If he killed her there, I wouldn't be surprised if both James and Mary's corpse shifted to the Foggy World and they wouldn't have been visible leaving the hospital.

Although SH4 says James disappeared in Silent Hill, and Frank would have no reason to say that if James had last been seen in Ashfield.
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I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by TheEyeofNight »

Droo wrote: 16 Jul 2021 We know the power of the town can extend to St. Jerome. If he killed her there, I wouldn't be surprised if both James and Mary's corpse shifted to the Foggy World and they wouldn't have been visible leaving the hospital.

Although SH4 says James disappeared in Silent Hill, and Frank would have no reason to say that if James had last been seen in Ashfield.
True, for some reason I never really considered that possibility. There's also the scene during SH2's intro video that shows James carrying Mary's lifeless body out of somewhere that looks pretty damn desolate that would seem to lend credence to that line of thinking.
To be honest, this is a subject I really haven't thought much about, so I have no problem admitting that I may have been wrong here.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Ryantology »

Perhaps the truth is halfway in between. Maybe, James really did kill Mary at home, and when we see it, the setting has the same abandoned and neglected look as everything in town, because James is truly in the grasp of the town from the moment he decides to do the deed (and maybe he had already decided before she came home). Maybe he's actually in the otherworld from the moment the deed is done, and he drives to town already trapped in the thing, the way Douglas and Heather drive a long distance without ever apparently returning to 'reality'.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Droo »

Ryantology wrote: 17 Jul 2021 Perhaps the truth is halfway in between. Maybe, James really did kill Mary at home, and when we see it, the setting has the same abandoned and neglected look as everything in town, because James is truly in the grasp of the town from the moment he decides to do the deed (and maybe he had already decided before she came home). Maybe he's actually in the otherworld from the moment the deed is done, and he drives to town already trapped in the thing, the way Douglas and Heather drive a long distance without ever apparently returning to 'reality'.
And "home" is generally agreed as Ashfield? Already in the thrall of the town due to Walter Sullivan's shenanigans?

Might explain why the town bothered to reveal Walter's deeds to James at all.

EDIT: When you approach Room 208 in the Hotel you can hear someone crying, but it doesn't sound like Mary or Maria.

And of course the lock is broken so you can't enter 208.
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I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

I don't know why but I've always thought the crying was from whoever was in 202, the room with the photos. In my mind they were a victim of suicide and the puling was the remnant of their memory.

>I would think a motel in or around Silent Hill would make more sense than an abandoned building though.<
That was more or less my thought the entire time. I don't see how James could feasibly get Mary out without anyone noticing.

Going by my theory that Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital briefly, and that the diary on the roof is Mary's, I think James picks her up on 13 May when she's been released (as per the diary) knowing full well he was going to kill her (and possibly himself). He takes her to an abandoned building in town—because he's already in Silent Hill—and sets up the room to resemble their home. Mary of course is incapable of stopping him. He kills her, puts her body in the trunk, and starts driving home to Ashfield. He stops outside of town—maybe because the town prevents him from leaving—and heads into the restroom to think about what he's done. He reads the letter and his delusion has already established itself. Then the game begins.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Hammerin'InMyHead »

Perhaps the series of events happen as we play them. James seems to follow the same path he took back when he killed Mary.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

^
I'm not sure I understand your comment.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Droo »

The Adversary wrote: 20 Jul 2021 ^
I'm not sure I understand your comment.
I read it as maybe James killed Mary in the Hotel and then backtracks his path back to his car after getting back to it.
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I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

Well that's just silly.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Hammerin'InMyHead »

No, no. I meant we see the events leading up to Mary's murder just as they take place. Whatever is implied to be a memory actually isn't—it's the present. James's in-game journey through Silent Hill is in fact James's and Mary's last trip to Silent Hill.

Or it was just the dog.
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

Except . . . we don’t see Mary’s death firsthand. It’s strictly in a The Ring-like VHS memory-branding.

That also doesn’t explain Laura being present when she was with Mary at St. Jerome’s in Ashfield. Or that the town is abandoned when the town was not when the newlyweds visited previously. Or lots of other things.

Sorry, it just doesn’t work.

But it has led me to another question. . . .
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by Hammerin'InMyHead »

We do see Mary being killed cos that's literally the ending of the game. Is the town really abandoned? (Laura saying "are you blind or something?")

Some of the kinks to resolve are the amount of memorabilia which reference the present as if it were the past i.e. the old newspaper in the prison with today's date, Mary's letter and the tape amongst other stuff but I expect you to figure those out <3

Masahiro Ito's comments on SH2 taking place in the late 70s or early 80s seem to have stirred this up for me, plus I remember there being a calendar "from ten years ago" in Born From a Wish. They all seem to be self-referencing vestiges belonging to the present transferred into the past? But it's just an idea and my terrible memory.

Edit: Just remembered Stanley Coleman's doll in SH3, which always messed with my head, and how the doll seemed to move in real time with the events and how the diary entries seemed to be written in real time yet we never saw Stanley, somehow implying it was something that occurred in the past, but clearly occurring in the present?
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Re: Where did mary die? (spoilers in thread, not title)

Post by The Adversary »

SILENT HILL 3 has a lot of references to ghosts, so I've always taken Stanley's diary and the doll as another example of ghosts actually manifesting in Silent Hill. I think this was the precursor to SILENT HILL 4: THE ROOM, in which ghosts are introduced as a mainstay of the series, but in a very different way.

>plus I remember there being a calendar "from ten years ago" in Born From a Wish.<
I haven't looked back in this thread but I think I addressed that. Or at least in the more recent "Silent Hill 2 Timeline" thread.

So that calendar is in Amy Baldwin's bedroom, and she died 10 years ago from the events of SILENT HILL 2. Ernest tells Maria, "It's been 10 years, but I still. . . ." when talking about his daughter's death. Because we can make out when the days/dates are and month of it (November), I went back and found that a coinciding real-world calendar is from 1984—conveniently 10 years before 1994 (when I had initially placed SILENT HILL 2)—further cementing when the game took place.

*edited for clarity
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