Hello all.
This is a theory that I have posted on other forms. It's been years since I have had to articulate it again, but I'd like to share it nonetheless.....
My theory ties James to all of the characters he meets on his journey through Silent Hill as I believe he meets them not by chance but by design and directly ties Angela, Eddie, Laura, and Maria to different endings of the game. Many others could have been called to Town, but the Town ensures that James' path intersects with these characters for a reason.
Obviously, Maria is tied to the Maria ending and Laura is tied to Leave so I will not touch on those 2.
I will begin with Angela. James meets Angela in the graveyard, and they let each other know right off the bat that they are looking for people that aren’t part of their lives anymore. The similarities are established early on.
Angela's apartment mirror scene really captures the essence of my theory. James walks into a room where the entire wall is a mirror, while, at the same time, Angela is using the knifes blade as a mirror as well. The scene ties Anglea to the In Water ending James can get and that a lot of people think is the cannon ending of the game.
There is a brief conversation at the very beginning of the interaction that touches upon suicide seen below.
Angela: Oh... it's you.
James: Yeah... I'm James
Angela: Angela...
James: Angela... okay. I don't know what you're planning... But there's always another way.
Angela: Really? But... You're the same as me. It's easier just to run. Besides, it's what we deserve.
James: No... I'm not like you.
Angela: *sarcasm*Are you afraid'*/sarcasm* I, I'm sorry.
A quick thing I'd like to point out is that every time James is faced with the truth, he flat-out denies it.
Angela mocks James for being afraid to end his life just as she is contemplating doing at that moment. The question that Silent Hill has placed in front of James is are you the type of person that will ultimately take your own life....... like Angela....
This is spelled out at the end of the scene.
James: What about that?
*James points to the butcher knife Angela is still holding*
Angela: Will you hold it for me?
James: Sure. No problem.
Angela: If I kept it.... I'm not sure what I might do......
To bring this thought pattern full circle, James' dialogue in the In Water ending really spells this out:
James: Now I understand. The real reason I came to this town.
*The sound of a car starting is then heard.*
James: I wonder what was I afraid of? Without you, Mary, I've got nothing....
*A car is heard racing along a road for a short time.*
James: Now we can be together....
On to Eddie.
James and Eddie cross paths after both have, IMO, committed their 1st murder. Meeting Eddie while he is stress vomiting in the bathroom in the apartments really spells this out.
James: What the...? Who could have done this...?
Eddie: It wasn't me! I didn't do it!
James: Do what?
Eddie: I didn't do anything. I, I swear! He was like this when I got here...
James: My uh, my name's James. James Sunderland.
Eddie: Ummm... Eddie.
James: Eddie, who's that dead guy in the kitchen?
Eddie: I didn't do it. I swear I didn't kill anybody.
Both James and Eddie deny, consciously and subconsciously that they have committed murder as James remarks that Mary died 3 years ago. I believe that Eddie is tied to the Maria ending as in this ending James, just like Eddie, embraces the fact that he is a cold blooded killer. Just like Eddie. Before the Eddie boss fight James and Eddie have this exchange.
James: You think it's okay to kill people! You need help, Eddie!
Eddie: Don't get all holy on me, James. This town called you, too. You and me are the same. We're not like other people. Don't you know that'!
This further illustrated by what James says in the Maria ending seen below.
Mary: James, I've been waiting.
James: Mary... I'm sorry it took so long.
Mary: Didn't you want to see me?
James: Yes, I wanted to see you. Even an illusion of you.... That's why I came here.
Mary: That's not true, is it? You killed me...
James: I couldn't watch you suffer.
Mary: Don't make excuses, James. I know I was a burden on you. You must have hated me. That's why you got rid of me. James: It's true... I may have had some of those feelings. It was a long three years... I was... tired.
Mary: And that's why you needed this 'Maria' person'?
This is part 1 of 2 of my theory.
I will touch on what endings Maria and Laura are tied to that aren't directly tied to the characters most obvious endings in part 2.
You're the Same as me.........
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- Just Passing Through
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You're the Same as me.........
I'm going to town either way.........
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- Just Passing Through
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 09 Sep 2024
- Gender: Male
Re: You're the Same as me.........
Hello all.
Here is part 2 of my theory on how all of the characters James meets on his journey through Silent Hill happen not by chance, but by design.
Both Maria and Laura are tied to endings that are not obvious, like Laura to Leave and Maria to the Maria ending. But by seeing why James meets them in the 1st place we can garner a better understanding as to how they become catalysts for other endings.
For Laura, it is rather perplexing why an 8 year-old child would be part of a story so heavily soaked in adult themes. I believe Laura is tied to the Maria ending. James’ interactions with Laura are, in a way, another form of abuse that James must endure. The 1st interaction they have, Laura steps on James’ hand. Then she locks James in a room with Flesh Lip.
These interactions are a way for James to garner a better understanding of selflessness. This will ultimately show whether James is able to embrace a new understanding of selflessness or choose to be as selfish as he was when he chose to take Marys life.
Suppose James is unable to rise above the choice to kill Mary, never gaining a better understanding of what it truly means to be selfless, he’ll look just as selfish as he did when he killed Mary and choose Maria, a product of his delusions, learning nothing from his journey through Silent Hill.
On to Maria.
My take on Maria, is that she is not only produced by James’ subconscious, but from the “footprint” Mary left in town during her stay. This is evident by the fact that it is Maria, “Marys’ thoughts and emotions” that push James to continue to pursue Laura seen below.
Maria: So what about Laura? Did you find her?
James: Yeah, but she ran away.
Maria: We've got to find her!
James: You really seem to care about her. Do you know her?
Maria: I never met her before. I just feel sorry for her. She's all alone... And for some reason... I feel like it's up to me to protect her.
I believe Maria is tied to the Leave ending. As it is Maria, “Marys’ thoughts and emotions” that ultimately push James to continue searching for Laura and garner a better understanding of selflessness going forward. What better way to illustrate that James has garnered a better understanding of selflessness by him Leaving Silent Hill with the young girl Mary wanted to adopt….
Here is part 2 of my theory on how all of the characters James meets on his journey through Silent Hill happen not by chance, but by design.
Both Maria and Laura are tied to endings that are not obvious, like Laura to Leave and Maria to the Maria ending. But by seeing why James meets them in the 1st place we can garner a better understanding as to how they become catalysts for other endings.
For Laura, it is rather perplexing why an 8 year-old child would be part of a story so heavily soaked in adult themes. I believe Laura is tied to the Maria ending. James’ interactions with Laura are, in a way, another form of abuse that James must endure. The 1st interaction they have, Laura steps on James’ hand. Then she locks James in a room with Flesh Lip.
These interactions are a way for James to garner a better understanding of selflessness. This will ultimately show whether James is able to embrace a new understanding of selflessness or choose to be as selfish as he was when he chose to take Marys life.
Suppose James is unable to rise above the choice to kill Mary, never gaining a better understanding of what it truly means to be selfless, he’ll look just as selfish as he did when he killed Mary and choose Maria, a product of his delusions, learning nothing from his journey through Silent Hill.
On to Maria.
My take on Maria, is that she is not only produced by James’ subconscious, but from the “footprint” Mary left in town during her stay. This is evident by the fact that it is Maria, “Marys’ thoughts and emotions” that push James to continue to pursue Laura seen below.
Maria: So what about Laura? Did you find her?
James: Yeah, but she ran away.
Maria: We've got to find her!
James: You really seem to care about her. Do you know her?
Maria: I never met her before. I just feel sorry for her. She's all alone... And for some reason... I feel like it's up to me to protect her.
I believe Maria is tied to the Leave ending. As it is Maria, “Marys’ thoughts and emotions” that ultimately push James to continue searching for Laura and garner a better understanding of selflessness going forward. What better way to illustrate that James has garnered a better understanding of selflessness by him Leaving Silent Hill with the young girl Mary wanted to adopt….
I'm going to town either way.........
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- Just Passing Through
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Re: You're the Same as me.........
To start, I’d like to thank you for your thoughts and feedback. I am happy to be able to engage in conversation on this beloved franchise/game of mine. Thanks for taking the time to read and converse with me about my thoughts here.
In stark contrast, James has multiple paths he himself chooses. Everyone is called because of the darkness in their hearts. With Eddie and Angela, their journeys are black and white so to speak. James' journey is as grey as it gets. James' path is designed in such a way, that meeting these characters reflects who he actually is, depending on his choices.
Nobody is confused at the fact that Angela is tied to the In Water ending. This is a fact. This is by far the largest catalyst as to how and why he meets everyone else except Maria. This is the best example as to why the dialogue between James and Mary/Maria differs at the end of the game depending on the choice James makes. It has nothing to do with other characters, such as Maria and Eddie interacting with each other. I am unsure why you keep touching upon this. I never suggested this, and it never happens. It’s impossible. It has to do with who James is and why he did what he did. His search for the truth of who he really is, is reflected right back at him in certain instances depending upon which ending he gets, which path he chooses.
Both Eddie and Angela use the exact same phrase to James. “You’re the same as me”
Angela mocks James during their scene in the apartments asking “are you afraid….?, when James suggests that he is not like Angela, not a person that would take his own life. A direct tie to that scene is heard during the In Water ending dialogue, James asks himself, “I wonder what I was afraid of”. The handoff of the knife serves as an indicator that these interactions are more than just happenstance. It serves as an indicator that James “receives” more between his interactions one would 1st perceive. It’s the reason why Angela speaks to him while using it as a mirror….
James watches Eddie become a killer after each interaction. Eddie embraces violence because of the abuse he has endured, justifying his actions.
A direct tie to this is confirmed during the Maria ending dialogue, as Mary accuses James that the reason he killed her was because he hated her, and James confirms this. James killed Mary because of the abuse he has endured. He has chosen violence to end the abuse, mirroring Eddie's tendencies. This is exactly how Eddie matches what happens in the Maria ending. The parallels and reflections between the 2 are abundantly clear. In the Maria ending, James admits he chose to murder Mary, in the same way Eddie chooses to murder his tormentors.
Calling
“the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.”
^ In no way does this description exclude anyone just because they do not have guilt or a need to be judged. Affliction has a broad definition. There is a plethora of different reasons anyone could be called. Including these characters. Your outlook seems to be an oversimplification of what’s happening in this game and takes away from the true essence of why some are called in the 1st place…
Only focusing on just these 3 characters takes away from the overall theme and essence of the game. Laura and Maria play pivotal roles in the story, as far as how it ends, regardless of getting the Leave or Maria ending or not, and it cannot be overlooked. Because of this, James is forced, consciously and/or subconsciously to question and struggle with what he did. But more importantly, why he did it. The “why” is so much more important in this story. There are multiple instances where James, through the themes and motifs used throughout the narrative, has a chance to learn and/or realize things about himself, thus having a choice to embrace or reject it. This serves as an overarching theme regarding the spectrum of different perceptions and points of view laid out via the interactions between all the characters. This is illustrated by Angela, and her fire otherworld, in contrast to Eddie and his freezer otherworld.
In Eddie's case, regarding James, he reflects James’ switch from husband and caregiver to murderer, and in Angela’s case, she reflects James’ failure to take care of the person he should have cared for the most.
In fact, it is most likely the cause of James being able to actually see and experience other peoples otherworlds. James has met Angela several times, but it is only when he garners a better understanding (perception/point of view) of Angela's plight, that he is able to see what Angela's otherworld is really like.
All that I am laying out is what is given to us in the source material. Nothing that I have suggested is not directly implied by the source material itself. It is heavily suggested by the interactions and certain ongoing motifs that there is more going on than just luck and/or happenstance that James meets and interacts with everyone.
Take for instance the burning staircase scene. When James steps into Angela's otherworld, she does not see him for who he is. She sees him for who he reflects. She sees him as her mother. She sees him as the one person who would/should care for and protect her. At the same time, she knows the truth about him…..
And what happens....?
Once she looks directly into James’ eyes, she is shown a direct reflection of who her mother really is. A person who did not care for and protect the one person she should have. She sees James. She sees a person who did not want his wife around anymore because she was too much of a burden. She is shown that her mother never cared for her. This reflection serves as the trigger for her eventuality. It ensures that she knows that what she was searching for never existed in the 1st place.
This motif has a dual purpose in this scene, as Angela requests the knife back and suggests that James is saving it for himself when he refuses to give it back to her. James and Angelas interactions serve as the leitmotif in Silent Hill 2. As Angela is there to further James' self-reflection, in turn, James does the same thing for Angela.
Just because the other characters don’t have the same significance and impact to James than Angela does, does not make their roles any less important. This full-circle event stands as the fully realized illustration of what is happening in one degree or another with all of the characters and interactions. It’s exactly why we get the scene. It’s why James is not allowed to go up the staircase to try and help Angela again. Both characters are tied to each others eventuality, and neither cannot interfere with their conclusions.
So, in certain instances, James reflects, “is the same as” either Eddie or Angela. At the same time, other characters do the same thing for James in his search for who he is and why he did what he did.
The difference here, regarding my theory, all revolves around the ultimate choice James makes in the end. This choice IMO is not influenced by the individuals he meets during his journey. His journey is his alone. James would make these same choices regardless of who he meets as they are the only roads he can choose to travel, metaphorically speaking. Reflections are a large part of the game. James meeting these characters are reflections of himself in particular instances. So, the characters do not symbolize any of the endings, they are tied to them, and serve as reflections of the choices James makes himself. Of who he is and/or could be. This is exactly why he meets them and no others.Disrupticon wrote: ↑09 Nov 2024 So, I've thought over it a lot and I'm doing my best to be as generous as possible to your interpretation. But to put it gently I think you're getting wildly confused here.
With regards to your point:You seem to be trying to create a distinction without a difference here.I am not suggesting endings symbolize characters, I believe they are tied to them.
My outlook of why the towns power allows James to interact with these characters has to do with the fact that James has these choices to begin with. Not everything in the game is “transactional”. Meaning, that just because there are no conditions that must be met does not take away from the significance the characters bring to the multiple roads James can travel. Eddie and Angela's journeys are set. They have only one path. Eddie’s path ends at the hands of James and Angela’s path ends by her own hand.Disrupticon wrote: ↑09 Nov 2024I really think you need to go back and either rework this theory (or just discard it entirely - it happens to the best of us, there's no shame in going back and reassessing somewhat hastily thought out ideas). You're tangling yourself up into an idea spagetti, particularly at one point by trying to force Eddie's character to match with that of the Maria ending - which feels like a gigantic reach to me.
There's no circumstance at all in the game where Maria and Eddie interact, and Eddie has no bearing on any of the endings. You do not acquire any of the items or conditions needed to satisfy getting the Maria ending from Eddie. Eddie does not die due his glutonous or hedonistic nature - he dies because his persecutory delusions lead him to believe James is just shrugging him off and quietly laughing at him like everyone else in his life.
In stark contrast, James has multiple paths he himself chooses. Everyone is called because of the darkness in their hearts. With Eddie and Angela, their journeys are black and white so to speak. James' journey is as grey as it gets. James' path is designed in such a way, that meeting these characters reflects who he actually is, depending on his choices.
Nobody is confused at the fact that Angela is tied to the In Water ending. This is a fact. This is by far the largest catalyst as to how and why he meets everyone else except Maria. This is the best example as to why the dialogue between James and Mary/Maria differs at the end of the game depending on the choice James makes. It has nothing to do with other characters, such as Maria and Eddie interacting with each other. I am unsure why you keep touching upon this. I never suggested this, and it never happens. It’s impossible. It has to do with who James is and why he did what he did. His search for the truth of who he really is, is reflected right back at him in certain instances depending upon which ending he gets, which path he chooses.
Both Eddie and Angela use the exact same phrase to James. “You’re the same as me”
Angela mocks James during their scene in the apartments asking “are you afraid….?, when James suggests that he is not like Angela, not a person that would take his own life. A direct tie to that scene is heard during the In Water ending dialogue, James asks himself, “I wonder what I was afraid of”. The handoff of the knife serves as an indicator that these interactions are more than just happenstance. It serves as an indicator that James “receives” more between his interactions one would 1st perceive. It’s the reason why Angela speaks to him while using it as a mirror….
James watches Eddie become a killer after each interaction. Eddie embraces violence because of the abuse he has endured, justifying his actions.
A direct tie to this is confirmed during the Maria ending dialogue, as Mary accuses James that the reason he killed her was because he hated her, and James confirms this. James killed Mary because of the abuse he has endured. He has chosen violence to end the abuse, mirroring Eddie's tendencies. This is exactly how Eddie matches what happens in the Maria ending. The parallels and reflections between the 2 are abundantly clear. In the Maria ending, James admits he chose to murder Mary, in the same way Eddie chooses to murder his tormentors.
BoLM quote:Disrupticon wrote: ↑09 Nov 2024There's a reason James, Eddie, and Angela are specifically framed as a triad in the game, and that's because taking one out to try and contrast with another leaves you wothout the whole picture. While Silent Hill certainly is not some cosmic magistrate with a will of its own, but the common thread between these three characters is that they either feel like they're being judged, or need to be judged. The game is a thematic exploration of the different forms that judgement can take - whether it be in the form of residual familial trauma, feelings of persecution (whether justified or not), or long term repressed guilt. Eddie and Angela simply serve as alternative narrative devices for how different forms of judgement and guilt manifest themselves in people. That's literally it.
Eddie is not hiding anything from himself like James is - he knows full well what he's done and doesn't want to face the concequences because he's felt judged in other ways all his life. James has fully repressed what he's done like he'd repressed his resentment towards Mary. And lastly, Angela is seeking out her mother because she requires absolution from her after murdering her father and brother - despite her mother never granting her that, and by all indications intentionally abandoned Angela to the other Orosco family members.
Calling
“the town has come to be a place that calls those who hold a profound darkness in their hearts. It seems that people with afflicted minds are easily drawn to the otherworld.”
^ In no way does this description exclude anyone just because they do not have guilt or a need to be judged. Affliction has a broad definition. There is a plethora of different reasons anyone could be called. Including these characters. Your outlook seems to be an oversimplification of what’s happening in this game and takes away from the true essence of why some are called in the 1st place…
Only focusing on just these 3 characters takes away from the overall theme and essence of the game. Laura and Maria play pivotal roles in the story, as far as how it ends, regardless of getting the Leave or Maria ending or not, and it cannot be overlooked. Because of this, James is forced, consciously and/or subconsciously to question and struggle with what he did. But more importantly, why he did it. The “why” is so much more important in this story. There are multiple instances where James, through the themes and motifs used throughout the narrative, has a chance to learn and/or realize things about himself, thus having a choice to embrace or reject it. This serves as an overarching theme regarding the spectrum of different perceptions and points of view laid out via the interactions between all the characters. This is illustrated by Angela, and her fire otherworld, in contrast to Eddie and his freezer otherworld.
In Eddie's case, regarding James, he reflects James’ switch from husband and caregiver to murderer, and in Angela’s case, she reflects James’ failure to take care of the person he should have cared for the most.
In fact, it is most likely the cause of James being able to actually see and experience other peoples otherworlds. James has met Angela several times, but it is only when he garners a better understanding (perception/point of view) of Angela's plight, that he is able to see what Angela's otherworld is really like.
I am glad you agree that there is a lot more going on than just transactions regarding how and why James chooses the ultimate path he does. Having a better understanding of why things happen the way they do allows for a broader perspective and point of view. This opens new avenues that can be explored because there is a lot more depth to this story. It is why it sits in the upper echelon of not only the genre but of gaming itself.Disrupticon wrote: ↑09 Nov 2024In closing, I mean yeah... of course the other two characters in the triad exist to reveal certain characteristics about James - because that's basic storytelling 101. Characters in fiction fundamentally exist to reveal certain characteristics about their protagonists and vice versa. Angela and Eddie call out certain characteristics about James and know more than they're letting on. I'm not disputing their role as foil characters for James. But I think you're getting lost in the weeds a bit here when you start trying to connect Eddie to the Maria ending and other ideas like that. And while James seems to have a little bit of a misplaced savior complex that causes some dysfunction between the two other characters - each of the different endings are based on a certain course of action that James takes himself, and only by himself - given that he's the playable character.
Your latent point about Silent Hill 2 ultimately being about relationships - how understandings and misunderstandings happen - how we judge ourselves/are judged by others - and what that reveals about us has merit, but I can't help but like you're going about it in all the wrong way.
Once again, I'm not trying to talk down to you or stifle your ideas - just suggesting that maybe you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself. When theorizing, it's always worth slowing down and wondering "is this internally consistent, or am I stretching the limits of credulity here?".
All that I am laying out is what is given to us in the source material. Nothing that I have suggested is not directly implied by the source material itself. It is heavily suggested by the interactions and certain ongoing motifs that there is more going on than just luck and/or happenstance that James meets and interacts with everyone.
Take for instance the burning staircase scene. When James steps into Angela's otherworld, she does not see him for who he is. She sees him for who he reflects. She sees him as her mother. She sees him as the one person who would/should care for and protect her. At the same time, she knows the truth about him…..
And what happens....?
Once she looks directly into James’ eyes, she is shown a direct reflection of who her mother really is. A person who did not care for and protect the one person she should have. She sees James. She sees a person who did not want his wife around anymore because she was too much of a burden. She is shown that her mother never cared for her. This reflection serves as the trigger for her eventuality. It ensures that she knows that what she was searching for never existed in the 1st place.
This motif has a dual purpose in this scene, as Angela requests the knife back and suggests that James is saving it for himself when he refuses to give it back to her. James and Angelas interactions serve as the leitmotif in Silent Hill 2. As Angela is there to further James' self-reflection, in turn, James does the same thing for Angela.
Just because the other characters don’t have the same significance and impact to James than Angela does, does not make their roles any less important. This full-circle event stands as the fully realized illustration of what is happening in one degree or another with all of the characters and interactions. It’s exactly why we get the scene. It’s why James is not allowed to go up the staircase to try and help Angela again. Both characters are tied to each others eventuality, and neither cannot interfere with their conclusions.
So, in certain instances, James reflects, “is the same as” either Eddie or Angela. At the same time, other characters do the same thing for James in his search for who he is and why he did what he did.
I'm going to town either way.........
- Disrupticon
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Re: You're the Same as me.........
Edit: Alright - holistically and on a (somewhat) surface level I can certainly see how you'd come to the conclusion that Angela and Eddie represent other paths for James - giving up and letting your trauma consume you, and giving in and letting your delusions overtake you - with Angela and Eddie respectively. I do think we'd gotten a little too into the weeds on the details though, and you're trying to insert details that don't exactly map all that well (like comparing Eddie's bullying to Mary's lashing out due to her illness, for example), but yes, your general thesis tracks. I'd still say it's more to do with the pair being written as deliberate foils for James, rather than the town machinating to make their meetings intentional - I reject the idea that the town has a mind of its own or that it's acting in any ways other than the ways each character's minds make it act.
Leaving the rather lengthy post down below unedited for posterity's sake, but I'm not sure I have much more to expand on with regards to this discussion
No worries. Usually happy to exchange ideas in good faith - some times I just have less energy for it than others.
Going to try and address this succintly without getting bogged down in Paragraph Pong, though I may try and fail there as well.
This quote above is indeed the critical thesis for Silent Hill 2. James is staring into the abyss of his own mind and has to be willing to be stared back at by it. Which brings me to my next point...
These aren't characters that are exactly the picture of mental clarity here. At the very least I'd say Angela's a little more on to James than Eddie is - but she's also speaking from the perspective of an abuse victim that had been cast aside by her mother - being cast aside is all she knows, so that's naturally going to be what she assumes James' motives are in looking for Mary.
I'm not casting aspersions on your character here in saying this - but I'm not sure if you've ever cared for a family member that was rather ill and close to the end. That kind of existential cliff can bring a lot of feelings out in a person. This often manifests itself in wild mood swings, like it did with my father shortly before he passed, never once did it occur to me that whenever he'd let his emotions get the best of him that he was doing it just to be a prick.
There's a huge difference in the internal mental processes making themselves external in a person that coming to grips with their own mortality - and the people who'd made a routine out of bullying Eddie over his weight, leading to him eventually lashing out and falling deeper into persecutory delusions.
We're not told the entirety of what happened with Eddie, but it can safely be deduced that he killed his bully's dog in an act of revenge (as cited in Lost Memories), before shooting its owner in the leg. I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference here between Eddie killing a dog as retribution for his owner's bullying and James killing Mary. You could make the argument that both took their frustrations out on an innocent and defenseless subject, but the same can't be said for Angela's killing of Thomas and her brother.
It's worth noting that James also confesses that he killed Mary because he resented her and wanted her out of the picture in the Leave ending too, by the way. The Maria ending is not the result of James enacting retribution against someone he saw as his "abuser", it's the result of him preferring the ideal that he meets in Silent Hill to the life he once enjoyed with Mary. In the remake, there's actually an inverse of this in the Bliss ending where he prefers to live in a delusion of the life that he lived with Mary over the temptation that Maria hangs over him.
By this reasoning, Angela is much closer to Eddie than James is and and vice versa.
The issue is, Angela murdered her father and brother for the years of physical and sexual abuse they imposed on her - but I don't think anyone in their right mind would cast blame on her for what happened, and likewise - I don't think anyone would vindicate Eddie for going on a rampage murdering a dog and then maiming its owner. Since you keep trying so hard to correlate Eddie's bullying to Mary's lashing out (and to take it a step further, map this over the Maria ending), what of Angela's self defense killing of her father and her brother? Where does that fit in to things? Because once you try to introduce Eddie's crime into the mix and try and map it over James', you're going to inevitably have to so the same for Angela, which I do hope you're not unserious enough to try to do.
The circumstances around Eddiie's and Angela's crimes remain the same no matter what ending you get - so when you're trying analyze each ending in correlation with each character with any kind of granularity - you have to take the whole picture or not at all.
You do bring up an interesting point here though...
Conversely, the Labyrinth stage represents each character at their lowest and least mentally cogent, that's specifically why it takes the form that it does. Reality starts to break down and James, Eddies, and Angela's otherworlds all start bleeding into one another.
To close, I'm not disagreeing here that Eddie and Angela are deliberately crafted by the writers as foil characters for James, and that even, in some cases, certain lines of dialog may foreshadow certain endings (like Angela accusing James of casting Mary aside for someone else) - as you say, the theme of mirrors and duality are a constant motif in the game for a reason. Chiefly though, I just think your premises are flawed and take strong issue with them...
a) That Eddie and Angela act as servitors for James' mental enlightenment - given that's literally Maria and Pyramid Head's purpose.
b) That Angela and Eddie specifically correlate to each of the paths that James takes - Angela may carry strong associations with the In Water ending, and Laura with the Leave ending, but trying to map Eddie's motivations over the Maria ending is a gigantic reach - specifically with trying to frame Mary's behavior towards James in terms of "abuse" like the bullying Eddie experienced - made all the more murky when you look at Angela's self defense killings of Thmas Orosco and her brother.
c) That you keep flipping back and forth between the two conclusions that the endings all symbolize aspects of James' inner psyche, but then that Angela's and Eddie's paths are set and only James alone can bring about the conditions for each of the four endings.
Ending on a less charged note - you may find enjoyment in a topic that Ryan made years back. It theorizes that avoiding the In Water ending is the entire point of the game. It's a good read that holds up that you might find a lot to chew on.
I think I'm going to drop this for now lest we keep talking in circles, I've said mostly all I really need to.
Leaving the rather lengthy post down below unedited for posterity's sake, but I'm not sure I have much more to expand on with regards to this discussion
No worries. Usually happy to exchange ideas in good faith - some times I just have less energy for it than others.
Going to try and address this succintly without getting bogged down in Paragraph Pong, though I may try and fail there as well.
Struggling to reconcile this with your point that all of the characters are linked to each of the other endings.The difference here, regarding my theory, all revolves around the ultimate choice James makes in the end. This choice IMO is not influenced by the individuals he meets during his journey.
So either each character is linked to the other endings, or the other endings are a result of choices that James, and James alone follows.In stark contrast, James has multiple paths he himself chooses. Everyone is called because of the darkness in their hearts. With Eddie and Angela, their journeys are black and white so to speak. James' journey is as grey as it gets. James' path is designed in such a way, that meeting these characters reflects who he actually is, depending on his choices.
I keep touching upon this because you keep going on a tangent juxtaposing Eddie with the Maria ending for some reason. Given that each of the endings is more a result of James performing an in-game set of actions - it's kind of important to keep this front of mind with regards to your theory.It has nothing to do with other characters, such as Maria and Eddie interacting with each other. I am unsure why you keep touching upon this. I never suggested this, and it never happens. It’s impossible.
"He who is not bold enough to be stared at from across the abyss is not bold enough to stare into it himself"It has to do with who James is and why he did what he did. His search for the truth of who he really is, is reflected right back at him in certain instances depending upon which ending he gets, which path he chooses.
This quote above is indeed the critical thesis for Silent Hill 2. James is staring into the abyss of his own mind and has to be willing to be stared back at by it. Which brings me to my next point...
This is Eddie and Angela using deductive reasoning to understand the circumstances they find themselves in more than anything - when you're in a fucked up town experiencing unexplainable phenomena and the only person around that you encounter is also experiencing strange phenomena, conventional wisdom would say that this is probably happening for a reason. Neither Angela nor Eddie hold divine knowledge of why James is there aside from what he tells them. Given that they've both fallen into their own mental abyss, never to return - they have no reason to believe that James will either.Both Eddie and Angela use the exact same phrase to James. “You’re the same as me”
These aren't characters that are exactly the picture of mental clarity here. At the very least I'd say Angela's a little more on to James than Eddie is - but she's also speaking from the perspective of an abuse victim that had been cast aside by her mother - being cast aside is all she knows, so that's naturally going to be what she assumes James' motives are in looking for Mary.
This is you pigeonholing Eddie into the Maria ending again for some reason, just for the record. Which brings me to my next point...James watches Eddie become a killer after each interaction. Eddie embraces violence because of the abuse he has endured, justifying his actions.
A direct tie to this is confirmed during the Maria ending dialogue...
Uh... this is where you start to go wildly off track. Framing Mary lashing out at James towards the end of her life as "abuse", and the Maria ending as James seeing through some sort of retribution for that in the same lens that Eddie sought retribution for his bullying is um... a rather rich interpretation to put it as kindly as I can....as Mary accuses James that the reason he killed her was because he hated her, and James confirms this. James killed Mary because of the abuse he has endured. He has chosen violence to end the abuse, mirroring Eddie's tendencies.
I'm not casting aspersions on your character here in saying this - but I'm not sure if you've ever cared for a family member that was rather ill and close to the end. That kind of existential cliff can bring a lot of feelings out in a person. This often manifests itself in wild mood swings, like it did with my father shortly before he passed, never once did it occur to me that whenever he'd let his emotions get the best of him that he was doing it just to be a prick.
There's a huge difference in the internal mental processes making themselves external in a person that coming to grips with their own mortality - and the people who'd made a routine out of bullying Eddie over his weight, leading to him eventually lashing out and falling deeper into persecutory delusions.
We're not told the entirety of what happened with Eddie, but it can safely be deduced that he killed his bully's dog in an act of revenge (as cited in Lost Memories), before shooting its owner in the leg. I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference here between Eddie killing a dog as retribution for his owner's bullying and James killing Mary. You could make the argument that both took their frustrations out on an innocent and defenseless subject, but the same can't be said for Angela's killing of Thomas and her brother.
It's worth noting that James also confesses that he killed Mary because he resented her and wanted her out of the picture in the Leave ending too, by the way. The Maria ending is not the result of James enacting retribution against someone he saw as his "abuser", it's the result of him preferring the ideal that he meets in Silent Hill to the life he once enjoyed with Mary. In the remake, there's actually an inverse of this in the Bliss ending where he prefers to live in a delusion of the life that he lived with Mary over the temptation that Maria hangs over him.
I certanly wouldn't entirely disagree here *if you were to stop here* (though we never see Eddie in anything resembling a caregiver role). But you keep taking all of these wild swings and making these bizarre equivocations to try and fit things into places they don'tIn Eddie's case, regarding James, he reflects James’ switch from husband and caregiver to murderer, and in Angela’s case, she reflects James’ failure to take care of the person he should have cared for the most.
By this reasoning, Angela is much closer to Eddie than James is and and vice versa.
The issue is, Angela murdered her father and brother for the years of physical and sexual abuse they imposed on her - but I don't think anyone in their right mind would cast blame on her for what happened, and likewise - I don't think anyone would vindicate Eddie for going on a rampage murdering a dog and then maiming its owner. Since you keep trying so hard to correlate Eddie's bullying to Mary's lashing out (and to take it a step further, map this over the Maria ending), what of Angela's self defense killing of her father and her brother? Where does that fit in to things? Because once you try to introduce Eddie's crime into the mix and try and map it over James', you're going to inevitably have to so the same for Angela, which I do hope you're not unserious enough to try to do.
The circumstances around Eddiie's and Angela's crimes remain the same no matter what ending you get - so when you're trying analyze each ending in correlation with each character with any kind of granularity - you have to take the whole picture or not at all.
You do bring up an interesting point here though...
It does appear to be the case in the original game that James has a much more prescient view of what other people's Otherworlds look like when he gets *geographically* closer to the truth - but when he kills Eddie, this is the first time he starts to really question whether his memory is accurate with regards to when Mary had actually died - and he starts to question whether he's crazy much earlier in the remake, even though he's nowhere near discovering the truth.In fact, it is most likely the cause of James being able to actually see and experience other peoples otherworlds. James has met Angela several times, but it is only when he garners a better understanding (perception/point of view) of Angela's plight, that he is able to see what Angela's otherworld is really like.
Conversely, the Labyrinth stage represents each character at their lowest and least mentally cogent, that's specifically why it takes the form that it does. Reality starts to break down and James, Eddies, and Angela's otherworlds all start bleeding into one another.
To close, I'm not disagreeing here that Eddie and Angela are deliberately crafted by the writers as foil characters for James, and that even, in some cases, certain lines of dialog may foreshadow certain endings (like Angela accusing James of casting Mary aside for someone else) - as you say, the theme of mirrors and duality are a constant motif in the game for a reason. Chiefly though, I just think your premises are flawed and take strong issue with them...
a) That Eddie and Angela act as servitors for James' mental enlightenment - given that's literally Maria and Pyramid Head's purpose.
b) That Angela and Eddie specifically correlate to each of the paths that James takes - Angela may carry strong associations with the In Water ending, and Laura with the Leave ending, but trying to map Eddie's motivations over the Maria ending is a gigantic reach - specifically with trying to frame Mary's behavior towards James in terms of "abuse" like the bullying Eddie experienced - made all the more murky when you look at Angela's self defense killings of Thmas Orosco and her brother.
c) That you keep flipping back and forth between the two conclusions that the endings all symbolize aspects of James' inner psyche, but then that Angela's and Eddie's paths are set and only James alone can bring about the conditions for each of the four endings.
Ending on a less charged note - you may find enjoyment in a topic that Ryan made years back. It theorizes that avoiding the In Water ending is the entire point of the game. It's a good read that holds up that you might find a lot to chew on.
I think I'm going to drop this for now lest we keep talking in circles, I've said mostly all I really need to.
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Re: You're the Same as me.........
please delete
Last edited by Utherworld on 25 Nov 2024, edited 1 time in total.
I'm going to town either way.........
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- Just Passing Through
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 09 Sep 2024
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Re: You're the Same as me.........
please delete
Last edited by Utherworld on 25 Nov 2024, edited 1 time in total.
I'm going to town either way.........
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- Just Passing Through
- Posts: 102
- Joined: 09 Sep 2024
- Gender: Male
Re: You're the Same as me.........
Many thanks and respect here Disrupticon. It is rare to see such open-mindedness in discussions nowadays.
In regards to the town having “a mind of its own” Again, I pull straight from the Book of Lost Memories seen below:
-Those who have guilt are summoned.
-The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.
-As with the scrawled words at the bar, it seems that in the town of Silent Hill holes open up here and there and lure those who hold darkness in their hearts.
-It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.
-As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.
-In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to peoples' innermost thoughts.
^ All the underlined words describe a force that perceives, beckons, summons, lures, and shows elements of people’s unconscious minds.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27130
My friend, my deepest condolences for your loss. Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with this harsh reality of life. I will not list things here, if you wish, PM me and I can tell you about my own experiences.
Edit: Alright - holistically and on a (somewhat) surface level I can certainly see how you'd come to the conclusion that Angela and Eddie represent other paths for James - giving up and letting your trauma consume you, and giving in and letting your delusions overtake you - with Angela and Eddie respectively. I do think we'd gotten a little too into the weeds on the details though, and you're trying to insert details that don't exactly map all that well (like comparing Eddie's bullying to Mary's lashing out due to her illness, for example), but yes, your general thesis tracks. I'd still say it's more to do with the pair being written as deliberate foils for James, rather than the town machinating to make their meetings intentional - I reject the idea that the town has a mind of its own or that it's acting in any ways other than the ways each character's minds make it act.
Leaving the rather lengthy post down below unedited for posterity's sake, but I'm not sure I have much more to expand on with regards to this discussion
In regards to the town having “a mind of its own” Again, I pull straight from the Book of Lost Memories seen below:
-Those who have guilt are summoned.
-The town calls to those who bear the weight of some crime and shows them what is in their hearts.
-As with the scrawled words at the bar, it seems that in the town of Silent Hill holes open up here and there and lure those who hold darkness in their hearts.
-It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.
-As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds.
-In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to peoples' innermost thoughts.
^ All the underlined words describe a force that perceives, beckons, summons, lures, and shows elements of people’s unconscious minds.
I offer up another thread I have created below, “The significance of Mirrors” with a general view of things."He who is not bold enough to be stared at from across the abyss is not bold enough to stare into it himself"
This quote above is indeed the critical thesis for Silent Hill 2. James is staring into the abyss of his own mind and has to be willing to be stared back at by it. Which brings me to my next point...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27130
I'm not casting aspersions on your character here in saying this - but I'm not sure if you've ever cared for a family member that was rather ill and close to the end. That kind of existential cliff can bring a lot of feelings out in a person. This often manifests itself in wild mood swings, like it did with my father shortly before he passed, never once did it occur to me that whenever he'd let his emotions get the best of him that he was doing it just to be a prick.
My friend, my deepest condolences for your loss. Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with this harsh reality of life. I will not list things here, if you wish, PM me and I can tell you about my own experiences.
I'm going to town either way.........