You're the Same as me.........

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Utherworld
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Utherworld »

The Adversary wrote: 27 Dec 2024 Just for reference: Dahlia isn't an alien robot. She's just a robot. I'm not sure where the alien part came from.

I also have more to say on the matter, just can't at the moment because my house is on fire.
I hope everything is ok
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Disrupticon
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Disrupticon »

The Adversary wrote: 27 Dec 2024 Just for reference: Dahlia isn't an alien robot. She's just a robot. I'm not sure where the alien part came from.

I also have more to say on the matter, just can't at the moment because my house is on fire.
Too late. It's been Alien robot Dahlia for 15 years now. The precedent is set.

Hope things aren't too serious on your end. Best wishes there.
Last edited by Disrupticon on 28 Dec 2024, edited 1 time in total.
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The Adversary
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by The Adversary »

The house is still on fire, but things are all right. Thank you. <3

And, no, the precedent was when I created the Dahlia is a Robot theory back in 1999/2000. Others have since adopted it and made her an alien for some reason.

Just another case of trying to prove me wrong with the theory I posited. . . . le sigh

(And, yeah, I created the Dahlia is a Robot theory. Unfortunately its origins were wiped with the rest of this forum as well as the forum I initially presented it: www.silenthill2.com. That's where it started. Please don't correct me on the thing I created.)

/classicMMY
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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.

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Disrupticon
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Disrupticon »

I mean, you might be its progenitor but since common parlance has shifted to Alien Robot Dahlia in the years since - the author is dead and we have killed him.

Best of luck with the house again.
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by The Adversary »

The author is dead when I'm buried or creamed or whatever people do. Thanks, though.
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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.

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Disrupticon
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Disrupticon »

Utherworld wrote: 27 Dec 2024
Disrupticon wrote: 27 Dec 2024 No, no part of that loop theory will come into play for me.

I'm not an evangelist by nature, so you can take or leave the loop theory as you please. But I'm not going to assume it's just a given (because it's really not). Just like I'm not going to assume it's a given that Dahlia is an alien robot, or that Silent Hill 4 is about circumcision.

The story perfectly satisfies me with one start, and one ending (of a possible four). Otherwise there's no purpose to half of the stuff that happens to James, and the reason for Pyramid Head and Maria's existence effectively becomes nullified.
Understood. So we are looking at things holistically here.
Given that there are significant deviations between the original game and its remake - it's best to take a granular look at the two. Compare and contrast. The remake was clearly made with subverting* your understanding of the original in mind, but there's a lot of elements that Bloober bring into closer focus that Team Silent merely touched upon in their version.

(*Yes, I know)

I continue to stand firm in the belief that you can tell a story detailing the cyclical nature of trauma and abuse without literally implicating its setting in an unbreakable temporal loop. Even if we're to look at the story as a series of events in an unbreakable loop - we can at least look at one loop in isolation - how its disparate elements interact with one another and why certain events play out the way they do. Things don't just happen in the story and setting for no reason.
Good luck with that.
Not sure where the hostility comes from - but I'll let you take a breather and focus on your priorities at hand.
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Chris Sunderland
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Chris Sunderland »

I like to think James is stuck in a cycle until he is sorta tricked into doing the Rebirth ending by the nefarious forces of the town. Alas, much like Pet Cemetery, Walter Sullivan and any other Occult resurrection, it's not going to be what he thinks it is.
I also like the loop theory as well but I understand why some may not. I think the theory's heavily implied nature in the remake and recent popularity in the fandom have had the effect of people rallying against it. Like when your favorite punk band goes mainstream. I'll say SH2 can be all of these things and none of them and I hope it stays that way.
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Utherworld »

Chris Sunderland wrote: 14 Jan 2025 I like to think James is stuck in a cycle until he is sorta tricked into doing the Rebirth ending by the nefarious forces of the town. Alas, much like Pet Cemetery, Walter Sullivan and any other Occult resurrection, it's not going to be what he thinks it is.
I also like the loop theory as well but I understand why some may not. I think the theory's heavily implied nature in the remake and recent popularity in the fandom have had the effect of people rallying against it. Like when your favorite punk band goes mainstream. I'll say SH2 can be all of these things and none of them and I hope it stays that way.
When it comes to the loop theory, things are not as neat and tidy as some people hope. I understand the newfound popularity but it leaves me to believe that a lot of people never really understood that certain endings heavily implied that a loop was a definite possibility in the original game. I mean, there is a reason for all the “James corpses” lying around. There was a reason Maria started coughing in the Maria ending. Etc…etc….

I tend to believe that the different endings are different versions of James because of different choices as some would see as what "could be". Evidence of this is all of the "James corpses" he finds. This is not new to the Remake. It was heavily implied in the original.

James being called becomes a metaphysical journey he must travel to discover what type of person he really is. His choices define his path. He can let his delusions overtake him, he can let his trauma consume him. He can choose to believe in a resurrection. All to no avail.

James is called and partakes in this journey. Depending on the choices he makes it may be reset back to the beginning because he ultimately has not completed what the calling is really all about. It’s about self-reflection. James is on a journey of self-reflection, as he pursues the truth. The truth of what type of person he really is.
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Chris Sunderland »

I feel like there has to be some reason the Town wants to "punish" James as well. What's the point of a big reveal when James came to town well aware of what he has done? It feels as if these characters are in some sort of purgatory, some sort of hell that they most likely won't escape. Does this torture of people like James ignite the forces behind the power of the town, give it strength?
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Utherworld »

Chris Sunderland wrote: 15 Jan 2025 I feel like there has to be some reason the Town wants to "punish" James as well.
BoLM quote
“Power of the Town

Just what is the effect of the mysterious power of this town that was revered as a sacred place?

Originally Silent Hill was a holy place to the area's former inhabitants. It would seem that although the power of the town was not evil in nature, due to a number of factors including the spread of an epidemic and executions at the prison, the power that this place held was greatly distorted. Furthermore, due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.”

In regard to punishment. It is James himself that believes he deserves to be punished.

BoLM quote
“Red Pyramid Thing
Area
Apartment building, hotel
Character
With Great Knife and spear, he stalks Maria unrelentingly
Metaphor
"Pyramid head." Takes the appearance of an executioner of times past, but is actually incarnated from the part of James' consciousness that feels that he deserves punishment.”
Chris Sunderland wrote: 15 Jan 2025 What's the point of a big reveal when James came to town well aware of what he has done?
If you are referring to James “looping”. James would be starting off at square one each and every time, believing that Mary died 3 years ago.
Chris Sunderland wrote: 15 Jan 2025 It feels as if these characters are in some sort of purgatory, some sort of hell that they most likely won't escape. Does this torture of people like James ignite the forces behind the power of the town, give it strength?
Silent Hill seems to work like Gehinnom in Judaism. Gehinnom is a figurative term for the place where the wicked are punished or purified after death. In Silent Hill 2, James, Eddie, and Angela are called because they bear weight for their crimes.

BoLM quote:

“But the power of the town is due to the large-scale shift to the otherworld that occurred in the first game, the town has become a great catalyst for the manifestation of peoples' unconscious minds. It appears to have become a place that beckons to those who hold darkness in their hearts.”

In this thread, I am making the argument that all of the outcomes James has available to him are tied to him meeting who he does, and, inturn, learning things about himself.

That’s why both Angela and Eddie tell James, “You’re the same as me…”
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Chris Sunderland »

Very good. It also makes sense for Angela, who by any measure, isn't guilty of anything but defending herself but she believes she deserves to everything and that doesn't change by the end of the game.
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Utherworld
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Utherworld »

Chris Sunderland wrote: 16 Jan 2025 Very good. It also makes sense for Angela, who by any measure, isn't guilty of anything but defending herself but she believes she deserves to everything and that doesn't change by the end of the game.
Angela is by far and away the largest catalyst for my theory. When James steps into Angela's otherworld during the staircase scene, she does not see him for who he is. She sees him for who he reflects. She sees him as her mother. She sees him as the one person who would/should care for and protect her. At the same time, she knows the truth about him…..

And what happens....?

Once she looks directly into James’ eyes, she is shown a direct reflection of who her mother really is. A person who did not care for and protect the one person she should have. She sees James. She sees a person who did not want his wife around anymore because she was too much of a burden. She is shown that her mother never cared for her. This reflection serves as the trigger for her eventuality. It ensures that she knows that what she was searching for never existed in the 1st place.

This motif has a dual purpose in this scene, as Angela requests the knife back and suggests that James is saving it for himself when he refuses to give it back to her. James and Angelas interactions serve as the leitmotif in Silent Hill 2. As Angela is there to further James' self-reflection, in turn, James does the same thing for Angela.

Just because the other characters don’t have the same significance and impact to James than Angela does, does not make their roles any less important. This full-circle event stands as the fully realized illustration of what is happening to one degree or another with all of the characters and interactions. It’s exactly why we get the scene. It’s why James is not allowed to go up the staircase to try and help Angela again. Both characters are tied to each others eventuality, and neither cannot interfere with their conclusions.

So, in certain instances, James reflects, “is the same as” either Eddie or Angela. At the same time, other characters do the same thing for James in his search for who he is and why he did what he did.

You may enjoy another thread I created viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27130
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Re: You're the Same as me.........

Post by Disrupticon »

Once again, the town is not punishing James. James is punishing himself.

It's just that the town is turning that inward need for punishment into an outward staging ground for that punishment to take place. This punishment does not exist if James does not want it for himself.

We also shouldn't be taking the words of people that are currently in the middle of a mental breakdown at face value.
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