Who created the Otherworld in Silent Hill 2?

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Lemex
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Post by Lemex »

The Cult has nothing to do with SH2 does it?
I played it looking for refrences to the Cult and found none.
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Post by mrow »

Nope, the Cult doesn't have much to do with SH2. The Cult is always plotting and trying to mess with the Otherworld to benefit their cause, but I assume the events of SH2 take place during a quiet period where the Cult is not messing with the Otherworld. I think that the Otherworld we see in Silent Hill 2 is what it's like in it's natural state, when it's not being modified by the collective belief of the Cult.
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Post by Hjartu »

Lemex wrote:The Cult has nothing to do with SH2 does it?
I played it looking for refrences to the Cult and found none.
Nah, there are slight references, especially in the Rebirth ending.
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Post by The Adversary »

The Rebirth ending doesn't mention The Order either: it's entirely absent from Silent Hill 2. It, instead, focuses on the natives' religion that The Order is derived from, but not The Order.
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Post by Cyzyk »

In a sense, the Rebirth ending is about what the Order wishes it was. Which in theory makes James a sort of one-man Order. A degree of irony to the fact one very unstable and not particularly bright man could achieve some of their aims better than they.

Which is rather disturbing when you think about it in terms of people who start their own religions, like Claus Epp.
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Post by The Adversary »

>the Rebirth ending is about what the Order wishes it was.
No, not really. This ritual doesn't have to do with The Order. It's the natives' ceremony, as explained in The Book of Lost Memories.
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Post by Ryantology »

mrow wrote:Nope, the Cult doesn't have much to do with SH2. The Cult is always plotting and trying to mess with the Otherworld to benefit their cause, but I assume the events of SH2 take place during a quiet period where the Cult is not messing with the Otherworld. I think that the Otherworld we see in Silent Hill 2 is what it's like in it's natural state, when it's not being modified by the collective belief of the Cult.
Actually, with the exception of Silent Hill 3, we don't ever see any evidence of The Order deliberately manifesting the Otherside for any reason. Furthermore, the Otherside is not a constant or in a consistent state of being, since it is always a product of a certain person's mind, and therefore there is no 'natural' state. For example, Alessa's manifestation in Silent Hill 1 begins and ends within that game. James' manifestation ten years later is wholly separate from it, and the two are not at all related. None of the four manifestations we have seen have come from the same source, and all four of them are markedly different in appearance as a result.

As the unnamed Brookhaven Doctor notes in Silent Hill 2, the Otherside is a place anyone can manifest, anywhere and at any time their mental conditions are ripe. The Order's religious practices have them more aware of this concept than the average person, but they are in no way controlling it except in individual cases, just like anyone else.
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Post by mrow »

Well, Silent Hill 3 is the only one where a Cult member is messing around with the Otherworld, but the manipulations of the Otherworld in both Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill 4 are Cult related. Alessa was going to be a tool the Cult was going to use to birth God, but she went rogue, and Walter used the 21 sacrements ritual, a ritual the Cult had discovered.

And what I meant about Silent Hill 2's Otherworld being the natural state of the Otherworld is that in Silent Hill 1, 3, and 4 the Otherworld is being purposefully manipulated, while in Silent Hill 2 it's what it's supposed to be, a landscape of the mind that sort of allows people to confront their inner demons.
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Post by Ryantology »

mrow wrote:Well, Silent Hill 3 is the only one where a Cult member is messing around with the Otherworld, but the manipulations of the Otherworld in both Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill 4 are Cult related. Alessa was going to be a tool the Cult was going to use to birth God, but she went rogue, and Walter used the 21 sacrements ritual, a ritual the Cult had discovered.
It was said in contrast to your statement that the Order somehow harnesses the Otherside for their own means. There's very little of that in actuality. The other instances are, as you just said, elements outside of the Order's control (and in Alessa's case, in direct combat with the Order's goals).
And what I meant about Silent Hill 2's Otherworld being the natural state of the Otherworld is that in Silent Hill 1, 3, and 4 the Otherworld is being purposefully manipulated, while in Silent Hill 2 it's what it's supposed to be, a landscape of the mind that sort of allows people to confront their inner demons.
Except that isn't it's 'natural state' either. The Otherside has no natural state. The Doctor's Memo made it pretty clear that the Otherside can pretty much be anything a person wants it to be, depending on their psychological state and mental needs of the moment. In the case of the patient described within the memo, it's a place where he can escape the tortures of his real life, a place where he can be peaceful and happy.
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Post by BloodRedLion »

Well, Silent Hill 3 is the only one where a Cult member is messing around with the Otherworld, but the manipulations of the Otherworld in both Silent Hill 1 and Silent Hill 4 are Cult related.

Not really. They're still the production of the individual's mind. That's all that matters in terms of the form the Otherside takes.
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Post by RNZL »

I always thought everything looked differently to different people. The world James sees is derived from his own psychosis but occasionally other people can see it/leak into his. The way Angela says the world always looks like its on fire to her, when she calls the bed monster Daddy. We don't see Eddie's world but I imagine the monsters/other people mock him. I've actually thought it would be cool to see someone like James or Maria say something to Eddie and have it come out as an insult like:

"You can't do that Eddie!" morphing in his world into

"Don't even try you fat pig!"

The best example though is Laura. She's innocent, she doesn't see monsters and moves around town without any trouble.
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Post by Takezo »

A few people are pretty close to the truth while a lot of others are pure hit and miss, so I'll help explain.

The Otherworld in Silent Hill (1) is Alessa's "hell", however, this in turn does not equal the same for the rest of the series. In Silent Hill 2, which takes place (memory is a bit foggy) 14-16 years after the events of Silent Hill, the dark forces at work behind the first game have become so strong and permeate to such a degree that -anyone's- "nightmares" become reality.

Thus, what James sees is not the same as what Angela sees, or Eddie. Angela says towards the end "It's like this all the time", referencing the fires on the staircase. That was -her- Silent Hill experience. As to if it "looked the same" to everyone, again, not the case.

Laura as mentioned, be it for innocence or just not there to be "punished", is unable to see any of the monsters that James does. To further this, in Silent Hill 3, Vincent's statement to Heather is "Oh, so they look like MONSTERS ot you!" is another indication that the "Silent Hill experience" is different for each person after the events of the first game.
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Post by Xev »

Takezo wrote:A few people are pretty close to the truth while a lot of others are pure hit and miss, so I'll help explain.

The Otherworld in Silent Hill (1) is Alessa's "hell", however, this in turn does not equal the same for the rest of the series. In Silent Hill 2, which takes place (memory is a bit foggy) 14-16 years after the events of Silent Hill, the dark forces at work behind the first game have become so strong and permeate to such a degree that -anyone's- "nightmares" become reality.
I didnt think otherworld to be so personal but rather a characteristic of the town itself?
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Post by toadstool »

I didnt think otherworld to be so personal but rather a characteristic of the town itself?
you mean like the history of silent hill?
it seems to tie in with james pyramid head.
its form mocks that of the executioners that were in or near the town.
if james saw the picture or knew of it before, it could only manifest its existence to him because he acknowledged its existence.
if thats not the case, then silent hills history comes to life, perhaps in d ifferent forms according to the persons pysche.
whether they know of its history or not.
so i assume he must of known.
The Otherworld in Silent Hill (1) is Alessa's "hell", however, this in turn does not equal the same for the rest of the series. In Silent Hill 2, which takes place (memory is a bit foggy) 14-16 years after the events of Silent Hill, the dark forces at work behind the first game have become so strong and permeate to such a degree that -anyone's- "nightmares" become reality.
i believe that those who seek out alessa, or antthing involving the cult will see the monsters and visions.
james didnt know of alessa, but was brought to silent hill to relive his guilt and see the truth.this is known already, i know that, but he was lured for another reason, unlike the other games that involved alessa
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Post by The Adversary »

>which takes place (memory is a bit foggy) 14-16 years after the events of Silent Hill
Eleven.
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Post by Adrasteia »

Well, the Otherworld of 4 comes to life for people who know very little, if anything, about either SH's history or the cult (Eileen, random other tenants, Henry). If it looks different to everyone, then maybe what Walter sees is not the same as what the player characters see. But what I think is particularly alarming is the supposition that the Otherworld can come alive for anyone if their mental state is in the correct location (mentioned somewhere above). So if this is true, then is the person actually in the other plane of existence, or are they just viewing the world differently? Like seeing their neighbors as monsters? How can someone seeing this place ever be completely sure that they are doing the right thing by hurting things that appear to attack them? Maybe the moral choice IS to die. Or maybe it doesn't matter and the survival instinct overrules that consideration, so whatever you see that looks threatening needs to be killed regardless if it's an illusion or not.

Edit: sorry for the retardation, I'm really tired. Henry DID go there. I'm not sure how much he knew about the town's history/cult, though...
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Post by toadstool »

Well, the Otherworld of 4 comes to life for people who know very little, if anything, about either SH's history or the cult (Eileen, random other tenants, Henry). If it looks different to everyone, then maybe what Walter sees is not the same as what the player characters see.
didnt walternow eileen( isnt she the one who gave him the doll when she was little?
if so ,then thats how she would be involved
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Post by Adrasteia »

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean she knows anything about SH or the cult, so if those elements are necessary to create the Otherworld for someone, it doesn't make sense that she sees it.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

But what I think is particularly alarming is the supposition that the Otherworld can come alive for anyone if their mental state is in the correct location (mentioned somewhere above). So if this is true, then is the person actually in the other plane of existence, or are they just viewing the world differently? Like seeing their neighbors as monsters? How can someone seeing this place ever be completely sure that they are doing the right thing by hurting things that appear to attack them? Maybe the moral choice IS to die. Or maybe it doesn't matter and the survival instinct overrules that consideration, so whatever you see that looks threatening needs to be killed regardless if it's an illusion or not.
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Post by Fan from Silent Hill »

So if this is true, then is the person actually in the other plane of existence, or are they just viewing the world differently? Like seeing their neighbors as monsters? How can someone seeing this place ever be completely sure that they are doing the right thing by hurting things that appear to attack them?
I think that a new realm, or a sub-dimension, is created every time AND for every person. So they aren't killing real people. Except for Heather (but what keeps the Order's members in the same plane of existence with her?).

But it still ain't so clear (to me), why for example Henry & Eileen go together and fight the same monsters. Basically see the same things. Maybe Eileen doesn't see it the same way just hits it either way...

Elaborate please.
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