Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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The Adversary
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by The Adversary »

That's what I've been saying. It's also peculiar how so many people are demanding answers from him when at the same time these same people have been ridiculing new developers/writers for answering too many questions. . . . Funny, that.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Augophthalmoses »

People seem to be missing the big picture. For him to be designing monsters with symbolic meaning in mind, he would have to be privy to the storyline in the first place. No SH game's story is ever made up by just one person. Certain things, yeah, he seem to be fuzzy in his memory. But here, he plainly says no. Seems pretty final and sure of himself.

And not to be rude, but I'd rather take his word for it over any of the conjecture made for this theory. There's never been definitive proof for this theory. Just people coming with assumptions and putting interpretations into things that are either vague or just not explained at all.

Plus, the fact that neither James or Laura never once mention anything about Mary staying at Brookhaven tells me the people who wrote the story never had that in mind. If she had, it likely would have been made it a bit more clear like it was for Rosewater Park and Lakeview Hotel.

The diary on the roof, for instance, I always felt was related more to James than Mary considering the suicidal thoughts within it and the fact said diary is a trigger for the In Water ending.

Personally, it just seems like people wanting to disregard what he says just because of a lingering possibility that an adored theory might (gasp!) turn out to be untrue.

It is a mere theory after all. It's not like it was ever definitively proven to be true.

I mean I could come with a dozen personal fan theories that I personally liked. Just because the developers didn't have the foresight to include all sorts of preemptive MGS long winded explanation about every little detail in each characters personal lives, personality, etc. doesn't my fan theory is suddenly indisputable fact just because there's nothing referencing it.

I could invent a fan theory about how none of the characters are real and are the result of Silent Hill just manifesting people, giving them memories, and toying around with their emotions.

There's nothing in the game that refutes that theory. But it doesn't magically means its true either just because the developers didn't anticipate a goofy idea like that one.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by AuraTwilight »

People seem to be missing the big picture. For him to be designing monsters with symbolic meaning in mind, he would have to be privy to the storyline in the first place.
Too bad none of the monsters symbolize Mary staying in any specific place whatsoever except for a vague notion of "hospitals at some point". Show me a Nurse with a "St. Caren Hospital" employee badge and maybe you'll be on to something.
Plus, the fact that neither James or Laura never once mention anything about Mary staying at Brookhaven tells me the people who wrote the story never had that in mind. If she had, it likely would have been made it a bit more clear like it was for Rosewater Park and Lakeview Hotel.
Why would Laura know, and why would James comment on it pre-plot twist? Neither of them are in any position to really comment.
Personally, it just seems like people wanting to disregard what he says just because of a lingering possibility that an adored theory might (gasp!) turn out to be untrue.
Personally, I just disregard him because shit like "Mary was in the back seat" when we can see part of it out of the corner of our eye is unbelievably retarded.

I'm also extremely disenchanted with the original creators of Silent Hill in general.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by PoemOfTheLastMoment »

The original creators of all people...would know about the little details in the game...Even then, you're more than welcome to have your own theories about the little details in the past Silent Hill games.
Now I Know, The Real Reason Why I Came To This Town....I Wonder....What Was I Afraid Of? Without You..I've Got Nothing...Now, We Can Be Together Again.....Mary.....
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Squarehead »

I'm glad this theory got disproven (with some reservations) because this thread can serve as a perfect example that no matter how well you rationalize a Silent Hill theory and how good your reputation is among the community, the theory still shouldn't be taken for granted, and other interpretations are just as valid. Silent Hill 2 is so full of vague details that many things (i almost want to say anything) the developers didn't intend can be rationalized to make a convincing argument for. Next time someone is absolutely convinced of some theory, link to this thread.
The Adversary wrote:That's what I've been saying. It's also peculiar how so many people are demanding answers from him when at the same time these same people have been ridiculing new developers/writers for answering too many questions. . . . Funny, that.
To me it seems that because of your exceptional dedication to the game and to the forum and because of your skillful argumentation, your opinion is held in such a high regard by the community in general that your theories are a little bit like having the answers shoved on the community. While it may be a shame your interpretation (which IMHO would've made Brookhaven a more interesting location) got shot down for a definitive answer, it may make this forum more open to different possibilities on other issues instead of people accepting the popular one so easily.

Also, as far as i know the newer games are considered inferior and the different team not much of an authority. Accepting their answers is like accepting fan fiction. Their motivation for answering the questions is also questionable. At least this Ito guy was actually involved with Silent Hill 2.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Augophthalmoses »

Also, as far as i know the newer games are considered inferior and the different team not much of an authority. Accepting their answers is like accepting fan fiction. Their motivation for answering the questions is also questionable.
At this rate, it doesn't matter if you're Team Silent or not because no matter what any person involved with Silent Hill does or say, you're still going to have fans crying their asses off about something. Even if Owaku or Toyama themselves started coming forward and confirming and disproving various things about the games.

That's how it's always been and always will be.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by The Adversary »

Who's crying? The only person I see bitching and moaning at this point is you. You claim adherents of the theory were adamantly pushing it down people's throats, demanding it was "fact" when no one did, and then you come in here and start pushing your own words down people's throats, demanding it as fact.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Augophthalmoses »

The Adversary wrote:You claim adherents of the theory were adamantly pushing it down people's throats, demanding it was "fact" when no one did
http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=560
The Adversary wrote:>The burden of proof is on you to prove it to be true.<
It's my theory, and I've done a pretty good job at proving it for the past decade that people had to contact one of the game's designers in an attempt to prove it false.
While you didn't exactly use the precise phrase of "I think my theory is fact!" you more or less heavily implied it within that post of yours,

You might want to pay attention more to the way you post because with all the other posts you've made in this topic, you'd have to be lying if you said weren't thinking of your theory as being indisputable fact in your head. It's all about reading people.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by JuriDawn »

SHHF New Year's Resolution: Post Friendlier
I wrote:If you feel offended by something you can't quite put your finger on ("It's not what he said, it's how he said it.") you're probably reading too much into the post. Let it go and calmly move on.
It's way too easy to be wrong about what someone else is thinking, which makes it a silly thing to argue about. Let's please stick to a discussion of facts. If you have nothing new to contribute or no further counterpoint to make, it's okay to not have the last word. That goes for everyone.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Oddish »

Hmmm... big extensive topic about how Mary stayed in Brookhaven. Big extensive topic about wghy she did not stay in Brookhaven. But is there a topic for people who just plain don't give a crap whether she did or didn't? :?
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Squarehead »

Oddish wrote:Hmmm... big extensive topic about how Mary stayed in Brookhaven. Big extensive topic about wghy she did not stay in Brookhaven. But is there a topic for people who just plain don't give a crap whether she did or didn't? :?
We should just have a forum for people who don't care about Silent Hill whatsoever.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Oddish »

There are probably about a billion of them: non-SH sites scattered about the Internet.

Since Brookhaven is a mental hospital, and since Mary's memories of Silent Hill seem positive (a sojurn at an institution would likely not be), I don't think she did. But what if she did, really? I don't get why it's so important.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by KingCrimson »

Well, it would leave some unsightly loose ends. I don't know about any of you, but I've never heard of a peaceful hospice for the terminally ill being built just downstairs from a row of padded cells housing violent psychopaths.

Any time the player is allowed to explore a place that relates to Mary, the game lets us know. The park and the hotel are places we know Mary has been. The apartments and the bowling alley are places she hasn't been. It would be poor writing indeed if, despite reminding us multiple times of Mary's fondness for her "special place" whenever the context presented itself, the developers chose not to draw attention to the room where she lay dying.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by AuraTwilight »

Well, it would leave some unsightly loose ends. I don't know about any of you, but I've never heard of a peaceful hospice for the terminally ill being built just downstairs from a row of padded cells housing violent psychopaths.
Buildings can be repurposed over the years, and none of those "violent psychopaths" necessarily stayed in that hospital in the same DECADE as a peaceful hospice patient.

Or that the specific "violent psychopaths" James learns about even exist, given how much they eerily seem to mirror him.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by Augophthalmoses »

Adding a patient like Mary to a hospital primarily for more violent, mentally challenged people doesn't really seem like a good or logical idea. There's nothing peaceful about being in a hospital and her depression is a side effect of her disease. Depression upon the death bed isn't exactly uncommon (or signs of having mental problems since it's a serious situation for anybody). Given the fact that hospitals deal with dying patients on a frequent basis, they're going to be trained and equipped to deal with such behavior.

So sending her to Brookhaven for depression wouldn't make much sense. It would also contradict what Mary said in her letter at the end of the game. The segment where Mary tells James she's being released from the hospital not because she's getting any better, but because it would be her last chance to spend time with him.

When you really think about how the theory would work with the context set up with the story of the rest of the game, you realize it has too many holes that the player would have to fill in themselves and too many things to invent alternate meanings about to the point that it becomes evident it was never an idea held in mind when the story was being developed. It opens up more questions than providing answers which is ultimately why a lot of people feel it wouldn't work in the context of the story.

The other idea that she simply spent in her time in the other hospital she was in and Brookhaven is just a thematic only level is the more logical, less complicated scenario.
Much like how the MDT is a much more logical, less messy idea over everything taking place in one solid plane of existence.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

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Adding a patient like Mary to a hospital primarily for more violent, mentally challenged people doesn't really seem like a good or logical idea.
Maria's spoken to people who've been dead for many, many years. Time isn't really clear here. There's no problem keeping her in a building that once housed psychopaths if they are not currently there.

Even if there were, it's been done before. This is precisely why buildings have multiple wings. And that's assuming Mary isn't a special case to begin with, given how much Silent Hill in of itself could've helped her condition. I can see strings being pulled.
So sending her to Brookhaven for depression wouldn't make much sense. It would also contradict what Mary said in her letter at the end of the game. The segment where Mary tells James she's being released from the hospital not because she's getting any better, but because it would be her last chance to spend time with him.
In the same letter, she's says she's alone in Silent Hill, waiting for him to come to see her.

She's certainly not hanging out at Heaven's Night.
When you really think about how the theory would work with the context set up with the story of the rest of the game, you realize it has too many holes that the player would have to fill in themselves and too many things to invent alternate meanings about to the point that it becomes evident it was never an idea held in mind when the story was being developed. It opens up more questions than providing answers which is ultimately why a lot of people feel it wouldn't work in the context of the story.
This is completely unsubstantiated. Please do not assume that your logic is inherently more correct or obvious than others, given that you completely neglected one of the most important passages in the entire game.
The other idea that she simply spent in her time in the other hospital she was in and Brookhaven is just a thematic only level is the more logical, less complicated scenario.
It's really not. It may be less complicated, but it has plot holes.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

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Maria's spoken to people who've been dead for many, many years. Time isn't really clear here. There's no problem keeping her in a building that once housed psychopaths if they are not currently there.
Which is why I said this theory opens up more questions than it does answers. Because then you'd have to figure out when exactly Mary stayed there, whether the hospital didn't have psychopaths or not, when the lack of psychopaths first occurred, and so on. Things the game never goes in depth about. As I said, it's another gap the player would have to fill and even then there's nothing in the game or elsewhere that would validate the answer you could come up with.
Even if there were, it's been done before. This is precisely why buildings have multiple wings. And that's assuming Mary isn't a special case to begin with, given how much Silent Hill in of itself could've helped her condition. I can see strings being pulled.
Except this is ignoring the common sense that regular hospitals are equipped and trained for the kind of depression and mental anguish that accommodates a person's death bed. Even if this sort of thing has been done before, there's no evidence anywhere in the game suggesting Mary requested to be transferred there. Just random quotes pulled out of context with people trying to put alternate meanings onto them. Furthermore, the game doesn't really delve that far into her mental state beyond the fact that she was merely depressed and lashed out at James. Not really anything severe enough to warrant transfer to a mental hospital.
In the same letter, she's says she's alone in Silent Hill, waiting for him to come to see her.

She's certainly not hanging out at Heaven's Night.
That's ignoring everything else she says in her full letter.
This is completely unsubstantiated. Please do not assume that your logic is inherently more correct or obvious than others, given that you completely neglected one of the most important passages in the entire game.
So I guess you've completely forgotten about all the other issues with the theory that have listed by many different people in both topics. Otherwise, you would understand where that post is coming from.
It's really not. It may be less complicated, but it has plot holes.
Name them.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by KingCrimson »

AuraTwilight wrote:
Adding a patient like Mary to a hospital primarily for more violent, mentally challenged people doesn't really seem like a good or logical idea.
Maria's spoken to people who've been dead for many, many years. Time isn't really clear here. There's no problem keeping her in a building that once housed psychopaths if they are not currently there.

Even if there were, it's been done before. This is precisely why buildings have multiple wings. And that's assuming Mary isn't a special case to begin with, given how much Silent Hill in of itself could've helped her condition. I can see strings being pulled.
So sending her to Brookhaven for depression wouldn't make much sense. It would also contradict what Mary said in her letter at the end of the game. The segment where Mary tells James she's being released from the hospital not because she's getting any better, but because it would be her last chance to spend time with him.
In the same letter, she's says she's alone in Silent Hill, waiting for him to come to see her.

She's certainly not hanging out at Heaven's Night.
She says she's in their "special place" waiting for him. Tell me you are not suggesting she meant Brookhaven.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by AuraTwilight »

She says she's in their "special place" waiting for him. Tell me you are not suggesting she meant Brookhaven.
"This whole town is our special place. Does she mean the park by the lake?"

And yet, at the time of the letter's writing, she's IN THE HOSPITAL.

Ergo, when she's writing the letter, she is in a hospital in Silent Hill.
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Re: Mary stayed at Brookhaven Hospital (massive overhaul):

Post by The Adversary »

This thread is really great. Thank you all for participating! I know this is a decade too late or so, but, well, some obsessions never become not obsessions.

And, as per more recent lookings-into, I’m even more convinced Mary stayed at Brookhaven, based on the actual timeline of the game’s events, much of which I’ve addressed in that more recent “Silent Hill 2 Timeline” thread, as introduced by Masahiro Ito’s semi-recent tweets, and the classic “Where Did Mary Die?” thread.

Based on these semi-new revelations, it seems, to me, that James picked Mary up from a hospital in Silent Hill (Brookhaven) after abandoning her, as his final straw. The hesitation in Mary’s voice, when calling for James in that final hallways sequence, screams to me that that’s the moment James truly walked away from her.

When she’s finally released, as per the diary, he picks her up, takes her to that undisclosed/abandoned location and kills her. He puts her in his trunk and drives out of town. But the road home is blocked. He pulls over, hops into the rest station, and the game begins.

That three day gap we’ve all talked about, that whole He took her home and killed her thing—that’s all wrong. It’s been wrong from the beginning. Only hours have passed since he saw Mary last, since he killed her. And that really makes the most sense if she was already in town when it happened. Thus: Brookhaven.

Something else I’ve recently noticed and hadn’t thought about: the Flesh Lips. They’re soggy, saggy, disgusting caged versions of the final boss, Mary/ia. They’re only seen in the examination room on Brookhaven’s first floor, and they’re attached to the ceiling. After they’ve been defeated, James becomes dizzy, collapses, and is carted down the hallway to the garden—all the while hearing Mary’s voice calling to him. James . . . James . . . James . . . .

(I’ve of course always believed this is James experiencing one of Mary’s last memories, after he abandoned her, when she’s being moved around, room to room, on a stretcher.)

But something Mary wrote in her letter had me thinking: “Every day I stare up at the cracks in the ceiling and all I can think about is how unfair it all is.”

The Flesh Lips appear from the cracks in the ceiling in that examination room. And the cages they’re trapped in are the same as Mary/ia, as mentioned before.

That, to me, is another subtle point to prove Mary was in Brookhaven, particularly on the first floor, ultimately in room C2, where Laura finds her teddy bears, and a couple doors down from that nightmarish examination room.
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