In Defense of the Maria Ending

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Ryantology
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

You know, the whole point of this theory is to demonstrate that it's nowhere near as simple as that.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

In your opinion why James's don't mind having murder his own wife all of the sudden, and he decides just pick up another girl to fuck with?
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

Because it's clearly not anything so flippant. For one, he's not swapping one woman for another. He didn't kill Mary because he knew Maria would be there waiting for him.

In this ending, he concludes that Maria is what he needs. I think the fight with "Mary" in this scenario is more symbolic than anything else, it's him letting go. Perhaps not for the best reason in the world, but because it's necessary for him to continue.

Using the term 'murder' is probably not accurate to describe what he did, anyway. Murder implies malicious intent. Certainly, James didn't kill Maria because he had anything to gain from doing it. Even when he says "I wanted my life back", logically, he would know that killing Mary would definitely not accomplish this--if anything, it would forever force him out of any semblance of life as he knew it.

I can understand a person disliking James for what he did, but with you, one almost wonders if it's pathological.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

Hmm, James killed Mary with some malicious intents (and others which aren't) you know, getting her off his way is one of them. He himself says so. And he kills her against her will, even if she yells in agony. I think that is a murder.

I don't like James, at all, I'm the first that say so, but what I'm saying is that in this ending he is 10.000 times worse than he is, speaking in terms of moral, in other endings. Because in other endings he regret what he did, in this he just don't give a shit, and proceed to fuck with the next girl over.

There is a thing in what you all are right folks, and it is, that regarding to James and what he did, there is no black and white, he is no pure evilness, you know, there is a lot of factors, contrary in nature to each other, that lead him to do that.

But in the end, he killed his ill wife, against her will, and even if she yelled for her life. That is enough for me to not like a person/character of a videogame, that's all.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

The fact that she had lived about as long as she possibly already could have is a huge mitigating factor. She was released to go home because there was no more the doctors could do for her. Her time was coming, no matter what.

He killed Mary, but she would have been dead very soon even if he hadn't. She struggles, but anybody will struggle when being suffocated. You'll struggle even if you're doing it to yourself, with complete willingness. It's involuntary.

Besides, the major issue I have with the Maria ending making James into a bad guy is that he gets it only by being protective of Maria--which is not something a bad guy does.

And, he's not doing it for the pussy, either. One only need observe how he reacts to her advances to understand that the suggestion makes him confused and upset. He's trying to protect Maria, as I postulate, in part to atone for not being there for Mary when she needed him.

If he eventually comes to want Maria, it happens after the fact. It's not the cause of his protective tendencies. Faced with Maria and her apparent situation, most of us would probably end up with the Maria ending because we would attempt to protect her.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

The time Mary has remaining isn't a exuse, for my at least, for James to kill her. She wanted to live, as she said.

You are right about the struggling thing, but Mary stated she wanted to live, and starts struggling from the very begining, because she didn't wanted to die.

The Maria ending is obtained if you look after her, yes, but it is a gameplay mechanic, in the fiction he still can look for Maria, and protect her, but later feel remorse about what he have done, and mourn the dead of his wife, and of course, not starting a relationship with another person right there. In this ending, he don't feel remorse, nor mourne about Mary.

Yes, thorough the game, he sometimes react upset, and others he himself don't know what he really wants, if stay with Maria, or continue searching for Mary, anyway it don't have to do with the fact that in the Maria ending he is willingly leaving all behind in order to stay with Maria, even his regret and remorse for what he did.

Again, protect Maria has nothing to do with later forget all regrets and remorse instantly. In this ending James is not acting like a normal person, like a lot of people have said before, out of pure selfiness, he forget totally about Mary, including his regret and remorse for killing her. And thus, he is condemmned to do it again.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

The time Mary has remaining isn't a exuse, for my at least, for James to kill her. She wanted to live, as she said.

You are right about the struggling thing, but Mary stated she wanted to live, and starts struggling from the very begining, because she didn't wanted to die.
She's completely undecided on this. She also says, multiple times, that she doesn't want to live anymore. Which is why, in two of the endings, she is forgiving of James for what he did. She understands that it didn't really matter, and if she's accepting of how it went down, well, who are we to question her judgement?

It's worth noting that in the Maria ending, James kills Mary because Mary lashes out at him, not caring about his reasons and not allowing him to explain himself. Then she tries to kill him. It's not as if he just shot her in the back of the head when she wasn't looking or something like that.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

Alone in the Town: "It's not as if he just shot her in the back of the head when she wasn't looking or something like that."

Well, it is kinda what he did to the real Mary, but with a pillow instead of a bullet.

I still think that in reality Mary didn't wanted to die, she just wanted James to say her all was going well, that she wasn't a monster despite her ill, and that he loved her, but James took it wrong. So I still don't like James for what he did.

Fair enough, you have your opinion, I have mine, both based in well documented facts and hits thorough the game.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Don, Aman »

alone in the town wrote:I think the fight with "Mary" in this scenario is more symbolic than anything else, it's him letting go.
While I agree with you on this, I'm of the opinion something slightly different is going on. Throughout the game, James is constantly questioning whether Maria real or not, both in his head and to her face. I believe that the Maria ending is James finally convincing his psyche that Maria is real. So, while he may believe he is finally letting go of Mary, he is actually just burying himself farther down in his delusions. This makes the Maria ending all the more tragic, as he is doomed to repeat the lessons he didn't learn. Cough, cough...
Don stepped outside... It feels good to be alone... He wished he was drunk...
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

flipain wrote: Back to topic, when I said James had a psycothic break, I expressed myself wrong, and I have said so in the thread where I said this, but seems like "Souless Shadow" only read, or understand what he wants.
1) I still believe if you were anywhere near as qualified as you claim you wouldn't have used the wrong terms to describe James, even if you expressed yourself wrong. I don't get mix my terminology up when talking about the things I'm qualified in, even if I am a little ditzy.
2) The only things I am picking and choosing from your posts are the things I can understand or the things I believe require discussion. If I have not addressed something it is simply because of your poor English skills or because I have nothing to add to it or have already discussed it. FYI, I am well aware English is not your native language, and as such I have been patient, so this remark isn't a jab at your for your English.
And 3) I'm not a he. I'm a she.
flipain wrote:To my fellow SOULESS SHADOW:
When I say James killed Mary in coold blood, I mean he did it on purpouse, and despite the fact she didn't wanted to die, and that she was yelling in agony for her life.
Talk about "understanding what you want". I said what James did was a spur of the moment thing. He didn't wake up that morning and decide to kill Mary. Hell, he probably wasn't even thinking when he reached for the pillow. There's a major difference between consciously deciding to kill someone and acting on auto-pilot. I repeat it was a spur of the moment action - not premeditated. Therefore he was not a cold blooded murderer, just a broken man who couldn't take it any more. Also, I never said he did it under a psychotic break or that he did it involuntary. All I said, and I can't stress this enough, is it was a spur of the moment act. If this were a real live case that were in court they would take his state of mind and Mary's illness into account, rather than just charge him with murder and send him to jail.
flipain wrote:And, I'm not a trained proffesional, I have a degree in psycology, Industrial Psycology exactly, Psycology aplicated to laboral world, business, companies, etc, the ones who form Human Resources in companies, you know. BUT I have studied clinical psycology during the whole university course, specially the first three years, although, I'm not specialiced in that, of course.
I suppose I should address this otherwise I might be accused of only reading and understanding what I want. It has been duly noted that you have a Degree in Industrial Psychology.
flipain wrote:I said, right after I failed using the term "psycothic break", that I have been expresing myself wrong, that I used the term as a form of speaking (even we the psicologies are human, or do you think we obtein superpowers and we can't be wrong any more after completing the university course?), and I used it because I didn't thought the people were going to search internet searching the exact meaning of the words.
1) No need to come off as such an arsehole. No, I don't expect people to gain superpowers after they finish study. If that were the case I could fix computers just by looking at them, considering I have just spent goodness knows how many years studying IT and Networking. Sadly I'm more likely to break them by simply being in the same room.
2) This is a Silent Hill forum consisting of Silent Hill fans. Of course someone is going to google a term another "fan" uses. What kind of fan wouldn't? We use real world research on real world things to get more idea of what the hell is going on in the game. Read some of the threads in the Silent Hill 2 Quick Links and you'll see a whole lot of theories based on extensive research. Oh, Flipain, that bold text is a link, btw. It'll take you straight to the Silent Hill 2 Quick Links page.
flipain wrote:And I also said that is impossible to James being under a psycothic break, nor a temporary insanity, because if it was the case, he wouldn't have felt guilt (he wouldn't have know he had killed his own wife), and when he watches the tape at the hotel, he would had thought the tape to be some type of trick played by the haunted town, because he wouldn't had recall nothing. Plus, in the case of psycothic break, PH would have never existed, becasue James would'nt had felt guilt deep inside, but he felt guilt, because he knew deep inside himself what he had done. Plus, again, if he would have really lost control over himself, aka, temporary insanity, aka psicothic break, he would have said so to Mary in the end, like "I really don't know what I did", or "I lost control, I don't remember anything", but he dind't says nothing like that, because he remember perfectly what he did, and accept all the responsability. People who commit a crime under a psycothic break/temporary insanity aren't directly responsibles, thus, they aren't jailed in a regular cell, but bringed to a Mental Sanitarium.
Again I never said what he did was involuntary or anything. As for Pyramid Head, if you'll read some of the theories about him in the Quicklinks you'll see that it's possible he's a lot more than a 2 dimensional monster whose only purpose is to rape mannequins and torment James (before anyone has a tantrum, I do realize PH is not actually raping the mannequins). I quite like this theory about him actually being a saviour rather than a punisher.
flipain wrote:Ok people, thank for your insults, and for have given me the oportunity of explaining myself before you started calling me a liar. That's all.
Nobody has meant to insult you. We have simply called you out because no-one believed you when you said you had a Degree in Psychology due to your posts. Besides, it would be naive to believe everything everyone posts. If you'll reread my other post you'll see that I was trying to be nice. If I wanted to be mean and insult you I wouldn't have bothered saying "I don't mean to offend you, and I definitely don't mean to be antagonistic." I would've got straight to the point and accused you point-blank about lying.
flipain wrote:In your opinion why James's don't mind having murder his own wife all of the sudden, and he decides just pick up another girl to fuck with?
Another girl who just so happens to have been created by James' mind to look just like Mary, only....sluttier. If anything it's an indication that he still loved Mary, even if Maria is just a slutty Mary. Otherwise Maria would've been completely different, or not existed at all. If he didn't love Mary, and didn't still want her, he could've just dumped Mary's body in a ditch and found himself a cheap hooker. Then SH2 never would've taken place.

Anyway, Flipain, I highly recommend you read through as many threads in the Silent Hill 2 Quick Links as you can, then you'll hopefully have a better understanding of what is going on in SH2.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by lain of the wired »

@Soulless: No, I'm afraid I must disagree. I rather did mean to slap flipain down as hard as I could. Now? Now I'm just laughing in utter delight.
flipain wrote:You all can think of me being a liar all you want, it means nothing.

Back to topic, when I said James had a psycothic break, I expressed myself wrong, and I have said so in the thread where I said this, but seems like "Souless Shadow" only read, or understand what he wants.

To my fellow SOULESS SHADOW:
When I say James killed Mary in coold blood, I mean he did it on purpouse, and despite the fact she didn't wanted to die, and that she was yelling in agony for her life.

And, I'm not a trained proffesional, I have a degree in psycology, Industrial Psycology exactly, Psycology aplicated to laboral world, business, companies, etc, the ones who form Human Resources in companies, you know. BUT I have studied clinical psycology during the whole university course, specially the first three years, although, I'm not specialiced in that, of course.

I said, right after I failed using the term "psycothic break", that I have been expresing myself wrong, that I used the term as a form of speaking (even we the psicologies are human, or do you think we obtein superpowers and we can't be wrong any more after completing the university course?), and I used it because I didn't thought the people were going to search internet searching the exact meaning of the words.

And I also said that is impossible to James being under a psycothic break, nor a temporary insanity, because if it was the case, he wouldn't have felt guilt (he wouldn't have know he had killed his own wife), and when he watches the tape at the hotel, he would had thought the tape to be some type of trick played by the haunted town, because he wouldn't had recall nothing. Plus, in the case of psycothic break, PH would have never existed, becasue James would'nt had felt guilt deep inside, but he felt guilt, because he knew deep inside himself what he had done. Plus, again, if he would have really lost control over himself, aka, temporary insanity, aka psicothic break, he would have said so to Mary in the end, like "I really don't know what I did", or "I lost control, I don't remember anything", but he dind't says nothing like that, because he remember perfectly what he did, and accept all the responsability. People who commit a crime under a psycothic break/temporary insanity aren't directly responsibles, thus, they aren't jailed in a regular cell, but bringed to a Mental Sanitarium.

To my loved and fellow GOODNIGHT:
I haven't said James IS a psycopath, you are right, he isn't, he don't have the personality traits to be one, what I said, is that in the "Maria" ending, he BECOME a psycopath, in fact, I had forgoten about the psycopaths having innate traits, so, I correct myself, James, in the Maria ending, becomes something similar to a psycopath, because he lose entirely the guilt for killing Mary (a normal person wouldn't), and replace her inmediately, without mourning (the mourning don't last ten minutes you know, it takes years), as if she was an object that can be replaced.
And I'm not confusing psychosis with psycopathy, thanks.
By the way, James DO have temporary psichosis/a psycothic break when he starts imagining ablout the letter.

To AURA TWILIGHT:
I know that, I was refering he just had killed Mary, again, in the final boss form, and it well could be the actual Mary (her soul), and James just don't mind.

to the VIRTUOUS LAIN OF THE WIRED:
Don't worry my friend, as I have said before, I'm not a clinic psycology, but an Industrial Psycology, and thus I have no patients, nor I'm a therapist, plus I don't even work as Industrial psycology/Human Resources, because I'm trying to become a graphic designer, I attended the psycology university course in order to have an "normal" degree, just in case I couldn't work as graphic designer, and I selected psycology, becaouse of all the possible degrees was the one I liked more, you know, learn things about the human mind and behavior. In fact, I selected Industrial psycoloy/human resources over clinical psicology/therapist because I think that in order to actually try to help someone as a therapist you have to want to become a psycology wholeheartedly, and that weren't my case.

Ok people, thank for your insults, and for have given me the oportunity of explaining myself before you started calling me a liar. That's all.
Oh my god, I can't stop laughing!! He has a degree in how to make an environment worker-friendly and calls it "a degree in psychology," then leaps right into analysis of the field he himself says he has no training in!! Between the lack of training in the emotional and therapeutic side of psychology and the complete inability simply to spell "psychology" in a consistent manner, I fucking love it! It's fabulous!! Flipain, you are my new favorite toy!

Christ on a cracker, though, ever hear of sticking to your guns? It's not your first language, I get it, but you can't hide behind that as an excuse for bad arguments. Even if you have a tendency to misuse phrases, don't try to argue out of jargon definitions: there's a single definition, and it isn't something you can wiggle around with. That's why they have all these comities convene to reassess, redefine and reconfirm the DSM every few years. It's unethical to muck about with the psyche and diagnosis... but surely they have ethics even in HR studies, and you know better than to do so, right? :wink:
GAME FOR SCIENCE!! When you finish the 1st part, set a timer for 30 minutes, play your eyeballs out! When the time is up, complete the survey!

BACK FROM THE DEAD, BITCHES
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

So no one meant insulting me, yeah... .Ok, keep insulting me, I don't care.

I have said what happened, I used such terms as a form of speaking, and I don't see it unethical, because I'm not speaking about a real person, but a fucking videogame character. And again, I'm not a qualified Clinical Psycology, I selected other branch.
I just failed in express myself, I'm human. You yourself, souless shadow speaks about fails in your field of knowledge but I can't fail?

Lain of the Wired, you are just an ignorant, Human Resources not only make comfortable the work enviroments, they select the people who enters in a company, according with their habilities and knowledge, and they create teams of people mixing their capabilities in order to achieve the best results. Obviously is important in HR the analisis of traits of personality in order to do that. And I don't know how it works in your country, but in Spain there is Psycology university course, that has 3 common years, and then you select a speciality, the more commons specialities are clinical psycology, what you people think is the only psycology, and Industrial psycology, that uses the knowledge of the human behavior in order to achieve better results in the company's world, so Industrial Psycology is a branch of Psycology, and I do have a degree in Psycology for that. And know a lot about personality traits and human behavior. The fact I have failed to express myself, and not being a clinical psycology don't contrary this.

And you claims yourself to be a good therapist and the next moment are calling "toy" to another human being, yeah, you are such a good therapist.

I'm not the toy of no one, you RETARDED.


And back to topic, maybe I started being too hard with James, things are not black or white when it comes to what he did, I'm now being a little bit more tolerant toward James, but still he is a man who killed his own ill wife, against her will, like you can see in the original version of the infamous tape, where Mary tries to shout for her life. You all think what James did was somehow inavoidable, but it wasn't, other people would have stayed with Mary her last days, or even would abandoned her before kill her against her own will. I know James loved Mary, indeed, he loved mary so much that without her, he hadn't anything, but he only realize this when Mary is gone, and this is my main reason to believe the In Water ending is the one more correct, although I know the 4 endings can be equally correct. In my opinion James isn't a person I can put my trust on, I dislike him for what he did, because I think he could have done other things before killing an indefense person against her will. After that, I just can't trust him. Any of you really trust James for real after what he did?
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by The Adversary »

>I'm not the toy of no one, you RETARDED.<
That's not very psycologist [sic] of you, industrial or not. That's considered inflammatory here, and the administrator doesn't take kindly to people who use the term "retarded" pejoratively.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

Do you have a better term for someone that claim other people to be his toys?
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

flipain wrote: I just failed in express myself, I'm human. You yourself, souless shadow speaks about fails in your field of knowledge but I can't fail?
And yet I don't get my terminology mixed up. However, my "fails in [my] field of knowledge" are more along the lines of temperamental technology and dodgy software fucking shit up than me not knowing what the hell I'm doing.
flipain wrote:And back to topic, maybe I started being too hard with James, things are not black or white when it comes to what he did, I'm now being a little bit more tolerant toward James, but still he is a man who killed his own ill wife, against her will, like you can see in the original version of the infamous tape, where Mary tries to shout for her life. You all think what James did was somehow inavoidable, but it wasn't, other people would have stayed with Mary her last days, or even would abandoned her before kill her against her own will.
Everyone knows that he could have taken another course of action. However, we're (or I) arguing that he simply couldn't see any other course of action. That's different to killing in cold blood. "In cold blood" suggests that he thought about it, therefore was in the state of mind to know there were different alternatives. He was too messed up from the years of stress from Mary's illness to be able to think and act like a rational human being.
flipain wrote:I know James loved Mary, indeed, he loved mary so much that without her, he hadn't anything, but he only realize this when Mary is gone, and this is my main reason to believe the In Water ending is the one more correct, although I know the 4 endings can be equally correct. In my opinion James isn't a person I can put my trust on, I dislike him for what he did, because I think he could have done other things before killing an indefense person against her will. After that, I just can't trust him.
You can empathise with Mary and her murder, but you can't empathise with James and his mental anguish? They were both victims of Mary's disease.
flipain wrote:Any of you really trust James for real after what he did?
Yes, I would trust James.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by The Adversary »

>Do you have a better term for someone that claim other people to be his toys?<
I'm not going to help you come up with insults to direct at a colleague.

Also—lain of the wired is a woman.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

Well, you all are bashing me as strong as you can, (just what Lain of the wired said), even if I have recognised my fails, but still I can't fight back? Don't expect me be quiet while you all insults me.

Back to topic:
Yeah, James didn't killed Mary in cold blood, I see it now, and he still do some heroic things, at least one, that is saving Angela from the doorman, but still he did what he did, I can't trust him entirelly, we are speaking about killing an innocent human being, it something too serious for me.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by The Adversary »

I haven't even remotely insulted you, whereas you have insulted numerous people. I'm not going to assist you in doing so.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by flipain »

I have only insulted Lain of the Wired after she claimed I was her new toy.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by The Adversary »

Rules and Guidelines
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In short: Move on.
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