In Defense of the Maria Ending

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Oddish
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Oddish »

QUOTE: Well, not Earth's reality, no. But he decides reality, now.

QUOTE: There's more than one way to 'move on'. I'm saying that in the Maria ending, he's over Mary and is pursuing his own solution, because F*** This, He's Got Supernatural Answers To His Problems.

Both those statements (the first especially) suggests a measure of control over the Otherworld that I don't think James has. I think that if James were really able to determine what happens in the Otherworld, Maria would not be coughing. He's definitely over Mary; but his so-called solution still lies within a delusion. The delusion in question may be tangible, touchable, and even screwable, but its basic nature is what it is. And, given the nature of the town (regardless of whether you use my theory or yours), it could easily turn on him.

QUOTE: I personally don't see Rebirth being that simple and easy, but I can't admonish anyone for it.

I don't admonish anyone for their preference about an ending, or their theories about it. Nor will I be receptive to admonishment about mine.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by AuraTwilight »

Both those statements (the first especially) suggests a measure of control over the Otherworld that I don't think James has. I think that if James were really able to determine what happens in the Otherworld, Maria would not be coughing. He's definitely over Mary; but his so-called solution still lies within a delusion. The delusion in question may be tangible, touchable, and even screwable, but its basic nature is what it is. And, given the nature of the town (regardless of whether you use my theory or yours), it could easily turn on him.
That's not what I'm suggesting, thankfully. Though what he's experiencing IS dictated by his subconscious mind to a large extent, so he's more in control than he ever really was in our world. My point remains valid.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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As does mine: since we can't really control our subconscious, and James's subconscious seems to be running things, James does not have the power to consciously manipulate the Otherworld. The more relevant issue is whether the Otherworld (of which Maria is a part) is fantasy or reality. That's another subjective question.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by AuraTwilight »

I don't think consciously manipulating things has any merit for saying one has control in this sort of situation, since our consciousness is dictated by our subconsciousness. Cue Free Will argument. No thanks.

The Otherworld isn't reality...but it is for James. And there's no one to tell him otherwise. He's not going nutso in the real world, he's in a world that makes his every delusion a reality. If insanity is being out of touch with reality, then isn't he sane if reality shapes itself to his mind?
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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The Otherworld isn't reality...but it is for James. And there's no one to tell him otherwise. He's not going nutso in the real world, he's in a world that makes his every delusion a reality. If insanity is being out of touch with reality, then isn't he sane if reality shapes itself to his mind?

Hmmm... follow that argument far enough, and insanity itself ceases to exist. Every delusional or psychotic person believes absolutely in the reality that he or she creates, whether consciously or subconsciously. Yes, Silent Hill (through mystical physics or supernatural malevolence) magnifies James's delusions and gives them life. However, they are delusions nonetheless.
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Ryantology
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

Well, what he's saying is that the term 'delusion' ceases to mean anything when reality itself is defined by whatever you believe is true. Once objectivity is gone, all bets are off. That is, after all, a giant theme in this series, and the reason I can imagine a positive result of the Maria ending (as well as the Rebirth ending); it will be precisely as wonderful, or as terrible, as James allows it to be.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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^Reminds me of an old koan I heard once: if you're all alone, and you close your eyes, does the world still exist around you? How would you know if it didn't?

A better question, I think, would be at what point does The Otherworld stop being an illusion, and where does it become reality again? Truly reality, I mean, not just the Grayworld. Cause if James takes Maria home with him, does she stay real, or become real, or fade away...? Or, as Ryantology pointed out, do they stay inside the Otherworld and live among shadows and illusions? This ending gives me a bad feeling, it always has. It seems like it's a tale of "too good to be true" which kind of plays out in the game--James becomes emotionally invested and befriends Maria, she is violently murdered, he despairs, and is later given a new dosage of hope when she is miraculously found unharmed. Rinse and repeat. "They despaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire."

Of course, I hope Jimmy can find happiness. One way or the other. I just don't have high hopes.
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Ryantology
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

A better question, I think, would be at what point does The Otherworld stop being an illusion, and where does it become reality again? Truly reality, I mean, not just the Grayworld.
Let me ask a question in response to yours:

We have to assume that it's entirely possible to create, inside the Otherworld, the perception of the real world as we understand it, identical in every way. If you believe it's real, after all, it is. If you enter a world in which your beliefs manifest as reality, can you ever leave it? Can you ever be certain you've left it?

And, most importantly, can you properly say one of them is 'real' and one is not?

In other words:

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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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^That's some real inception shit right there, Ryan. Well played.

...I've thought about it, and... I don't really have a rebuttal to that. Because it's absolutely plausible. When reality stops being completely real and you can no longer rely on your own sensory input for anything concrete, what does the subjective label matter?

All we really have is our own inner universe to live inside.

I bow to the master.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Glenn »

Ryantology wrote:
A better question, I think, would be at what point does The Otherworld stop being an illusion, and where does it become reality again? Truly reality, I mean, not just the Grayworld.
Let me ask a question in response to yours:

We have to assume that it's entirely possible to create, inside the Otherworld, the perception of the real world as we understand it, identical in every way. If you believe it's real, after all, it is. If you enter a world in which your beliefs manifest as reality, can you ever leave it? Can you ever be certain you've left it?

And, most importantly, can you properly say one of them is 'real' and one is not?

In other words:

I can see this if James stayed in Silent Hill with Maria, but I thought the otherworld was formed due to the spirituality of Silent Hill connected with one's own fears and emotions (atleast in SH2, I know in 1 and 3 its different.)

When he gets far enough away from Silent Hill, wouldn't the otherworld blend back and eventually turn into the normal world?
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Ryantology
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Ryantology »

When he gets far enough away from Silent Hill, wouldn't the otherworld blend back and eventually turn into the normal world?
How would you ever be able to tell for certain? And, if you're in the Otherworld, who knows if it makes any difference how far away you are from what you perceive to be Silent Hill? The best you can ever do is assume you've left.

That's the fun of introducing a completely subjective reality. None of these questions can be given a definitive answer.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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Hmmm... follow that argument far enough, and insanity itself ceases to exist. Every delusional or psychotic person believes absolutely in the reality that he or she creates, whether consciously or subconsciously. Yes, Silent Hill (through mystical physics or supernatural malevolence) magnifies James's delusions and gives them life. However, they are delusions nonetheless.
That's kind of my point. In the Otherworld, delusion and truth become synonymous. It is only if you desire to return to Earth that defeating your delusions becomes the 'right choice' because only on Earth does facing the truth matter; only on Earth is there a Single Truth we cannot ignore, disobey, or change.

But in the Maria Ending, James doesn't wish for that. So what's the harm in maintaining his delusions? They're as true as anything else in his environment.
And, most importantly, can you properly say one of them is 'real' and one is not?
New theory: No character in any part of the Silent Hill series has ever returned to reality upon leaving it. Not a single one.

That includes Harry and the baby Heather. MIIIIND FREAAAAK.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Oddish »

Hmmm... the whole "what is reality" question sounds to me like something out of "The Matrix". I guess we all have to define it our own way. If reality is what you can smell and taste and touch, then the Matrix, Inception, and Silent Hill are all real in their own right. If reality is objectively determined, then Maria is a delusion, no matter how tangible (and screwable) she is.

Regardless, I am of the mind that the "Maria" ending is not a happy one, primarily because James is not in conscious control of the reality he has created. If he were, Maria would not be coughing. If any part of James is manipulating this sequence of events, it is the same part that brought Pyramid Head into existence. Based on the evidence at hand, I predict that James's Maria experience will bring him only sorrow.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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You make it sound like there's only "conscious James" and "unconscious James", when James' unconscious minds has atleast two polarizing forces.

Maria of which seems to have been manifested by the opposing agenda from what manifested Pyramid Head.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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^There's also the town itself as a factor. The town's uncanny magic and shit are what've made the events of the games even possible, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to assume it would have a say in what hijinks go on. I mean, no-one's actively warping Silent Hill, like in SH1, SH3, or SH4.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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Except James, and Eddie, and Angela, and even Laura and Mary to an extent.

The town doesn't seem to have a will. It never DOES anything that isn't atleast subconsciously requested by a human character. It's a device, not a character. A supernatural canvas painted with the colors of the soul.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Glenn »

I feel like the Maria ending can't go far (literally). The town is responsible for James seeing the monsters, Pyramid Head, Maria etc. We already saw James try to go in the bowling alley with Maria. He wanted Maria to go in and questioned her about the refusal. Obviously she couldn't go in the bowling alley or her whole gig would end.

I feel like there could be 3 outcomes with the Maria ending

1) As they leave the graveyard Maria convinces James that they should stay in Silent Hill. She uses what Mary says about Silent Hill being so beautiful and peaceful as a decoy so Maria wouldn't "vanish" as they leave Silent Hill's influence
2) James is so delusional by this point that he doesn't need Silent Hill to keep her real. Maria convinces James that they should live in a secluded place away from people, so James won't have to be wary of a police investigation (and also so Maria won't be outed). Maria's cough worsens, gets sick, and James smoothers her with a pillow
3) As they leave Silent Hill, Maria vanishes.

I think that the Maria ending is a bad ending regardless. James is in a delusional state . He also literally leaves with what should have been the final boss.

I find it funny though that one of the HD Collection's trophies list the Maria ending as "second best." I guess she's second best to Mary, but not for an ending!
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AuraTwilight
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

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Or, 4) the two of them stay in the Otherworld, but can go 'anywhere' in it, like in the movie, where Rose and Sharon returned to an Otherworld version of their house.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by WelcomeToNowhere »

I'd like to think she becomes a real person with her own thoughts and feelings completely separate from those of Mary's when they both leave town. If they could just get far enough from Silent Hill's uncanny influence, they might be free.
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Re: In Defense of the Maria Ending

Post by Glenn »

AuraTwilight wrote:Or, 4) the two of them stay in the Otherworld, but can go 'anywhere' in it, like in the movie, where Rose and Sharon returned to an Otherworld version of their house.
Are you talking about the Silent Hill movie? I didn't care for that movie, but I don't think we can compare with what happened in a movie to the outcome of SH 2 since the game was made way before it, and since SH 2 is sort of a stand-alone game that seperates itself from the others.

Plus I don't think the otherworld stretches that far out. When you start in SH 2, its possible that you are in the normal world or the fringes of the fog world since you are on an outskirt area -- there was hardly any fog and no monsters. Certainly James didn't see any monsters or unrelenting fog on his trip to Silent Hill, so I feel that Silent Hill's power is fairly restricted to Silent Hill itself.

Now I do think its possible that James and Maria continue on with their lives, but if they leave Silent Hill it would be without the assistance of those other worlds and would be completely on James' mind.
WelcomeToNowhere wrote:I'd like to think she becomes a real person with her own thoughts and feelings completely separate from those of Mary's when they both leave town. If they could just get far enough from Silent Hill's uncanny influence, they might be free.
If only there was an ending where James decides to revive Maria!
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