Worried that Downpour will be too "casual."

[Kenji]

That and players of less skill will be forever sealed into the worse endings. Unless they cheat, or something.

There's always hooking the player up to electrodes...

[SPRINGS02]

Ehh, i don't care too much about difficulty in silent hill games, i mean i don't mind a little challenge but that's not what i play silent hill for. I play it for the horror. So while i kind of see what you mean(games are getting kind of easier, but they're getting larger) it doesn't matter so much for silent hill. And as far as save points, if they keep it the way it was in sh 1-3 that would be fine, but i didn't really have a problem with 4 or shattered memories save points either. Homecomings saves were too damn scattered.

I should also bring up that the "respawn where you died" thing came from PC gaming, and PC gamer culture has always looked down upon console gamers as a bunch of unsophisticated children.

Tell me about it, one of my good friends is into pc gaming and says that it's better than console gaming. He often says console gamers are casuals. Personally i think pc gaming is stupid and way more hassle than it's worth, why should i go spend a good chunk of money just to go get the most recent graphics card(that'll be outdated in like a year) and download all these stupid updates to play on a pc when i could just pop in a disk and enjoy. And i'll take a controller over a mouse and keyboard any day.

[Tillerman]

Ehh, i don't care too much about difficulty in silent hill games, i mean i don't mind a little challenge but that's not what i play silent hill for. I play it for the horror. So while i kind of see what you mean(games are getting kind of easier, but they're getting larger) it doesn't matter so much for silent hill. And as far as save points, if they keep it the way it was in sh 1-3 that would be fine, but i didn't really have a problem with 4 or shattered memories save points either. Homecomings saves were too damn scattered.

Well, I think the difficulty is just about at the perfect balance in SH3. IMO the main thing about difficulty is that it's not that the game should be easy or hard, but that the difficulty switch should be as meaningful as possible. So the "easy" level should be legitimately easy, the "hard" level should be legitimately hard, and there should be a large difference in between. Shattered Memories is an example of a Silent Hill that is too frustrating in my opinion, it could have really used a difficulty switch.

It's just that I'm getting the sense in gaming today that the idea of penalizing the player when they die is starting to be considered "old school." And while some games make sense to be forgiving, when it comes to horror games I think the "old school" method of save points is the only school that makes sense.

Tell me about it, one of my good friends is into pc gaming and says that it's better than console gaming. He often says console gamers are casuals. Personally i think pc gaming is stupid and way more hassle than it's worth, why should i go spend a good chunk of money just to go get the most recent graphics card(that'll be outdated in like a year) and download all these stupid updates to play on a pc when i could just pop in a disk and enjoy. And i'll take a controller over a mouse and keyboard any day.

Well, personally console games appeal to me more, for a whole boatload of reasons. In short: I prefer 3rd person games, I don't like playing a mute, I like having actual cutscenes, generally PC games don't have very good soundtracks, and (for horror games in particular) I don't like it when a game is extremely forgiving when you die. But even with all that, I wouldn't say that PC games are worse than console games, they simply offer a different type of gaming experience. They tend to be very concerned with "immersion," something I don't care about at all, but hey for people who really want that style of game that's fine.

[AngelValtiel]

if that's the case, they really should let the series die in peace.
I could not stand another title getting massacred by more ignorant developers.

[Mephisto]

Eh, maybe they will take a "light" stance.

Homecoming wasn't even a hard game but because of the whole dodging and "button mashing" many people refused to play. I don't think Vatra would want the same reputation with that game of theirs.

[KiramidHead]

I have an example of a game where the old school save point system is pissing me off to no end: Fatal Frame 2. Okay, some of this may count as spoilers, but I'll be as unspecific as possible. I'm right a the end of the game, you get one save point. Then you get a corridor absolutely full of powerful ghosts, whose only purpose is to drain your health and supplies before you get to the final boss. After that corridor, there's a big open room that's very creepy and atmospheric. You enter the next room, where you fight the final boss. This boss can kill you in one hit, even on the lower difficulty levels. Now, they could have put a save point in the big empty room just prior to the final boss, but noooooooooo. If you die, you have to go through that bullshit item wasting corridor again. Tecmo is filled with sadistic bastards.

[Mephisto]

Tecmo is filled with sadistic bastards.

Don't forget about Sega.

[KiramidHead]

Huh, never really played any Sega games.

[Mephisto]

Your loss, not mine. . .

[KiramidHead]

One thing I don't want is for Downpour to be I Wanna be the Guy Hard. I don't think my sanity could take that kind of punishment from SH.

[Tillerman]

I have an example of a game where the old school save point system is pissing me off to no end: Fatal Frame 2. Okay, some of this may count as spoilers, but I'll be as unspecific as possible. I'm right a the end of the game, you get one save point. Then you get a corridor absolutely full of powerful ghosts, whose only purpose is to drain your health and supplies before you get to the final boss. After that corridor, there's a big open room that's very creepy and atmospheric. You enter the next room, where you fight the final boss. This boss can kill you in one hit, even on the lower difficulty levels. Now, they could have put a save point in the big empty room just prior to the final boss, but noooooooooo. If you die, you have to go through that bullshit item wasting corridor again. Tecmo is filled with sadistic bastards.

I hear ya, though I love Fatal Frame 2. My only complaint about the above example is that difficulty levels should have more of an effect here. On the easy level, that boss should not be killing you on one hit. It sounds like the difficulty setting is not making much of a difference for you, and I think that's a huge problem.

Though I think the challenge level you described is perfectly fine for hard mode, especially on the final boss.

[Yuki]

Yes, that's basically what I mean. Let me explain exactly why I feel that way: I think, (for me at least) a huge part of the psychological horror factor is just the fact that there is *risk.* And I don't just mean the fact that if something kills you, it forces you to watch a graphical representation of your death... I mean in a literal sense, it threatens to setback your game. IMO a horror game *needs* this sense of risk, and without it the psychological power to scare the gamer is completely neutered. This has been my experience with some recent PC horror games I've been trying, like Amnesia and Dead Space.

I think it's just differing perspectives on horror gaming here. I'm more frightened by the atmosphere in the game than anything else. If I were to die and lose items and such, that would just frustrate me, because what if I make a dumb mistake?

Dying itself in a game is a risk; I'm scared of fighting the monsters and losing, regardless of penalty. Putting in unnecessary penalties for dying would frustrate me, not scare me.

[Tillerman]

I think it's just differing perspectives on horror gaming here. I'm more frightened by the atmosphere in the game than anything else. If I were to die and lose items and such, that would just frustrate me, because what if I make a dumb mistake?

Dying itself in a game is a risk; I'm scared of fighting the monsters and losing, regardless of penalty. Putting in unnecessary penalties for dying would frustrate me, not scare me.

You and I agree that atmosphere is incredibly important, and is what creates the majority of the fear. No question about it.

I just feel like a certain amount of penalties is necessary or that fear created by atmosphere is sabotaged. I'm not saying the games should be any harder than SH3. Did you feel like the penalties for dying in SH3 were unnecessary?

[KiramidHead]

@Tillerman: Yeah, I was playing on normal mode, and I was loving the game up until that point. Part of the problem was that they changed a lot from Fatal Frame 1, where the boss could kill you with one hit, but a stone mirror would restore full health if you had one. They removed that feature from 2 as far as the final boss goes.

[Trauma_]

Guess what guys! This is what's going to happen if Silent Hill Downpour turns out to be shit! I mean, there is nothinng more catestrophic than a bad Silennt Hill game amirite?

[KiramidHead]

^Looks like the next Roland Emmerich movie.

[Doctor Eggnog]

Save points is definently my favorite way to save, making your way from one to the next can be in many games, such as RPGs and survival horror, an intense experience. You have to learn from your mistakes and do things a different way too make it. With checkpoints at every corner you can make all the mistakes you want even on purpose if you feel like it and it doesn't really matter. I can see how that would remove some of the fear.

In terms of actual difficulty, yeah that's what difficulty settings are for. I hope they have really good range, like how SH3 had the pussy Beginner mode versus the crazy Extreme modes. And the more changes between the difficulties the better.

[Trauma_]

^Looks like the next Roland Emmerich movie.

Well played sir!

I don't actually mind the save point system that's been in place since their first game. I don't see why there's any reason to change it at all.

[Tillerman]

Guess what guys! This is what's going to happen if Silent Hill Downpour turns out to be shit! I mean, there is nothinng more catestrophic than a bad Silennt Hill game amirite?

Heh, yeah. Well, it's just that I'm hurting for some scary games at the moment, so it would be really nice if the new one was good.

I don't see why there's any reason to change it at all.

I don't want them to change it either. I'm just worried that with other modern games all seeming to head down this path, they might feel some pressure to as well. But that's probably an irrational fear on my part.

[Soulless-Shadow]

I don't mind if it's save points or checkpoints. However, I like checkpoints/autosaves more than I do save points. Save points disrupt gameplay and take me out of the game, whereas checkpoints are barely noticeable (other than a little flashing icon). The game continues to flow as it should, and I'm left to continue focusing on what I'm doing than thinking random thoughts while waiting for it to save. Either way I'm happy as long as there are difficulty settings for both gameplay and riddles. On my first play through I like to pick Easy for both so I can concentrate on the story first. Eventually, after a few play throughs, I like to switch it up and have a challenge.