Would you prefer SH1 or SH3 next?

[WaffleMaker]

If Silent Hill 2 Remake does well, which would you rather see first? I personally feel that 1 could benefit most from an update but would rather see 3 up next.

[Chris Sunderland]

Definitely 1, I'd be down right disappointed if it was SH3. Hell SH2 is my favorite thing ever and I would of preferred SH1 get remade first. Firstly SH3 is a direct follow up to SH1. SH2 stands on its own and really help define what Silent Hill is so it's fine if it's remade first. Remaking SH3 first would just be.... Weird, especially for the newer fans it wants to draw in. That certain death scene half way through? It would be loose all impact. SH1 being remade first would open up the option to cheaply expand SH3s back half as you'd have assets for both Palevale and Old Silent Hill ready to go. Could definitely see them extending Heather's journey in Silent Hill.

The real answer is SH4 though. That game with the right team and vision could be expanded on to be something as revered as SH2.

[WaffleMaker]

Good point. It wouldn’t make sense to do SH3 with that twist in the middle since you mention it. The Room would be great! Lots of potential there. SH1 it is then.

And yes SH2 is the peak of culture! The game seared itself into my dna when I was a kid, though I couldn’t fully appreciate its depth and beauty at the time.

[jdnation]

Can't have 3 without 1.

1 is really short on story though. It's the most barebones.

I have a long running theory that they'd consider combining 1 & 3 together as a dual-protagonist dual-overlapping-timeline story where at certain moments you'd switch between Harry and Heather, and the Harry routes will be a heavily truncated version of the original in terms of levels and gameplay, and only one canon ending for him so that Heather makes sense. Though they may try and provide for an alternate fate for Cybil. Harry's route and ending would of course come just prior to Heather coming home to find him.

Or they'd go the MGS2 route, where you play only as Harry for the first 1/3 then switch to Heather for the latter 2/3rds of the game.

I would prefer they didn't do that and remade each on their own, but I feel they would go the combination route, if only because oh SH1. But you could cover SH1 quickly without excluding any of the story beats by eliminating many of the puzzles and winding routes and just keeping the good and memorable ones.

[WaffleMaker]

SH1 deserves its own title no doubt. But you’re right it could use the most fleshing out in terms of motives, dialogue etc.. but the mythology is where the meat is.

[Jonipoon]

1 is really short on story though.

It's the most barebones.I have a long running theory that they'd consider combining 1 & 3 together as a dual-protagonist dual-overlapping-timeline story where at certain moments you'd switch between Harry and Heather, and the Harry routes will be a heavily truncated version of the original in terms of levels and gameplay, and only one canon ending for him so that Heather makes sense. Though they may try and provide for an alternate fate for Cybil. Harry's route and ending would of course come just prior to Heather coming home to find him.

I wouldn't say it's that short on story. The issue is rather that the presentation is very confined, meaning that they packed a lot of lore and story into a rather short game. The upside is that a remake has the possibility to stretch out the game's length considerably without sacrificing its story, instead making it more accessible and graspable to players. It's no secret that the first game did turn quite a few players off because they didn't catch the story.

However, the real answer is of course to recycle the original dual protagonist plans for SH1 which included separate scenarios for Harry and Cybil, similar to Resident Evil 2's A and B scenario system. It would not only increase the game's length but greatly expand upon the game's story and lore by giving us more time to experience the events through the eyes of another protagonist. There's surprisingly lots of source material to work with, including Cybil's scenario from the Play Novel that could be used as inspiration.

I would honestly love to experience a full-fledged Cybil scenario for a Silent Hill 1 remake.

[WaffleMaker]

1 is really short on story though.

It's the most barebones.I have a long running theory that they'd consider combining 1 & 3 together as a dual-protagonist dual-overlapping-timeline story where at certain moments you'd switch between Harry and Heather, and the Harry routes will be a heavily truncated version of the original in terms of levels and gameplay, and only one canon ending for him so that Heather makes sense. Though they may try and provide for an alternate fate for Cybil. Harry's route and ending would of course come just prior to Heather coming home to find him.

I wouldn't say it's that short on story. The issue is rather that the presentation is very confined, meaning that they packed a lot of lore and story into a rather short game. The upside is that a remake has the possibility to stretch out the game's length considerably without sacrificing its story, instead making it more accessible and graspable to players. It's no secret that the first game did turn quite a few players off because they didn't catch the story.

However, the real answer is of course to recycle the original dual protagonist plans for SH1 which included separate scenarios for Harry and Cybil, similar to Resident Evil 2's A and B scenario system. It would not only increase the game's length but greatly expand upon the game's story and lore by giving us more time to experience the events through the eyes of another protagonist. There's surprisingly lots of source material to work with, including Cybil's scenario from the Play Novel that could be used as inspiration.

I would honestly love to experience a full-fledged Cybil scenario for a Silent Hill 1 remake.

That sounds pretty awesome but I feel like she’d have to be expanded beyond her “mentor” role in the story. Totally doable.

[leftshoe18]

I would absolutely love a Silent Hill 1 remake before we get anything else on the remake front. I've always dreamed of a version of SH that included Cybil as a second playable character and either having a story where you switch back and forth between her and Harry or a RE2 A/B scenario would be really cool. As others have mentioned, SH3 works better with the context of SH so it would be disappointing to jump directly into that as the next remake (if there is a next remake that is).

[Jonipoon]

>That sounds pretty awesome but I feel like she’d have to be expanded beyond her “mentor” role in the story. Totally doable.

I agree, and the Play Novel is pretty strange in general (not to mention inconsistent) so it wouldn't work as a direct adaptation for a Cybil scenario anyway. It did however raise a few interesting aspects such as hinting at Cybil's own traumatic past. It didn't explore it well enough, though.

I also feel like the long lost charater of Andy could be utilized more in a Cybil scenario. I just found it hilarious that he somehow made it to Silent Hill by hiding in Harry's car, lol. THAT part would have to be changed for a remake, if he's in it.

[Chris Sunderland]

I don't really care about added scenarios either way but I'd love the map to be more explorable and the existing areas improved/expanded. When I say improved I mean the sewers. Really I'd love to experience SH1 s story with better voice acting and improved cinematic flair.

[Droo]

Moving this to Silent Hill 2.0, as it's not really about SH2R.

[Jonipoon]

Shouldn't this forum simply be called something like "Silent Hill Rumors and Speculation"? Not sure if "2.0" has any meaning no longer. Just a small notion, it rolls off the tongue easier.

[jdnation]

Basically, they'd be forced by the standard set by SH2 Remake to include new content and stretch the story.

Yeah, having a Cybil route would be cool. They have room to expand using her, and doing a switchable Leon/Claire route thing. She could also meet other characters that Harry doesn't.

All the monsters and Otherworld are Alessa's anyway, so they don't have change anything to accomodate new characters. But they might need new insect bosses for Cybil.

Then there is the angle to consider with Kaufmann and the drug stuff, so story wise they'd have to be careful.

Of course there's the final boss. If Cybil lives, then it would neccesitate that your second protagonist gets something more to do at the finale. Maybe having her holding the fort against hordes while Harry and the baby escape... but... that makes no sense once Alessa/Demon has already been dealt with, so the monsters shouldn't exist, and Harry absolutely needs to be the one who defeats the final boss.

So, instead, have Cybil's route end prior to Harry's, likely against Kaufmann or another new character/Kaufmann henchman or cult member/Alessa devotee alongside some unique insect monster or whatever else Alessa fears at the amusement park, and then she gets possesed leading up to Harry finding her and determining if she meets a tragic end or not.

In fact, maybe she even tags along beside Harry as AI throughout nowhere so they are both together right up to the finale. Although I think that might kill the lonely horror aspect of the gameplay, so it'd be a good idea to somehow separate them for a duration until they meet again, maybe even switchable puzzles involving two people on separate ends helping each other out similar to Resident Evil 0's Billy and Rebecca.

[Chris Sunderland]

See none of that interests me. I do think you can do too much in a remake. I don't hate the idea of Cybil being playable but keep it simple. Really would want them to keep that strong isolation feel of SH1. No bailing Jillbil out of jail before you fight the Tyrant S-amauel.

[jdnation]

Well if there is some canon stuff in the play novel, I wouldn't mind a short Cybil unlockable chapter like Maria's Born From a Wish scenario.

[Jonipoon]

If Cybil is an AI side-kick during Harry's fight with the final boss and vice versa, it would work. And if that's the only part of the game where you have an AI side-kick aiding you, I don't think it would defeat the lonely horror aspect of gameplay that much. The final boss area is already filled with basically every character anyway; Dahlia, Alessa, Harry, Cybil, Kaufmann, Lisa - they're all there in that scene. Regardless, in both Harry's and Cybil's scenario you could simply end the fight with a cutscene that shows Harry doing the final killing blow - and voila, you have not disrupted canon and what comes after in SH3.

An alternate, non-canon route for Cybil's scenario to go down would be if Harry's the one who's infected with a parasite instead - meaning that it would be possible for Harry to die and therefore leaving Cybil as the one who has to defeat God and rescue baby Heather. Talk about crazy.

I also love the idea of adding new boss battles for Cybil to fight based on Alessa's fears. A giant spider, locust, snail, and/or dragonfly?

[Herr Shaun]

I'd love for 1 to be next. My only concern is that despite being on PSX, Silent Hill 1 has the best environmental ambience of any of the games. I've seen fangames try to remake it with new engines and assets and they invariably add some cliche bullshit that ruins it. Depending on how Bloober Team does with 2, I'd like to see what they can do with 1.

[Jonipoon]

As impressive as many fangames can be based on their limited resources, I am yet to come across one that actually feels like a "real game". There's always something that looks, sounds, or plays strangely - Regardless of which franchise it is based on.

There's no denying however that the environmental ambience from SH1 is partly related to retro nostalgia. Demakes of modern games that makes them look and play like PS1 era games are a thing nowadays, and I have to confess that seeing those sometimes makes me giggle out of excitement. So when remaking SH1 it's important to respect the source while acknowleding that the environmental ambience is going to feel extremely different with modern technology and graphics, and that's something we have to embrace.

The strength of the series has always been its sound effects, though, and getting those right is the key to ultimate success.

[jdnation]

As impressive as many fangames can be based on their limited resources, I am yet to come across one that actually feels like a "real game". There's always something that looks, sounds, or plays strangely - Regardless of which franchise it is based on.

There's no denying however that the environmental ambience from SH1 is partly related to retro nostalgia. Demakes of modern games that makes them look and play like PS1 era games are a thing nowadays, and I have to confess that seeing those sometimes makes me giggle out of excitement. So when remaking SH1 it's important to respect the source while acknowleding that the environmental ambience is going to feel extremely different with modern technology and graphics, and that's something we have to embrace.

The strength of the series has always been its sound effects, though, and getting those right is the key to ultimate success.

There is a thing here you've said that I've been wanting to emphasize in this thread about Hexadrive's pitch for remaking SH2 before it being given to Bloober.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27014

I'd said...

What I prefer about Hexadrive's pitch, is the more 'retro' feel.

The item displays, and the fact that James model here is closer if not more spot-on to the original, and in what feels like a twist, the environments, lighting and aesthetics are not overly as realistic or as detailed as Bloober's, everything aside from the camera feels like the PS2 original, and that tickles my nostalgia in just the right way as a balance between the original and a remake. It has a stylization that works!

Just watching James running around the apartments and examining items is doing a lot more to sell me on Hexadrive's pitch than Bloober showing me an entire trailer of James going Leon Kennedy on enemies.

I don't like the trends where remakes have to "modernize" everything. Retro products should preserve some of the qualities of their time.

If Konami gave me the opportunity to remake a Metal Gear game, I'd choose to remake the classic MSX titles in the style of MGS1 from the PSOne. Top down camera, classic movset and tools, but with modern animation, a seamless wide linear level design, and push the lighting, environment and character graphics to feel like a photorealistic diorama. I'd also direct the cutscene story moments as similar to the Ac!d series with pantomime and artistic character portraits with voiced text boxes, saving fully animated cutscenes for a handful of significant story moments.

I feel a similar approach would also work for SH, even with a modern 3rd person camera. Though I would have the options for the classic fixed camera and also first person included. Why not?

I hope Hexadrive gets a shot at remaking SH1. If Bloober's SH2 is successful, they can try 3.

viewtopic.php?p=700275#p700275

I'd watched a recent SuperEyepatchWolf video recently on the phenomenon of fake video games, and there's a specific quote here that summarizes this and why many indy titles go for the retro-feeling of using dated game mechanics, design and visual artifacts and older generation limitation stylings in their art direction. Apropos, this point is made overlaid on top of Silent Hill 1 in the video where he quotes someone else:

"Whatever you now find weird, ugly, uncomfortable and nasty about a new medium will surely become it's signature. CD Distortion, the jitteriness of digital video, the crap sound of 8-bit - all of these will be cherished and emulated as soon as they can be avoided."

It's a great video if anyone wants to watch the whole thing, the relevant point comes in in the chapter about Nostalgia, roughly 27 mins in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8GnM5xD1k4

The demake phenomenon works well in favor of horror, and particularly for a title like Silent Hill, where a yearning for nostalgic times through the limitations of old media becomes very comfortable and desirable, and not only for those who remember those times, but they also take on an intriguing new language for new generations.

Nintendo in particular finds a great balance making new games with a lot of throwback art direction, as they did recently with the New Zelda Echoes game being in the Link to the Past style, and even the Dragon Quest Remakes maintain that feeling.

Just as films have a particular style that defines 'period' filmmaking, whether it's Tarantino using Cinemascope widescreen ratios in modern films that are particularly period-set, video-games also have their 'period' setting techniques of their era, that mixed with modern conventions become very very cool. Signalis, being a good example, and also recently one called Crow County.

So when I look at Hexadrive's original pitch versus Bloober's final version, I lean more towards Hexadrive's style which while running on modern tools, preserves the feeling of throwback design in style and gameplay, and that for me nails down what I would prefer remakes of the PS2 SH games to be.

I actually do think that Konami and other studios, including Capcom think too much, about what would sell to 'modern audiences' that they are likely spending far more money than they ought to when something more scaled back would work, though arguably, Capcom's remakes have been a very big success, but they have the chops to make it in house, versus Konami who are more risk averse, understandably with a franchise that doesn't feel right taken in a more RE approach, though Capcom also learned they were going to far with RE6 in an absurd action parody direction.

When remaking Silent Hill 1, I would go more with that idea, and even take advantage of the limitations. They could actually get closer to realistic graphics in a SH1 remake if they forewent unnecessarily elaborate level redesigning as Bloober has done, just by sticking to the same general layouts of the original, and like Metal Gear Delta, only upgrading the same environments. The fog and blackness of Dark SH would create less need to render further away than necessary and with a smaller draw distance, you'd get to render more detail in the environments and character and creatures.

Have a mode for classic fixed camera (with option for tank or directional controls) and new 3rd person camera and even a first person option. Budget-permitting, I'd even add VR support for the first person mode for PC headsets and PSVR2.

I wouldn't redesign the levels for 3rd or 1st person mode, I'd allow that jank to remain for the player to struggle with, which still won't be anywhere as difficult as the original for newcomers.

At best, only the cutscenes and dialogue will be redone and rewritten, but I'd take the risk of not using pro-actors, and allow the performances to be, not crap, but not polished either. There'd ideally be a nice in-between sweet spot that can be accomplished by having the cast repeat the performance multiple times and go with mixing the best ones from different takes, possible thanks to the digital capture.

If I'm adding VR, I'd even shoot a separate take of unique cutscenes specifically for VR.

The small scale nature of the game would be great where you can be both retro and lower budget and ambitious with your options.

[Burning Man]

I like the enthusiasm, but bringing up "demake" and retro and then talking about "realistic graphics" seems to hurt the point you're trying to make.

The camera mode is an interesting area for discussion. That one developer from Bloober Team talked about the challenge in supporting the over-the-shoulder angle compared to the classic third-person, fixed-camera angle. Accordingly, supporting the fixed-camera angle would have been easier because the developer had full control over what the player sees, whereas the implication seems to be that the over-the-shoulder angle necessitates her having to give attention to everything the player might be able to see.

So, adding support for both angles seems to be a lot of effort. It also means that Konami would need to spend twice the amount of Quality Assurance resources to test both cases.