Valtiel's role?

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The Adversary
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Post by The Adversary »

What the Lars is so difficult about typing five zero's?. . . .
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
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Post by lain of the wired »

^Same thing that makes it so difficult to differentiate an "L" from an "I" and spell "wired," I imagine.

Actually, I kinda like the idea of the Red Devil being akin to James' PH, myself. The only problem I see with it is that PH is conventionally a punisher manifest of James's guilt, and as a psychopath, it seems strange to me that Walter might feel much guilt for what he did. I suppose, with all the twins running around, there is some element of guilt, but that can probably be explained by the fact that they were children and generally seen as innocents, while he was supposed to gather the blood of sinners... but if this is so, isn't that element of guilt then covered by the twins running amok?
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Post by -Qwerty- »

lain of the wired wrote:Actually, I kinda like the idea of the Red Devil being akin to James' PH, myself. The only problem I see with it is that PH is conventionally a punisher manifest of James's guilt, and as a psychopath, it seems strange to me that Walter might feel much guilt for what he did. I suppose, with all the twins running around, there is some element of guilt, but that can probably be explained by the fact that they were children and generally seen as innocents, while he was supposed to gather the blood of sinners... but if this is so, isn't that element of guilt then covered by the twins running amok?
I'm not 100% sure of what your trying to say but here it goes..

Since the Red Pyramid Thing was James' creation through the town, does that mean James feels guilty for murdering an executioner? No. Walter's manifestation of the Red Devil could've been from his fear &/or hatred of Jimmy Stone.
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Post by lain of the wired »

Ah, ok ok, I see now. They're not supposed to be cookie-cut games, are they? Well then, I guess there's nothing keeping me from liking that theory anymore. :)
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Post by the fifth survivor »

well, is it not possable that Valtiel was inside Dahlia? or, aslo plausable, Alyssa? and whats to say he didnt have a hand in silent hill 2? if you read into it to deeply, everything is suspecius.
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Post by -Qwerty- »

Actually, I was trying to do the opposite—trying not to look into things deeply. This discussion was talking about how Valtiel wasn't involved with Walter's 'Red Devil' because if he was, it would just make things more complicated.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

well, is it not possable that Valtiel was inside Dahlia? or, aslo plausable, Alyssa? and whats to say he didnt have a hand in silent hill 2? if you read into it to deeply, everything is suspecius.
ALESSA was impregnated with God. I don't think there's room for Valtiel. And Dahlia has no reason to bear any connection to Valtiel, especially since she's from an opposing sect.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Bobandjim1260 »

To those asking why Valtiel can be in two places at once. It's because Valtiel, like everything else in Silent Hill, is nothing but a manifestation. Valtiel, like God, is an idea made manifest, not an actual entity. Similar to the two Pyramid Head's that manifest. It's technically one entity, manifest through guilt. However, with the guilt of both Maria and Mary on Jame's shoulders, two manifested in accordance to this pain. It would be as if two people from Silent Hill manifested Donald Duck. They'd exist and act differently because they were manifested under different beliefs. So in some sense, the two that manifested could also theoretically look and act completely different from each other and still technically be Valtiel in the eyes of whom it manifested for. I'd give more analogies but I feel you've gotten the point.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by AuraTwilight »

Wow, that ten year old thread necro.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Pastucci »

^
His post was relevant for the necro bump, but I believe Valtiel was not involved in sh4 at all. The Red Devil is more likely Jimmy Stone, not Valtiel.

Valtiel's role/purpose is surveillance, keeping an eye on things, not possessing people.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by AuraTwilight »

Pastucci wrote:^
His post was relevant for the necro bump, but I believe Valtiel was not involved in sh4 at all. The Red Devil is more likely Jimmy Stone, not Valtiel.

Valtiel's role/purpose is surveillance, keeping an eye on things, not possessing people.
Nobody's technically proposing possession, at least not in the classical sense. It's more akin to the Vodun tradition where someone roleplays a god in a ceremony and are considered to have literally become that deity for the sake of making the ritual valid. Considering the Order's syncretic nature, this seems the intent.


Essentially, the spirit of Valtiel would be observing from inside Walter's mind as a witness, lending him its authority to do the 21 Sacraments.
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Post by Pastucci »

^
I hear you, but when I play the games, I never saw Walter as being influenced by Valtiel at all, to me Walter was fully in control of his actions, he hated the world and wanted to be with his mother, as far as the Red Devil thing, it was a scapegoat, not any kind of influencing by divine beings. Most serial killers lie about their crimes, blaming anything else for the actions. Walter was simply blaming Jimmy Stone or perhaps even the Cult itself for"making him do it". Valtiel is never referred to as Red Devil or even a Watchful Demon. And Translated Memories should be taken with a grain of salt, not to be trusted.

I could be wrong though, and if I am, then I will gladly apologize.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by mikefile »

Pastucci wrote:I hear you, but when I play the games, I never saw Walter as being influenced by Valtiel at all
Well, you couldn't even if you wanted to. Valtiel left Walter years after the events of SH4.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by AuraTwilight »

Pastucci wrote:I hear you, but when I play the games, I never saw Walter as being influenced by Valtiel at all, to me Walter was fully in control of his actions
Because he was. That's what I'm trying to tell you. He was acting as a vessel so Valtiel could be a witness, not to control or influence his actions. By Valtiel being inside him while he does the Sacraments, he could make them valid sacrifices instead of mere murders, and elevate himself to a higher being as a ghost. He was quite literally acting in Valtiel's role.

It's like when a Christian priest performs a faith healing and claims it's because the Holy Spirit was working through him.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Bobandjim1260 »

Interesting, while there is no doubt Walter's murders were attributed to Valtiel, I though the thread was about the confusion of Valtiel's role. This is an answer I thought to be rather obvious. Valtiel's role changes depending on the view of what he is supposed to be. If someone's view of Valtiel was that he was a pop singer, he'd manifest as a pop singer. It's because Valtiel is, like everything else in Silent Hill, not an actual creature that is using people to manifest. It's individuals using their beliefs in combination with their own subconscious that he's created. So again, it's the idea that's manifested into reality due to it's acknowledgment. It's not an actual being with it's own personal agenda per say.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Pastucci »

Again, I get what you are saying. But we do not know how the 21 Sacraments were actually done specifically, all we know as gamers is that Walter followed the teachings in the book. The 21 sacraments may not be the same as the crimson ceremony in SH2. I know it is popularly believed that the crimson one is the red god aka valtiel, but there is no proof. Therefore there is no evidence that Valtiel is the one involved or mentioned in the 21 sacraments ritual.

The Christian priest analogy is good, and Valtiel is a messenger of God aka an angel and thus a guardian of sorts to make sure rituals get completed, I get that too. But in SH4 there is no mention of him. At all. If we believe that the religion of SH is polytheistic, then any one of the gods and angels could be involved or watchful of the Descent of the Holy Mother 21 Sacraments.

It is my speculation that this ritual worked for Walter not because of gods or angels, but simply because Walter was willing to actually follow through with it all while the other children were not. Belief is powerful enough on its own merit for rituals to work. Basically because Walter believed it would work, it did. But I am open minded, so Divine intervention is possible here, but I still believe Valtiel was not involved, it may have been The Crimson One, but that was in SH2, not this game.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by mikefile »

Pastucci wrote:But in SH4 there is no mention of him. At all.
I suggest you take a look at "The Sullivan Victims" section of the Translated Memories site.
Translated Memories - The Sullivan Victims - 06/21 - pg.2 wrote:He succeeded in having Valtiel sneaked into this person's unconsciousness to permit the 21 sacraments to take place.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Pastucci »

^
That site isn't accurate, there are mistranslations all in it, The Adversary even said it is and isn't an accurate website so to me, that means I don't acknowledge it as a true source.

I think I made a thread about that before, but silenthillchronicle.net is the only site that is good.

Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree here, since I am going by the game itself, not translated memories.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by AuraTwilight »

Pastucci wrote:^
That site isn't accurate, there are mistranslations all in it, The Adversary even said it is and isn't an accurate website so to me, that means I don't acknowledge it as a true source.

I think I made a thread about that before, but silenthillchronicle.net is the only site that is good.

Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree here, since I am going by the game itself, not translated memories.
I'm not sure there's many ways to misconstrue "Valtiel was put into Walter's unconsciousness so he could do the 21 Sacraments." The word 'Valtiel' and 'Walter's unconsciousness' are totally in the text regardless, so you can't really shift the goalposts like this.
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Re: Valtiel's role?

Post by Pastucci »

Translated memories is not an accurate site, anything written on it is not accurate in my opinion.
I know what the site says about Walter and valtiel, but again it is not true.

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I'm just going to have to disagree with what the majority of fans believe about this, sorry.

If Ito himself says that I am wrong, then I am wrong, I'll admit to my mistake.

I'm kinda like that person in the jury who doesn't just go along with a group decision that is based on questionable or shaky evidence, there has to be a good quality source and translated memories is not a good quality source.

So anything and everything written on that website is not true.

Basically I'm saying that translated memories is bullshit.

Translated memories is inaccurate, silent hill chronicles is accurate
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